Daniel Chapter 8 - the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy

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Douggg

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You are stuck on the "time of the end", when the gospel will have been preached to all the world.
Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

We are living in the time of the end. People driving cars all over the place. The age of the internet source of knowledge increased. In the parable of the fig tree generation that shall not pass without all of the time of the end prophecies being fulfilled.

Israel a nation again back in the land and fore front in the news everyday, and Jerusalem its capital.

It will not be long until the identity of the little horn person can be determined. Who will at one stage (stage 3) of his development becomes the king of Israel, thought to be messiah - the Antichrist.



the five stage b.jpg
 

Douggg

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7) Do you agree that Jesus was baptized on the very first day of the 70Th week of the prophecy, as well as He was anointed by His Father at the Jordan river to BEGIN His ministry?
The messiah in Daniel 9:26 is prophesied to be "cut off"

The anointing of Jesus for that event was not being baptized in the Jordan river, but Jesus anointed with ointment on his head in Mark 14:3-9, for his soon to be death on the cross that put an end to sin's power to eternally separate us from God, and his body being place in a tomb.

Mark 14: 8 She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying.
 
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Douggg

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1 Cor. 10
[11] Now all these things happened unto them [Israel] for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world ARE come.

Heb. 9
[26] For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
I think the apostles were thinking that Jesus would return in their day and considered their time to be the end of the world.
That's the impression I get.
 

Earburner

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Antiochus IV did fulfill placing the abomination of desolation in the temple of Daniel 11:31. That statue image is a typology of what the time of the end abomination of desolation will be.
Little do you realize, as well as most others here, "the abomination that MAKETH desolate" has already happened long ago through the actions of Antiochus lV Epiphanes, being the type, and then again by someone else, but in anti-type.
 

ewq1938

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Little do you realize, as well as most others here, "the abomination that MAKETH desolate" has already happened long ago through the actions of Antiochus lV Epiphanes, being the type, and then again by someone else, but in anti-type.


The true and final fulfillment of the AoD has not happened. His appearance is directly related to the start of the GT and that has happened yet.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Church-ianity's preterism should be rejected as it is false doctrine that removes the AC from the future. All false doctrines of Church-ianity deny or remove or erase the AC.
 

Earburner

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I think the apostles were thinking that Jesus would return in their day and considered their time to be the end of the world.
That's the impression I get.
That could be so in what you say, but by the words of Jesus, I strongly doubt it.
Acts 10
Mat. 2143] Therefore say I unto you [Israel], The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mat. 24
[14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The Apostles knew by the Holy Spirit's teaching through them, that the era/age of Israel had come to an end, and that God, through Christ, was now extending His Grace to all people, in all nations.
The Apostles knew that they themselves could never preach the gospel to all the world in their lifetime, that the end should come in their day.
Acts 10
[44] While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
[45] And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
>That "nation" is the born again saints, and not any one secular or religious nation.
 
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Earburner

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The true and final fulfillment of the AoD has not happened. His appearance is directly related to the start of the GT and that has happened yet.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Church-ianity's preterism should be rejected as it is false doctrine that removes the AC from the future. All false doctrines of Church-ianity deny or remove or erase the AC.
From the days of A4E, and the fulfillment of the AoD then, the only future that it has ever been in, is the days of Christ.
Mark 13
[14] But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
 
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ewq1938

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From the days of A4E, and the fulfillment of the AoD then, the only future that it has ever been in, is the days of Christ.

The idea of the AoD being fulfilled is pure deception. It helps the AC to deceive when he arrives because all false doctrines deny the AC in some way.
 

Earburner

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The idea of the AoD being fulfilled is pure deception. It helps the AC to deceive when he arrives because all false doctrines deny the AC in some way.
How would you know, if you don't know any number of abominations that are against God? Surely you don't think that Jesus was talking about future, unsaved Jews, going forward in time from his day?
 
