The curious case of John 5:4

[GodsGrace]

Was the Jewish scribe whom Jesus agreed with in Mark 12:28-34 a Nicene creed affirming person?

What did Jesus mean then when He answered in Mark 12:35-37 ?
And why did Jesus not protest at John 20:28?

 

[GodsGrace]

I trust what is written in Matthe through revelations. To me that is church history

I do not trust anything written after this. No one should

You were there? You know this to be a fact. Or you believe it because someone who claims to be a church father told you this?

and even if he was. What does he need to add that God did not already put in his bible that I need to hear? Can i read what he said? Of course I can, i read books all the time, but when it comes to who do I trust? I trust none of them completely. i follow non of them blindly. Because if they get one thing wrong, that one thing will lead me astray.

I just want @Matthias to see the above.
We were just discussing how some will not accept history.
It's your prerogative....I just wanted to know as much as I could.

They are not to be followed blindly, especially since on some topics they didn't agree 100%...but still,
many topics are clarified.

Were you there when Lincoln got shot?
How could you be sure he was shot?
Was arianism ever a heresy?
How could we be sure it wasn't all just a conspiracy?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I just want @Matthias to see the above.
We were just discussing how some will not accept history.
It's your prerogative....I just wanted to know as much as I could.

They are not to be followed blindly, especially since on some topics they didn't agree 100%...but still,
many topics are clarified.

Were you there when Lincoln got shot?
How could you be sure he was shot?
Was arianism ever a heresy?
How could we be sure it wasn't all just a conspiracy?

When it comes to world histroy. I have to trust the people who wrote history. But your probably right, I can nto know for sure

when it comes to Christianity, I trust what is in the inspired word. I do not trust anything outside of the word. i can use it, study it, see if it lines up with scripture. But I can not and should not just follow it.

I am not sure why any person who claims to be a follower of Christ would go outside of the Bible to see what God wants or what God demands, or how he set things up. I will be honest.

again, Unless I did not trust the Bible completely.

But then I would have to ask. If i di not trust the Bible. Why would I trust this man who I have never met.?

 

[GodsGrace]

this difference is what you trust.


A christian is someone who follows jesus, that is actually what the word means

Now is every Christian a child of God. Thats where the difference comes in.

What makes me a christian? Or a true christian?

to be a christian is just to claim you follow christ.. go to a church. Or read the Bible

To be a true christian or child of God however, Am I born again, am I adopted as the child of God. Has my sins been forgiven, Have I been redeemed Justified, Sanctified. Will i be ressurected and glorified, do I have the seal of the spirit as a pledge.

if all of these are not true.. then you may be a chritian, But are you a true Christian?

You have just removed any meaning from the word CHRISTIAN.

the fact they had to change it as he said, should lead you to pause.

No. It was changed for a reason. There are even more creeds.
It's like the covenants....no one covenant abolished the ones prior...
they added something or they improved it, or otherwise changed it somehow.

I would have to study the creed. But I have no desire to, nor do i need to. It will not make me a christian or may or may not keep me from being a true christian.

I didn't say it would MAKE YOU A CHRISTIAN.
I said it DEFINES a Christian.
Anyway, what's to study?
It's right there for you to read...not much to study since you already know theology...
IF you were just starting out...THEN you'd have to study it.

I want to focus on the word not creeds. people focus on creeds or as the jews who focused on extra biblical writings. Because the Bible tends to not support them fully.. so they need extra support

Wow. No EG. This is not what a creed is.

 

[Matthias]

What did Jesus mean then when He answered in Mark 12:35-37 ?

The scribe still needed to take the next step -> recognize Jesus as the Messiah promised, raised up and sent by their God, the Father.

And why did Jesus not protest at John 20:28?

There is nothing to protest. When we see and hear Jesus we should see and hear his God, the Father, in him. Thomas finally saw what he hadn’t seen in John 14. Jesus commended him.

