GJohn 1.18

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KUWN

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GJohn 1.18

θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· μονογενὴς θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο.

No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.

There is a textual variant here that has made this a very controversial verse. The question is whether the word God or son is the original reading. What textual critics do is use a set of guidelines that they have developed over the centuries in determining the original wording. They look at internal and external criteria. In this instance, the external criteria is evenly split between two texts, the Alexandrian (the early text) or the Byzantine (the later text).

Internally, and I am only going into one small piece of the debate, what you look for is would a scribe change only son or only God. God is the more difficult reading, which in textual criticism is important because it would be unusual for a scribe to change a common reading to a more difficult one. In other words, no scribe would change only begotten son to only begotten God. The later manuscripts have God and the more recent manuscripts have son.

So this is just some of the issues textual critics face when facing the undaunted task of determining which is the original reading. There are several other rules they go by, but this is one that is rather interesting because it is not necessarily intuitive until you start doing textual criticism.

Here's a paraphrase
“No one has seen God at any time. The unique One—fully God—the “I am” in the bosom of the Father, that One has explained him fully.”
 

face2face

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GJohn 1.18

No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.
:Laughingoutloud: hmmx1: coffee:

“Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, so that your Son may glorify you Jn 17:1.

God does not have fellowship with Himself! Though one can only imagine how HE felt to behold Christ in person for the first time! It's not a wonder the angels cast their crowns before him!

The first man to ascend Heaven and go where no other man had gone before or may go!

F2F
 

Aunty Jane

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So this is just some of the issues textual critics face when facing the undaunted task of determining which is the original reading. There are several other rules they go by, but this is one that is rather interesting because it is not necessarily intuitive until you start doing textual criticism.

Here's a paraphrase
“No one has seen God at any time. The unique One—fully God—the “I am” in the bosom of the Father, that One has explained him fully.”
Good grief! Where does it say that ?!
If you take off the trinitarians glasses you will see the very plain statement of the first words recorded there are….”NO ONE HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME”…..since thousands of people saw Jesus, it is apparent that he cannot be God. Trinitarians will tell you that it can’t possibly mean that…..yet John 1:1 calls Jesus (ho logos) “theos”, meaning a god or goddess and a divine one. So “only begotten god” (small “g”) is in keeping with what it says in John 1:18. This “god” is not Yahweh….but his divine son.

The oldest manuscripts say “the only begotten god who is in the bosom of the Father has explained him.“
There are other later manuscripts that say “only begotten son“ but “monogenes theos“ means “only begotten god”….this created a difficulty for trinitarians because they could not see how “god” could be ”begotten”, since this requires a ‘begetter’…..a father to create a son.
There is no “son” in that verse.
 
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Lambano

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Good night nurse, what a huge footnote about this verse in NETBible:

The NET of it is (bad pun intentional), in the older reading, the word "God" does not have the article, so it is not referring to the one-and-only God. Instead, it is used as a compound substantiative adjective ("only begotten, made out of God-stuff") describing "the one who is in the bosom of the father", which has to refer back to "Jesus Christ" in the previous verse.

If you want to think of a person made out of God-substance as "a god" (as certain sects do), you can, but (as I pointed out on the locked John 1.1 thread) that begs the question of, just how many gods are out there? And when you're talking about form and substance, you bring into play the natural philosophy of the time.

But, we're just talking about what the manuscripts say, not their theological implications. And let's keep it that way.
 
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Arthur81

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Denying the Trinity is heresy. Any church history book will inform you of that. And yes, Christians can teach heresy. Your understanding of monogenes betrays your lack of study into this Greek word. Monogenes has many meanings, and the 1611 KJV did not have enough manuscripts to understand the meaning of it. It means also the one and only, the unique one. This is why Isaac is called Abraham's unique son, because Abraham had Ishmael long before he had Isaac. The reason nobody has seen God is because God is spirit. Jesus came to this world in the form of man, not God. But it was Jesus who said, I (masculine) and my Father (masculine) are one (neuter). They were one in essence, not person. But you have heard off of this before.
I have to admit I do not know Greek and cannot always follow the discussions. But the NET Bible translator note on John 1:18 reads, for those who like to dig deep -