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ewq1938

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Quite comical and creative!!
Except for one thing, the "members of church-ianity" don't know that they are swallowing "false doctrine", but "born again" Christians, being anointed by "the power of God", should know!!
1 Cor. 2:5


The point was the people pointing fingers and saying all this church-ianity stuff are almost always teaching false doctrine church-ianity garbage themselves. It's a hypocrisy.
 

ewq1938

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How would you know, if you don't know any number of abominations that are against God? Surely you don't think that Jesus was talking about future, unsaved Jews, going forward from his day?

The AoD is fulfilled by the future and final AC in the tribulation which hasn't happened yet. Preterism is deception that aids the AC and helps cause the apostasy.
 

ScottA

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Thanks for your thougIhts Scott. I would ask that you might consider an alternative interpretation., but please keep in mind this interpretation does not stand alone. However, this response will most likely give that appearance because, as you know, the Scriptures all speak to one major theme and each verse has its own important relationship to many others.

In any event, verse 8:14 has one and only one message to bring us - that the Sanctuary will be cleansed in 2300 evenings and mornings. Therefore, it might be necessary to interpret this phophecy (not going backwards), to discuss some few important terms within this short phrase:

1) What Sanctuary will be cleansed - the earthly or the heavenly?
2) Who is only able to cleanse the Sanctuary? On earth or in heaven?
3) Does the term "evenings and mornings" ensure that one must look at this prophecy as it relates to the "daily" sacrifice - at 9AM and 3PM?
4) Is this a messianic prophecy?
5) Does the answer in #3 above demand this prophecy is in literal days?
6) In the next chapter, Gabriel will give Daniel the 70 weeks of years prophecy. Within that, the mission of the Messiah is found in 924. There is no chapter separations in the Hebrew books so can you see how this verse in Chapter 8 (and many others) speak to the coming Messiah and His plan of salvation?
7) Do you agree that Jesus was baptized on the very first day of the 70Th week of the prophecy, as well as He was anointed by His Father at the Jordan river to BEGIN His ministry?
8) Do you believe the Levitical ceremonies, the Temple, the Sanctuary, the High Priest, the animal sacrifices were a "foreshadowing" of the coming Messiah who would fulfill each and every one of them at His coming? If so, can you see how this prophecy might refer to His coming and the mission He was given by His Father to complete during His brief ministry?

The answers to these questions were / are necessary for one to identify the meaning of this prophecy - it is all about HIM!

Look forward to your response.

I wasn't giving my thoughts, but rather stating what is true.

Your question certainly do offer help in reasoning ones way through understanding the passage. I am sure it is helpful.
 

CTK

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I wasn't giving my thoughts, but rather stating what is true.

Your question certainly do offer help in reasoning ones way through understanding the passage. I am sure it is helpful.
Very well. How about this.... is it possible the 2300 days is a messianic prophecy that is fulfilled by Jesus during His 3.5 year ministry? Can He be the only one who is able to cleanse the Sanctuary in heaven? Thanks.
 

ScottA

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Could you point out the number of each of the three segments, or is it just random since creation? Otherwise, I am not following your line of thinking.

Daniel's prophecy refers to 70 weeks, or seven times x 10 (10 meaning all), referring to and elaborating the 7-day creation account which is a foreshadowing of everything to follow and all of time from beginning to end.

Daniel then equates the 7 to 3 times or as being made up of 3 segments, in the riddle of "a time, times, and half a time."

Jesus then gave the same 3-segment reference referring again to all of time and the overall plan of salvation from the beginning to the end of time, saying, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected" (Luke 13:32).

The seven days foreshadowing all of time, are thus fulfilled in three segments, according to the days of Christ, and also those of His two witnesses (first to the Jew and also to the gentile, first by flesh and then by the Spirit), aka the "three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one" (1 John 5:8).
 
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ScottA

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Very well. How about this.... is it possible the 2300 days is a messianic prophecy that is fulfilled by Jesus during His 3.5 year ministry? Can He be the only one who is able to cleanse the Sanctuary in heaven? Thanks.