 

[GodsGrace]

If your doing work to save yourself is this not a works based righteousness?

and this does differ than works which are a result of your salvation..

can you at least agree there are differences?

I've been telling you for years....here it is again:

WORKS WITHOUT FAITH WILL NOT SAVE.
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS A DEAD FAITH.

It's simple.

 

[GodsGrace]

When it comes to world histroy. I have to trust the people who wrote history. But your probably right, I can nto know for sure

when it comes to Christianity, I trust what is in the inspired word. I do not trust anything outside of the word. i can use it, study it, see if it lines up with scripture. But I can not and should not just follow it.

I am not sure why any person who claims to be a follower of Christ would go outside of the Bible to see what God wants or what God demands, or how he set things up. I will be honest.

again, Unless I did not trust the Bible completely.

But then I would have to ask. If i di not trust the Bible. Why would I trust this man who I have never met.?

This is why we MIGHT want to go outside the bible....
Is OSAS correct?
A case could be made either way using random verses.
Did those the Apostles taught believe in OSAS?

Does the answer not matter at all to you?
(guess not).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You have just removed the any meaning from the word CHRISTIAN.

please explain

No. It was changed for a reason. There are even more creeds.
It's like the covenants....no one covenant abolished the ones prior...
they added something or they improved it, or otherwise changed it somehow.

so what about the Bible. Do you trust the Bible? I know you say their are contradictions, is this why you go to creeds?)

I didn't say it would MAKE YOU A CHRISTIAN
I said it DEFINES a Christian.

Does it though? Is not a true christian more than just that?

the three groups that you said support it. Are they all true christians?

Anyway, what's to study?
It's right there for you to read...not much to study since you already know theology...
IF you were just starting out...THEN you'd have to study it.

You can not just read words. You have to go back and study.

I can make up words. Those words may not mean the same 2000 years from now. So a person reading my words then may get a different meaning than what I intended

Wow. No EG. This is not what a creed is.

To me it is. It is somethign outside of the Bible which takes our focus off the word and puts it on those who wrote the creed.

I want to focus on the word. Not a creed. if I have to say i agree or disagree with a creed. And that is what determines I am a christian or not. I agree with @Matthias that I would not claim to be a christian based on some creed..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I've been telling you for years....here it is again:

WORKS WITHOUT FAITH WILL NOT SAVE.
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS A DEAD FAITH.

It's simple.

1. There is no such things as faith without works. A dead faith is lifeless. It is not faith at all. A lifeless faith can not saved, hence it will never work.

So your saying

WORKS WITH FAITH SAVES?

Well does this then not make it a works based salvation?

are you not working to earn your salvation.

I know we keep going over this,, But this is probably the most important topic we will ever go over.. because this is a topic that if we get this wrong. We are on the wrong side of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

The scribe still needed to take the next step -> recognize Jesus as the Messiah promised, raised up and sent by their God, the Father.



There is nothing to protest. When we see and hear Jesus we should see and hear his God, the Father, in him. If Jesus said anything in response, it isn’t preserved for us. I’m not big on speculation but of Jesus said something in response to it he would surely have spoken approvingly. Thomas finally saw what he hadn’t seen in John 14. “Well done,” would have been my response to Thomas if I was standing in Jesus’ place.

I THINK we agree.
Jesus would have certainly disagreed at such an "egregious" statement were it NOT true.
The Messiah was a SENT ONE by God.....(annointed).
Jesus was certainly this.
But more.

 

[GodsGrace]

1. There is no such things as faith without works. A dead faith is lifeless. It is not faith at all. A lifeless faith can not saved, hence it will never work.

So your saying

WORKS WITH FAITH SAVES?

Well does this then not make it a works based salvation?

are you not working to earn your salvation.

I know we keep going over this,, But this is probably the most important topic we will ever go over.. because this is a topic that if we get this wrong. We are on the wrong side of God.

