The curious case of John 5:4

[Matthias]

Are you familiar with Justin Martyr @GodsGrace?

Justin Martyr - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A second century Christian apologist who lived c. A.D. 100 - 165. He was a pagan philosopher who converted to Christianity.

“When Justin argues against Jewish monotheists in the Dialogue, he insists that there is a ‘second God’ … and that this is Christ.”

(Robert M. Grant, Jesus After the Gospels: The Christ of the Second Century, p. 65)

Justin is speaking with a Jewish monotheist, a man named Trypho, who does not believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah. I’m a Jewish monotheist who believes that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah. Otherwise, Justin is speaking to me today in his writing.

What did Justin think about Jewish Chritianity?

“Justin tolerated [Jewish Christianity] but did not regard as fully orthodox (Dialogue 45-47).”

(Ibid. p. 65)

“Fully orthodox” for Justin isn’t at all what is contained in the Nicene Creed.

A rhetorical question: Is Justin, who knew nothing whatsoever about the Nicene Creed, a Christian?

A second rhetorical question: Would a Jew who lived prior to the fourth century and knew nothing whatsoever about the Nicene Creed but believed that Jesus is the promised Messiah, be or not be considered a Christian?

 

[Matthias]

The early theologians took a lot of time to free the church from heresies...which were abundant.

How early would you say that began?

Creeds were necessary to set this standard I'm speaking of. They were absolutely necessary or we would never have
our Christian faith today....

My only creed is the Shema, “the fundamental confession of Judaism and of the lord Jesus Christ.” I have Christian faith today.

it would have been lost among the differing ideas.

Offered for your consideration: Jewish monotheism (my Christian faith) was lost among the differing ideas that later produced the Christian Creeds.

 

[Matthias]

@GodsGrace would you consider slowly walking through the Apostles’ Creed with me? If I could express agreement with that particular creed [even though my conscience doesn’t allow me to express agreement with much that is written in the Nicene Creed - are you surprised that I can agree with any part of the Nicene Creed?] would you be open to entertaining even the possibility that I am or might be a Christian?

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace would you consider slowly walking through the Apostles’ Creed with me? If I could express agreement with that particular creed [even though my conscience doesn’t allow me to express agreement with much that is written in the Nicene Creed - are you surprised that I can agree with any part of the Nicene Creed?] would you be open to entertaining even the possibility that I am or might be a Christian?

Hi M
Just going through my alerts.
Been really busy.
Won't be able to post till about my 3pm today,
Sunday. Not ignoring you. Later.

 

[GodsGrace]

@Matthias
Just tried to PM you....it won't go thru.
I accept PM's, would you be willing to PM me to explain EXACTLY
what it is you'd like to discuss? Sometimes I think we agree,
and at other times it feels like we don't. I'm a little confused.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace would you consider slowly walking through the Apostles’ Creed with me? If I could express agreement with that particular creed [even though my conscience doesn’t allow me to express agreement with much that is written in the Nicene Creed - are you surprised that I can agree with any part of the Nicene Creed?] would you be open to entertaining even the possibility that I am or might be a Christian?

OK
Let's go through the Apostle's Creed.

Here it is:

I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried;
he descended into hell;
on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen


*****************************************************************************************
I BELIEVE IN GOD
By this I understand it to mean the Almighty God, the Father,
The God that had the idea to create everything we see (and even what we do not see).
The God which the native American Indians might have called THE GREAT SPIRIT...
The One and Only God.

 

[Matthias]

@Matthias
Just tried to PM you....it won't go thru.
I accept PM's, would you be willing to PM me to explain EXACTLY
what it is you'd like to discuss? Sometimes I think we agree,
and at other times it feels like we don't. I'm a little confused.

For a number of reasons (which I won’t go into here), I don’t communicate with others on forums by private messages. It’s nothing personal.

You mentioned earlier that you agree with the post-biblical creeds, with one exception. I was thinking about that yesterday and about how discussing them in anything beyond a general way would most likely cause us to violate current board policy. I don’t think that’s the case with the Apostles’ Creed.

 

[GodsGrace]

For a number of reasons (which I won’t go into here), I don’t communicate with others on forums by private messages. It’s nothing personal.

You mentioned earlier that you agree with the post-biblical creeds, with one exception. I was thinking about that yesterday and about how discussing them in anything beyond a general way would most likely cause us to violate current board policy. I don’t think that’s the case with the Apostles’ Creed.

Hmmmm. I can't think of which exeption,,,but no matter.
We could concentrate on the Apostles Creed.
I'm also going to go thru your posts now....