It is all of Jesus' doing from the beginning to the end of time. The 3.5 years of His ministry is simply the personification of Christ made manifest according to the years of a man, fulfilling prophecy. He who was and is of God was made manifest in the one man Jesus Christ in His time, showing Him to be both God and man.

As for the cleansing in heaven. Yes, it is as you say--even before the foundation of the world.
 
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Earburner

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The point was the people pointing fingers and saying all this church-ianity stuff are almost always teaching false doctrine church-ianity garbage themselves. It's a hypocrisy.
In the Greek, the word "spirit" is defined as "mind", aka breath, thoughts/words through the human rational soul/mind- Strongs G4151.

In 1 Cor. 2:5, it may be that many professing Christians have not thought about the difference between "the wisdom of men" and "the power [anointing] of God".

In all of 1 Cor. ch. 2, Paul goes to great length in revealing to us that which is the "mind" of our "natural man", and that which is of "the mind of Christ". That is, if He is within them.

Rom. 8:8-9
[8] So then they that are in the flesh [only] cannot please God.
[9] But ye are not in the flesh [only], but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So then, it is extremely important for a "born again" Christian to KNOW from which mind a person of a denominational church is teaching the scriptures to them.

Did they who teach, learn of their faith through the Spirit of Christ, or did they learn through a denominational Bible College or Seminary?
1 John 2
[27] But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

So yes, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees",.....in our day!
There are many professing to be a Christian, who have not the Spirit of Christ, but rather only the wisdom of men.

One can be baptized by water, but that is not necessarily proof, that they are Baptized (anointed) by the Holy Spirit of God.
Rev. 3:20; 1 Cor. 2:5.
 
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Timtofly

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I have requested that you provide your suppot / reasoning for your interpretations regarding the little horn, the 4th kingdom, etc., but you have only given me your opinion that the little horn is AE. So, I believe it might be approrpriate to take these important verses one at a time and ask you to provide not only your opinion but the reasoning / thoughts on your interpretations.

Here are verses 7:7-8..... Please provide your answers to these first 4 questions with the basis for your interpretations:

Chapter 7

7“After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.

8I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking [c]pompous words.

Here are verses 7:7-8. This is the introduction to the 4th beast of the 4 kingdoms of the metal man image from Chapter 2.

  • Who is the 4th beast,
  • Who are the 10 horns that come out of this beast?
  • Who is the little horn that comes out of this beast BUT only after the 10 horns come out of the beast?
  • Why do these 10 and this 1 horn come out of this 4th beast kingdom?
  • Does any of your responses require the support from Chapter 2 (continuation of the storyline proving continuity and support for these Chapter 7 interpretations? Specifically, how does verses 2:40 - 44 support Chapter 7?
And this is only two verses we must address before we continue with Chapter 7.... it is going to get much harder.... should you continue!
The ten horns and little horn of Daniel 7 are talking about first century AD Rome.

The little horn of Daniel 8 is talking about Antiochus Epiphanes of the third kingdom Greece in the 2nd century BC.

Neither chapter are talking about the future 8th kingdom. Daniel only talks about 5 kingdoms in Daniel 2. Later chapters only conver the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th kingdom. The feet of clay and ten toes are never mentioned in later chapters of Daniel.


The feet of clay covers the time of papal Rome from around the 5th century to the 15th century. But Daniel never dreams about the 5th kingdom. So you cannot declare Daniel 7 nor Daniel 8 as being about the 5th kingdom. The earth has been in the mortally wounded 6th kingdom for over 500 years, since the Reformation. Not even Daniel 2 covered the 6th kingdom we are currently in.

Only Revelation covers the 6th, 7th, and 8th world kingdoms.

Why are we so concerned about the 4th beast and Daniel 7, when our focus should be on Jesus Christ and the NT Covenant which is about the spread of the Gospel, instead of the persecution and martyrdom of first century Christians. Revelation was not even given to the church until after the events of Daniel 7 were already fulfilled.