Doctrine will not save us.
But thinking we can call ourselves Christian and not have any transformation in our lives,,,could put us into a dangerous state.
This is a really good convo, but you have a big advantage over me...
it's only 3:23 PM over there !!
Tomorrow....

 

[Matthias]

I THINK we agree.
Jesus would have certainly disagreed at such an "egregious" statement were it NOT true.

Yes. Another fine example, in my view, of the reliability of scripture.

The Messiah was a SENT ONE by God.....(annointed).
Jesus was certainly this.
But more.

The Messiah had / has multiple functions to perform.

 

[GodsGrace]

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Doctrine will not save us.

Salvation by grace through faith is not doctrine, it is the gospel of Christ. And it will save us

But thinking we can call ourselves Christian and not have any transformation in our lives,,,could put us into a dangerous state.

Well no one I know or no church I have ever visited says we can be a christ and not expect any change in our loves.

A person who truly repented understands their sinful nature. They would expect god to change them, part of their cry for help is not only For God to save them eternally. But to save them from the sin that has enslaved them

this thinking that grace people teach you can say a sinners prayer and are saved no matter what, and you can go live however you want is not found in this world. i do not teach it. And no church I know teaches is ( I know it is taught, because the second chapter of james speaks against it, and Jude outright conemned this teaching) so i am not saying it is not there. I am saying however, not everyone who believe in eternal security believes this.

This is a really good convo, but you have a big advantage over me...
it's only 3:23 PM over there !!
Tomorrow....

I look forward to it.. I hope to have time tomorrow. Get some rest. Think about it, Pry about it if you have to. i know I will.

 

[JLB]

I've been telling you for years....here it is again:

WORKS WITHOUT FAITH WILL NOT SAVE.
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS A DEAD FAITH.

It's simple.

Amen.

 

[Matthias]

And I agree with all the creeds except for one, but it was poorly translated.
Can't remember which one right now, but it states that on the 3rd day Jesus descended into hell.
Jesus was never in hell,,,the correct word should be Inferi, which means Hades...where the dead were waiting to be released from Abraham's bossom.

You’re probably thinking of the Athanasian Creed.

Athanasian Creed

See line 38 in the link.

… Creeds were necessary to set this standard I'm speaking of. They were absolutely necessary or we would never have our Christian faith today …

I was raised Southern Baptist. We didn’t recite the creeds. Ironically, it was a Bible study lead by my Baptist pastor that introduced me to them and caused me to look deeply into Church history.

If the creeds are in the NT wouldn’t you have your faith today without them?

 

[Matthias]

What is in the creed that is NOT in the bible?

That which by board policy cannot be discussed.

When the Church began taking the gospel to the gentiles it ran into Hellenism. When apologists began using Greek philosophical terminology (terminology which isn’t used in the Bible), Jewish monotheism was destroyed. (Gregory of Nyssa is adamant on this point.) The church that had been predominantly comprised of Jews gradually shifted to being predominantly comprised of gentiles. Greek thought replaced Hebraic thought.

 

[Aunty Jane]

And I agree with all the creeds except for one, but it was poorly translated.
Can't remember which one right now, but it states that on the 3rd day Jesus descended into hell.
Jesus was never in hell,,,the correct word should be Inferi, which means Hades...where the dead were waiting to be released from Abraham's bossom.

Actually Jesus did descend into “hell” because “hades“ is the Greek translation of “Sheol” which to Jews was simply the grave. Jesus was in his grave for three days just as he said he would be.

Unless I am mistaken, “inferni“ was Roman Latin, not Koine Greek.
Hades is not hot and it is not hell.
“Abraham’s bosom” is another way of saying someone has God’s favor.
The rich man and Lazarus is a parable, not a literal account.
There is no belief in an immortal soul taught anywhere in the Hebrew Scriptures…the Jews believed in resurrection, which was expected at some time in the future when Messiah was set up the rulership of his kingdom on earth. Jesus spoke about it. (John 5:28-29) He calls the dead from their graves, so they must all still be in them.