tc The textual problem μονογενὴς θεός (monogenēs theos, “the only God”) versus ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός (ho monogenēs huios, “the only son”) is a notoriously difficult one. Only one letter would have differentiated the readings in the MSS, since both words would have been contracted as nomina sacra: thus Θ̅C̅ or Υ̅C̅. Externally, there are several variants, but they can be grouped essentially by whether they read θεός or υἱός. The majority of MSS, especially the later ones (A C3 Θ Ψ ƒ1,13 M lat), read ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός. P75 א1 33 have ὁ μονογενὴς θεός, while the anarthrous μονογενὴς θεός is found in P66 א* B C* L. The articular θεός is almost certainly a scribal emendation to the anarthrous θεός, for θεός without the article is a much harder reading. The external evidence thus strongly supports μονογενὴς θεός. Internally, although υἱός fits the immediate context more readily, θεός is much more difficult. As well, θεός also explains the origin of the other reading (υἱός) because it is difficult to see why a scribe who found υἱός in the text he was copying would alter it to θεός. Scribes would naturally change the wording to υἱός however, since μονογενὴς υἱός is a uniquely Johannine christological title (cf. John 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). But θεός as the older and more difficult reading is preferred. As for translation, it makes the most sense to see the word θεός as in apposition to μονογενής, and the participle ὁ ὤν (ho ōn) as in apposition to θεός, giving in effect three descriptions of Jesus rather than only two. (B. D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, 81, suggests that it is nearly impossible and completely unattested in the NT for an adjective followed immediately by a noun that agrees in gender, number, and case, to be a substantival adjective: “when is an adjective ever used substantivally when it immediately precedes a noun of the same inflection?” This, however, is an overstatement. First, as Ehrman admits, μονογενής in John 1:14 is substantival. And since it is an established usage for the adjective in this context, one might well expect that the author would continue to use the adjective substantivally four verses later. Indeed, μονογενής is already moving toward a crystallized substantival adjective in the NT [cf. Luke 9:38; Heb 11:17]; in patristic Greek, the process continued [cf. PGL 881 s.v. 7]. Second, there are several instances in the NT in which a substantival adjective is followed by a noun with which it has complete concord: cf., e.g., Rom 1:30; Gal 3:9; 1 Tim 1:9; 2 Pet 2:5.) The modern translations which best express this are the NEB (margin) and TEV. Several things should be noted: μονογενής alone, without υἱός, can mean “only son,” “unique son,” “unique one,” etc. (see 1:14). Furthermore, θεός is anarthrous. As such it carries qualitative force much like it does in 1:1c, where θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (theos ēn ho logos) means “the Word was fully God” or “the Word was fully of the essence of deity.” Finally, ὁ ὤν occurs in Rev 1:4, 8; 4:8; 11:17; and 16:5, but even more significantly in the LXX of Exod 3:14. Putting all of this together leads to the translation given in the text.

I look at translation philosophy or perspective. The Updated Edition of the NRSV, copyright 2021, is an academic translation, whose translators could care less about the theology of the verse, translate closely according to the Greek without being seen through theological lenses. Here is its translation of the verse in question -

"No one has ever seen God. It is the only Son, himself God, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known." Joh 1:18 NRSVue

If the NRSVue translators voiced a view of this, it would probably be humanistic, "John was mistaken, deceived, etc."
 
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Arthur81

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You have the right Bible. And I like the NSRVue translation. "himself God"
I use many translations. I find the NET Bible very helpful on this sort of study. But, if I were to be working in depth on this verse, I'd be using reference works to understand a lot of the reasoning, manuscript evidence, etc. On translations, I do mainly use the KJV, ASV, RSV, REB, NRSV, NRSVue, and generally avoid the modern evangelical translations, the NET Bible being one important exception.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Not sure if it helps. But if we look back to vs 1. The author wrote, the word was with God (Literally Ho Theos. Or the God) and the word was God (again, Ho Theos, or literally the God)

in vs 18. It just says Theos.. The fact that he changes his wording, and does not say no one has seen “the God”. May make a difference?
 