 

[GodsGrace]

You’re probably thinking of the Athanasian Creed.

Athanasian Creed

See line 38 in the link.

Oh. I see, I said an entire creed...I mean just the wording of HE DESCENDED INTO HELL....
Sorry 'bout that.

I think I mentioned that HELL was mistranslated and it really meant either hades or maybe sheol....
Jesus could not be present in hell....

I was raised Southern Baptist. We didn’t recite the creeds. Ironically, it was a Bible study lead by my Baptist pastor that introduced me to them and caused me to look deeply into Church history.

The CC recites the Nicene Creed at every Mass.
It basically just states what Christians are SUPPOSED to believe.
It was a guide in the early church --- am sure you know all this.

If the creeds are in the NT wouldn’t you have your faith today without them?

The creeds are biblical.
I would have my faith today even without them.
But they express what Christians believe...or at least the basics of what they believe.

 

[Matthias]

OK
Let's go through the Apostle's Creed.

Here it is:

I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,

I’d like to start with this. If you were to ask me who I believe the creator of heaven and earth is, this is precisely what I would tell you. The creation is the work of my God and Father. No one else.

 

[GodsGrace]

That which by board policy cannot be discussed.

When the Church began taking the gospel to the gentiles it ran into Hellenism. When apologists began using Greek philosophical terminology (terminology which isn’t used in the Bible), Jewish monotheism was destroyed. (Gregory of Nyssa is adamant on this point.) The church that had been predominantly comprised of Jews gradually shifted to being predominantly comprised of gentiles. Greek thought replaced Hebraic thought.

As I think we already stated,,,,the Jewish believers in Jesus as Messiah HAD to leave the synagogue.
They believed in Jesus as MESSIAH.
But they saw that He was also more. The early church struggled with understanding who Jesus was.
The Early Fathers did speak about Him as being God,,,,I think it took some time to come to a final conclusion....
I'm sure the ECFs put much more thought into this than any one of us could possibly do today....due to the fact that
what they would teach, and even put into writing (a creed) would forever describe Christianity...which title began to be used in Antioch in about 107 if memory serves. By Ignatius I believe.

Terminology had to be invented and probably, as you say, the Greek thought process got mixed into the fold.
I'm not sure - or I don't understand - why this should be a problem since I believe every aspect of the creeds is found in the NT.

If I'm wrong, I do wish you'd point out a specific belief that is in the Creeds (any one of them) that is not in the NT.

 

[GodsGrace]

I’d like to start with this. If you were to ask me who I believe the creator of heaven and earth is, this is precisely what I would tell you. The creation is the work of my God and Father. No one else.

Who is the LET US in Genesis?
Different theories....I'll leave it at that.

What does John 1:1-3 mean?
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Also, Hebrews 1:1-2 and one other verse I could think of. And there are probably more...

 

[Matthias]

The CC recites the Nicene Creed at every Mass.

My wife’s family is Roman Catholic.

It basically just states what Christians are SUPPOSED to believe.

Southern Baptist’s aren’t creedal. They don’t use creeds. They don’t recite creeds. I grew up in the Church without knowing anything about creeds - I didn’t even know they existed, until one day I attended a Bible study where our pastor told us about them.

It was a guide in the early church --- am sure you know all this.

How early in the Church?

The creeds are biblical.

The creeds are extra-biblical and post-biblical. They were produced centuries after biblical times by the Church. They address issues which didn’t come up in the days of the Apostles.

I would have my faith today even without them.

Then would you be willing to set them aside?

But they express what Christians believe...or at least the basics of what they believe.

Have you by chance read Father Edmund J. Fortman’s book The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity?

 

[Matthias]

As I think we already stated,,,,the Jewish believers in Jesus as Messiah HAD to leave the synagogue.
They believed in Jesus as MESSIAH.
But they saw that He was also more. The early church struggled with understanding who Jesus was.
The Early Fathers did speak about Him as being God,,,,I think it took some time to come to a final conclusion....
I'm sure the ECFs put much more thought into this than any one of us could possibly do today....due to the fact that
what they would teach, and even put into writing (a creed) would forever describe Christianity...which title began to be used in Antioch in about 107 if memory serves. By Ignatius I believe.

Terminology had to be invented and probably, as you say, the Greek thought process got mixed into the fold.
I'm not sure - or I don't understand - why this should be a problem since I believe every aspect of the creeds is found in the NT.

If I'm wrong, I do wish you'd point out a specific belief that is in the Creeds (any one of them) that is not in the NT.

Why did terminology have to be invented? Why is the terminology contained in the Bible (OT and NT) not sufficient?