There is a lot of introduced Catholic ideas in your response there. None of them are biblical. No church adopted paganism quite as roundly as the RCC……but it was foretold. An apostasy was expected and it happened, but is denied by those who embraced the lies as truth. Like their many traditions, they became so deeply entrenched that most do not question them….they just blindly accept them.

 

[Ritajanice]

Doctrine will not save us.

Amen

But thinking we can call ourselves Christian and not have any transformation in our lives,,,could put us into a dangerous state.

Because our heart is in Christ, the mind of Christ will follow, which takes time to grow and mature.

When you see quite a few of us throwing our toys out of the pram, using laughing emojis, insulting behaviour ,because the other doesn’t agree with the others understanding ,of what it means to be Born Again.

That’s a very immature mind in Christ.,it’s like being in kindergarten.insult paid with another insult is not of Christ.

That’s why imo, I have quite a few in ignore, I’ve been extremely immature myself in Christ.. I can admit to that,.God also showed me that,..I don’t want them hindering my growth in Christ..so, they will remain on ignore until I start to see maturity in them....goading and name calling , I can see straight through it, I won’t play these silly little mind games by some, because I disagree with their understanding of scripture..
It’s just negative attention seeking drama, let’s all grow up in Christ and discuss as he would discuss...Father God I am relying on your Spirit ,to get that message across to ‘ all” of us.in Jesus Name!..Amen!

The Lord's Approved Workman
…23But reject foolish and ignorant speculation, for you know that it breeds quarreling. 24And a servant of the Lordmust not be quarrelsome, but must be kindto everyone, able to teach, and forbearing.25He must gently reprove those who oppose him, in the hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.…

. Godly wisdom is peaceable or peace-loving, putting a high value on easing conflict.

 

[Matthias]

Was the Jewish scribe whom Jesus agreed with in Mark 12:28-34 a Nicene creed affirming person?

No. The scribe was a Jewish monotheist who lived 300 years before there was a Nicene creed.

The creed of the Jewish scribe (and of Jesus) is the creed of Judaism.

”1. The one God. (a)theos is the most frequent designation of God in the NT. Belief in the one, only, and unique God (Matt. 23:9; Rom. 3:30; 1 Cor. 8:4,6; Gal. 3:20; 1 Tim. 2:5; Jas. 2:19) is an established part of Christian tradition. Jesus himself made the fundamental confession of Jud. his own and expressly quoted the Shema(Deut. 6:4-5; see Mk. 12:29-30; cf. Matt. 22:37; Lk. 10:27). This guaranteed continuity between the old and the new covenants. The God whom Christians worship is the God of the fathers (Acts 3:13; 5:30; 22:14), the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Acts 3:13; 7:32; cf. Matt. 22:32; Mk. 12:26; Lk. 20:37), the God of Israel (Matt. 15:31; Lk. 1:68; Acts 13:17), and the God of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 1 Pet. 1:3).”

(New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Abridged Edition, p. 244)

I carried this around with me for decades @GodsGrace. This is Jewish monotheism -> “ the fundamental confession of Judaism”.

I’m bound in conscience to this constraint of history. Another way of saying it is that I have not progressed in my belief from the fundamental unitarian creed of Judaism to the fundamental trinitarian creed of Nicene Christianity. I’m “stuck” or “stalled”, if you will, in the first century Jewish sect of Jesus and his earliest followers. You’ve been able to advance beyond that to the fourth and fifth century creeds of Christianity.

This circumstance hasn’t caused either one of us to question the reliability of the Bible.

Now a rhetorical question: If one must believe the creeds of the fourth and fifth century in order to be considered a Christian - if the affirmation of those creeds is what we’re going to say is what defines who is and who is not a Christian - where does that leave the followers of Jesus who lived prior to the fourth century?