Aunty Jane

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Not sure if it helps. But if we look back to vs 1. The author wrote, the word was with God (Literally Ho Theos. Or the God) and the word was God (again, Ho Theos, or literally the God)
Correction there….the second reference to god in John 1:1 is just “theos”…not “ho theos” so not literally “the God”.
The verse could be translated more correctly as
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh, and the Word was divine.“
in vs 18. It just says Theos.. The fact that he changes his wording, and does not say no one has seen “the God”. May make a difference?
Since we cannot make Scripture say what we want it to (unless we are biased trinitarians translators of course) the Scripture plainly states that “no one has ever seen God”, which explains Moses asking to see God and being told….”no man can see me and live.”

If we understand the mechanics of redemption in the Jewish understanding, we will see why God himself could never become a mere human and be killed by his own creation….it takes some serious tap dancing to even suggest such a thing….let alone prove it by Scripture….though it doesn’t stop the many suggestions in that attempt.

The fundamental question to ask is……”Can humans kill God?“
He is an immortal who cannot die. His firstborn son was not created immortal and neither were the angels, otherwise God could not “destroy” spirit beings in ”the lake of fire”. (John 3:16; Matt 25:41) It is not a literal place because “death and hades” are pitched in there as well. (Rev 20:13-14)

What did Jesus say about who he was? (John 10:36)
What did the apostles say collectively? (1 Cor 8:5-6)
 

KUWN

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No! There is NO definite article there, in the second occurrence of theos. So, not ‘ho theos.’ Only “theos.”

Please be accurate.
If there were a definite article with THEOS it would support the heresy of Modalism. It would be saying that the Word and the Father are the same persons.
 
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JohnDB

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Early Church did believe that Jesus was indeed God (new discovery of a mosaic floor of a church unearthed in Israel where they were going to put a new prison wing) which says just that.

So...aside from that.

What John is referring to is one of many "word pictures" that were the stock and trade of Jesus's teachings.

"God is so big that you can never back up far enough to view God in His entirety." Is the concept being related in this sentence fragment.
Words are precious and few....and each word was expensive to write. (Not like digital, electronic words) Today, we do not have people who can write in the same fashion. People want to challenge every sentence and contort even the most drawn out sentences. So writing has become long and arduous by comparison. It takes a paragraph to explain a simple concept.
 
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TheHC

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Early Church did believe that Jesus was indeed God
Not in the 1st-Century, the very beginning of Christianity.
This is easily understood when you read the prayer recorded at Acts 4:24-30….
To whom were they praying? Not Jesus. In fact, these Christians referred to Jesus as God’sHoly Servant.”

They knew & followed what Jesus taught: that “true worshippers will worship the Father.” (John 4:23) Which agrees with Paul’s statement at 1Corinthians 8:6, KJV…
“6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”
 

JohnDB

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Not in the 1st-Century, the very beginning of Christianity.
This is easily understood when you read the prayer recorded at Acts 4:24-30….
To whom were they praying? Not Jesus. In fact, these Christians referred to Jesus as God’sHoly Servant.”

They knew & followed what Jesus taught: that “true worshippers will worship the Father.” (John 4:23) Which agrees with Paul’s statement at 1Corinthians 8:6, KJV…
“6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”
The mosaic was from a 1st century Church in Israel. Apparently you are wrong. They very much did believe that Jesus is God.
 

TheHC

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The mosaic was from a 1st century Church in Israel. Apparently you are wrong. They very much did believe that Jesus is God.
The Scriptures provided, show otherwise.

I think it’s more important to use evidence from the Bible over what any mosaic purports.
 

JohnDB

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The Scriptures provided, show otherwise.

I think it’s more important to use evidence from the Bible over what any mosaic purports.
To what end? Trying to disprove the Trinity?

God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit
3 in one.

Not modalism
Not pantheism
Trinity....that's it.

If you want it to be something else you are in the wrong place.