English versions of God's Word came out of the Reformation and the end of the 5th kingdom of clay and iron feet and toes. While the Gospel had gone out during the times of the 4th and 5th kingdom, it was not until the 6th kingdom that God's Word and the church itself was being established by missions going out to the whole world, instead of centered in one area of the world.

Daniel 2 was fulfilled when the NT church was established across the entire earth. That made it possible for there to be a multitude without number in heaven from every nation: Revelation 7:9

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb."

This would not be just people's opinion. This is history that all on earth seem to accept, especially the lost people as they are the one's who compiled history and gave it to us in many languages.

The Bible is not just a history book, but a book of things to come. If there is fulfillment outside of Jesus and the Gospel in regards to human government, it is extra biblical accounts that need to be taken into consideration, even such books as some have deemed part of the Canon, while others reject them as Canon. The only historical book in the NT is Acts. Acts was not written as the fulfillment of any prophecy, even if some posters here may want to interpret the book of Acts that way. Even historical books could be construed as just human opinion and the presentation of facts taken by faith that they actually occurred. Luke 16:8-9

"And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light. And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations."

Even Jesus made an interesting observation when it comes to the saved and the lost. When it comes to the things of this world, the lost are wiser in some aspects than the saved. Not that some saved people have not been involved in advancing human knowledge. The point is that when it comes to the Gospel, to the world that is foolishness. But when it comes to the world, some saved people tend to be more foolish and reject established human historical understanding.

In some cases of human understanding even the saved have been deceived and follow after human foolishness. It is the Holy Spirit and the Word of God that shines light on what is true and what is deception.
 

Timtofly

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The 10 Horns do come out of the 4th Beast, but the little horn does not. The little horn comes out of "the latter time of their kingdom" of the 3rd beast, which had divided into 4 kingdoms, after Alex the Great died, which was the Grecian Empire.
Of course there was a little horn in Rome in first century AD. Horns represent individual leaders. Rome had 12 rulers in the first century AD. One year there were 4. So 3 replaced by a 4th in a short period of time. Obviously 3 horns were not supposed to have long reigns. Not that each ruler had a long reign to begin with. As you state even Rome had 4 different periods of existence. A kingdom, a Republic, an empire, and then a period of division, where two halves had their own individual leaders.

So why did Daniel dream chapter 7 of the 4th kingdom before chapter 8 of the 3rd kingdom out of chronological order of historical events? Both chapters were fulfilled prior to the completion of the NT Canon, but no one seemed concerned under the NT Canon to include the fulfillment of Daniel at all. The reason being, the Gospel was more important than human history, that Daniel struggled over, and like sealed government documents would not make sense until a later time when they were unsealed for public viewing. At that time it would not matter. Technically, Daniel still does not matter. It was for the time between the end of the OT Canon and the completion of the NT Canon. It only pertained to that period of history, but those living through it were prevented from understanding how it would be fulfilled. If they did, perhaps some would try to change the future if they could? Who knows?

Just because God hid the fulfillment of Daniel from those who saw it fulfilled, does not mean Daniel has not been fulfilled. There will not be a future little horn yet remaining to appear. All that has already been fulfilled.

"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

If the book was sealed up, even though they could read all of Daniel, what Daniel wrote would be a mystery, even up until the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. Not that some could not apply secular history to the book and show some fulfillment millennia later, but all of Daniel is still a mystery and will be even to the point of the 7th Trumpet sounding in Revelation 10.

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

John did not write it would be resolved and understood by anyone. John wrote it would be finished. What Daniel wrote was not hidden. The understanding of what Daniel wrote would not start until the time of the end, and based on the simple fact:

"many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased"

God would allow some to understand because of the increase in knowledge. Not more biblical revelation. Just more understanding of human history and the acceptance of what happened in the past. No one can change the past and make it say something different. One still has to rely on secular historical accounts to make sense of what Daniel wrote, though.