 

[GodsGrace]

No. The scribe was a Jewish monotheist who lived 300 years before there was a Nicene creed.

The creed of the Jewish scribe (and of Jesus) is the creed of Judaism.

”1. The one God. (a)theos is the most frequent designation of God in the NT. Belief in the one, only, and unique God (Matt. 23:9; Rom. 3:30; 1 Cor. 8:4,6; Gal. 3:20; 1 Tim. 2:5; Jas. 2:19) is an established part of Christian tradition. Jesus himself made the fundamental confession of Jud. his own and expressly quoted the Shema(Deut. 6:4-5; see Mk. 12:29-30; cf. Matt. 22:37; Lk. 10:27). This guaranteed continuity between the old and the new covenants. The God whom Christians worship is the God of the fathers (Acts 3:13; 5:30; 22:14), the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Acts 3:13; 7:32; cf. Matt. 22:32; Mk. 12:26; Lk. 20:37), the God of Israel (Matt. 15:31; Lk. 1:68; Acts 13:17), and the God of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 1 Pet. 1:3).”

(New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Abridged Edition, p. 244)

I carried this around with me for decades @GodsGrace. This is Jewish monotheism -> “ the fundamental confession of Judaism”.

I’m bound in conscience to this constraint of history. Another way of saying it is that I have not progressed in my belief from the fundamental unitarian creed of Judaism to the fundamental trinitarian creed of Nicene Christianity. I’m “stuck” or “stalled”, if you will, in the first century Jewish sect of Jesus and his earliest followers. You’ve been able to advance beyond that to the fourth and fifth century creeds of Christianity.

Are we worshipping a man then?
Didn't our forefathers study enough and discuss enough so that we could be unstuck?
Jesus earliest followers, including His Apostles, had to come to grips with who He was.
None of them really understood till after the resurrection, which proved all that Jesus was and taught to be correct.
AFTER the resurrection Thomas cried My Lord and My God.....was this added later on or do we want to at least trust these most important statement made in the NT?

I think I've been able to "advance" because I have an understanding of how God could be more than one Person....
If a person doesn't ever come to some kind of understanding....he'll always misunderstand.
Misunderstand the Triunness (new word) of God.

This circumstance hasn’t caused either one of us to question the reliability of the Bible.

I believe the NT has some error in it, but not of the type that would go to this discussion.

Now a rhetorical question: If one must believe the creeds of the fourth and fifth century in order to be considered a Christian - if the affirmation of those creeds is what we’re going to say is what defines who is and who is not a Christian - where does that leave the followers of Jesus who lived prior to the fourth century?

But I think they believed the same as what the creeds state...it was just clarified.

Ignatius of Antioch​

“Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

Aristides​

“[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the Creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit” (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).

Tatian the Syrian​

“We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man” (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]).

Melito of Sardis​

“The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages” (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai’s The Guide 13 [A.D. 177]).

Irenaeus​

“For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to reestablish all things; and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth” (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

source: What the Early Church Believed: The Divinity of Christ

 

[Matthias]

Who is the LET US in Genesis?
Different theories....I'll leave it at that.

Since you’re leaving it at that I’ll leave it at that also.

I’ll go back to what the Apostles’ Creed says and restate that it expresses my belief about who the creator of the heavens and the earth is. Considering this part of the creed alone, can we agree that my agreement with it is Christian?

What does John 1:1-3 mean?
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Would you allow another translation of verses 1-3 to be considered?

Also, Hebrews 1:1-2 and one other verse I could think of. And there are probably more...

Would you post a translation of Hebrews 1:1-2 that you agree with for my consideration? I would like to ask you a question about it but I would like to pose it using the English language of translation of your choosing.

 

[Matthias]

Are we worshipping a man then?
Didn't our forefathers study enough and discuss enough so that we could be unstuck?
Jesus earliest followers, including His Apostles, had to come to grips with who He was.
None of them really understood till after the resurrection, which proved all that Jesus was and taught to be correct.
AFTER the resurrection Thomas cried My Lord and My God.....was this added later on or do we want to at least trust these most important statement made in the NT?

I think I've been able to "advance" because I have an understanding of how God could be more than one Person....
If a person doesn't ever come to some kind of understanding....he'll always misunderstand.
Misunderstand the Triunness (new word) of God.


I believe the NT has some error in it, but not of the type that would go to this discussion.

But I think they believed the same as what the creeds state...it was just clarified.

Ignatius of Antioch​

“Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

Aristides​

“[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the Creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit” (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).

Tatian the Syrian​

“We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man” (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]).

Melito of Sardis​

“The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages” (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai’s The Guide 13 [A.D. 177]).

Irenaeus​

“For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to reestablish all things; and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth” (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

source: What the Early Church Believed: The Divinity of Christ

Your post is too long for me to respond to without an even larger post.

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you familiar with Justin Martyr @GodsGrace?

Justin Martyr - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A second century Christian apologist who lived c. A.D. 100 - 165. He was a pagan philosopher who converted to Christianity.

“When Justin argues against Jewish monotheists in the Dialogue, he insists that there is a ‘second God’ … and that this is Christ.”

(Robert M. Grant, Jesus After the Gospels: The Christ of the Second Century, p. 65)

Justin is speaking with a Jewish monotheist, a man named Trypho, who does not believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah. I’m a Jewish monotheist who believes that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah. Otherwise, Justin is speaking to me today in his writing.

What did Justin think about Jewish Chritianity?

“Justin tolerated [Jewish Christianity] but did not regard as fully orthodox (Dialogue 45-47).”

(Ibid. p. 65)

“Fully orthodox” for Justin isn’t at all what is contained in the Nicene Creed.

Justin I'm familiar with.

I always chuckle inside when I hear someone saying that the doctrine of the Trinity originated in 325 AD at Nicea. Sometimes they even suggest that it was only after Christianity fell under the sway of evil emperor Constantine that anyone ever thought that Jesus was God and that the whole thing was politically motivated. While it is true that some of the more developed Trinitarian language and technical distinctions were worked out much later, after centuries of careful reflection and debate, the basic outlines of Trinitarian doctrine are in the pages of the New Testament. Scripture set the axioms, and as Christians talked, the logical requirements of these axioms became clearer and the theological language necessary to express these requirements began to develop.

Jesus is God. At several points, Justin lists names that the scriptures, as he reads them, give to the Messiah. He is called an “angel,” for instance, because he is brings a message from God (ἄγγελος = messenger) and “Lord” because of his authority. Along with these titles, Justin insists that the Messiah is God: “Permit me, further, to show you from the book of Exodus how this same One, who is both Angel, and God, and Lord, and man…” (§59. Cf. §§60,61,127,129). We can notice throughout that Justin is not content to say that the Messiah is merely “divine,” but rather insists that he is the “Son who is God (Θεὸν ὄντα Ὑιόν)” (§127).

source: Justin Martyr on the Trinity

A rhetorical question: Is Justin, who knew nothing whatsoever about the Nicene Creed, a Christian?

The question is:
Did he know what the creeds declare?
Other ECFs did....exactly what each one believed would require much study.

A second rhetorical question: Would a Jew who lived prior to the fourth century and knew nothing whatsoever about the Nicene Creed but believed that Jesus is the promised Messiah, be or not be considered a Christian?

I do believe that saying Jesus is the Messiah and stopping at that would not be sufficient.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

When is the last time you read this passage of scripture?

Some people read the Bible cover to cover and have never read it. If the translation you use is one of the following, you won’t have read it and may not even be aware of it: CJB, DLNT, ERV, GNT, NABRE, NIV, NIVUK, and TLV.

John 5:4 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

I spoke with a concerned student some years back who encountered this curious case and came to me on the verge of losing his trust in the reliability of Bible. As I recall, the student (who had read only the NIV) had been completely unaware of the “problem” until a Muslim he was evangelizing pointed it out to him.

Would you, the reader, have been able to help the shaken student? If you would, how would you go about it?

Whether the verse was in the original text or not, people believed in the likely rare healing of the Bethseda pool to the point where crowds stormed the pool and did not allow this man to get in, being disabled and slow. And I am sure that any prior healings in this pool were ordained by God for the purpose that ultimately led to Jesus miracle.
The main point is people sought the healing from a pool (that did likely at times healed); but that Jesus is the source of healing. His act of healing was to redirect people to turn to Him, instead of a pool where there was no guarantee.

JESUS demonstrated the power and authority of immediate healing.
The Pool symbolically represented
limitations of common faith in this physical world, as in contrast with the certainty of faith in Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

How early would you say that began?

Heresies began while the Apostles were still alive...
John was concerned about the gnostics and refers to them in his letter...
1 John 2:19 IF THEY WERE OF US THEY WOULD NOT HAVE LEFT US.....

My only creed is the Shema, “the fundamental confession of Judaism and of the lord Jesus Christ.” I have Christian faith today.

Why aren't you Jewish?

Offered for your consideration: Jewish monotheism (my Christian faith) was lost among the differing ideas that later produced the Christian Creeds.

Could you post some ECFs that agree with you?
That believe that Jesus was only the Messiah?