My voting this time around based on the Bible's principles

[Debp]

I agree and share all your concerns. Romans 13 is God's command to do what we do legally by obeying the people in authority over us. His command applies to immigrants too.

I see you are from Michigan. Do you think Michigan will vote Trump?

PA usually votes Democrat in the cities. I asked a friend in Pittsburgh if she thought PA would vote Trump. She replied that she agreed with everything I said about Trump. I was pleasantly surprised.

 

[Scott Downey]

It is not so easy for me to apply my biblical world view with precision because of how both Federal and State governments have intruded into what should have been out of bounds for Civil Law. For example, at one time in recent years, Florida had the ban on abortion from 15 weeks forward. That was reasonable to me, ensoulment being at quickening. Then the extreme ban at 6 weeks was passed.

Yet the Amendment to the Florida Constitution that I was able to vote on Monday, was written so that I could not alter the 6-week ban without giving free reign for abortions up to time of birth. So, I had to vote against the Amendment and stay with what I consider meddling of some Christians in the personal affairs of other Christians through civil law, the 6-week ban.

1821, in Connecticut the first law against abortion came about in America, which was at quickening... It was in the 1860s that anti-abortion laws began to appear with frequency. It seems so much of liberal agitation, with democracy (mob rule) began to appear around the time of the War Between the States. What happened to freedom of religion when one theological view enforces its view upon others by civil law?

I do not believe the States were less sanctified at our founding than they are today. Keep in mind Ex. 21:22-24 LXX and commentary of Methodist Adam Clarke in the early 19th century, which gave the early view of abortion by most of the Reformation churches:

"And if two men strive and smite a woman with child, and her child be born imperfectly formed, he shall be forced to pay a penalty: as the woman's husband may lay upon him, he shall pay with a valuation. But if it be perfectly formed, he shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,..." (Exod 21:22-24 LXXE)

Adam Clarke - Verse 22. And hurt a woman with child] As a posterity among the Jews was among the peculiar promises of their covenant, and as every man had some reason to think that the Messiah should spring from his family, therefore any injury done to a woman with child, by which the fruit of her womb might be destroyed, was considered a very heavy offence; and as the crime was committed principally against the husband, the degree of punishment was left to his discretion. But if mischief followed, that is, if the child had been fully formed, and was killed by this means, or the woman lost her life in consequence, then the punishment was as in other cases of murder-the person was put to death; Ex 21:23.

That a human being, a person existed at conception was NOT the prevailing view of the body of Christ at the founding of America. Yet, Bruce, I ended up voting in the same way as you indicated that you voted, but it was not so easy a decision for me.

NKJV
22 “If men [d]fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that [e]she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

The unborn are protected according to the law of God, which shows His will, that the unborn is a person as the one that kills them must pay life for life, it's murder to God taking the life of someone not ready to be born.

 

[Behold]

I too, like others, would like to know your biblical basis for your statements. I tend to be a-millennial, but I am also pan-millennial--It'll all PAN out!

Consider that in the ""Time of the Gentiles..." and you can find that phrase in the NT, and do some study, in the NT..as your "church fathers" are not able to help you with it.

So, consider, that the "church age", is the "time of the Gentiles"... that started with the Death of Christ on The Cross.

Why is called the "time of the Gentiles".. ?????. and why is Paul the "apostle to the Gentiles", ?????who was called by Jesus into THAT Specific Ministry. ??????
Find out...

And why is Paul's Gospel, the one we preach in the "church age", that is the "time of the Gentiles", where you find that most of the body of Christ are not Jewish, they are "gentiles". ?????

So, are you connecting the Dots yet?..

Now, one of the reasons that The Trib is a Jewish situation, specifically, and you'll find out more if you do some research regarding the 144,000, and the 2 Prophets....
Its because God is finished with the "time of the Gentiles",...
God wont be dealing with the CHURCH that is defined in the "time of the Gentiles".... in the TRIB and GRT Trib, that was created in the "Time of the Gentiles' because the Bride of Christ wont be down here.

Now, if you have a bible and a few mins, let me show you were Jesus is speaking about the 2nd half of the Trib, that is The Great Trib.

So, during the 1st 3.5 yrs of the entire Trib, the Anti-Christ has come and is in Global Control.
And then the 2nd 3.5 yrs begins, and that is when Jesus teaching in Matt 24, says this...as this is prophetic.... "when you SEE the abomination of desolation"..

What is that?
That is when the AC, declares Himself to be God..

Study that out, as it might cause you to seek out the rest.
And ive already previously posted to Arthur81.... a simple point by point , play by play, map.... regarding the framework that you can use to learn what you need to know, regarding end time revelation.

 

[Behold]

The unborn are protected according to the law of God,

Proverbs 6:17

 

[wooddog]

Proverbs 6:17

The seven tenets of politicians.

 

[Behold]

The seven tenets of politicians.

Except for...


The "shedding of innocent blood" is not a USA Republican " Party Platform"..... as this Party tends to vote for a baby's right to stay alive in the womb, vs being assassinated in it's mother's womb..... which is really just a post-conception birth control execution of a heart beat., in most cases.

 

[Arthur81]

@Arthur81 Let me give you the basics, as a simple teaching..vs..... lots of scriptures, piled up in a stack..... as that wont really help you to understand.., as if they could, you would already have the understanding.
So, you dont need 450 verses.. you need to just have a foundation for you to RECOGNIZE.... which allows the Bible and the Holy Spirit to fill the rest in for you.

So let me show you "seasons" and "times".

1.) The entire Bible is a book of progressive revelation.

This means we are reading HOW, .....God deals with man, differently,..... over the course of the word of God as "seasons" and "time".

To understand this, we have to do what Paul tells us to do...

= "Rightly Divide" the word,....... as the divisions in the word, show us the distinctions, regarding, what God was doing, vs, what God is doing, vs, what God will do next.
And to get this wrong is to wrongly divide the word and that leads to 45,000 denominations in the world.

Now, all of this is found in the BIBLE.... as God's "Foreknowledge" and none of it is pre-destined.

The Bible is not a book of pre-destination.. its a book of REVELATION..
Its not a Book that is pre-destining, .. Its a Supernatural book that is always revealing what has happened, is happening, and is going to happen.
Its a Supernatural REVEAL regarding what God has done, is doing, and is going to do.

Now, Look at this simple study.., Reader.

1.) From Adam to Moses.

2.) From Moses to Jesus

3.) From Jesus to the beginning of the Trib,... is the "TIME of the Gentiles".......that ends with the Rapture of the Body of Christ.. that begins the Tribulation.

4.) From the Trib, to the Great Trib

5.) From the Grt Trib, to the 2nd Advent.

6.) From the 2nd Advent, to the Millennial Reign of Jesus .


See those 6,. changes?

Each of those is.......What God did, and then changed to the next., and to the next.

Notice Adam to Moses..
What changed?
What changed is that MOSES LAW came, and the 10 Commandments, which was not in the Garden of Eden, but when God decided to start the new "season" and "time".. .He brought in THE LAW.

See all that?
Now, put the rest together, like that.. and you see that God is changing How He deals with Man.. over time...
That is God dealing differently with Mankind as the BIBLE reveals this to us, from cover to cover...
Study it. Listen to a good teacher... Grow in Grace and revelation knowledge so that you become... "as many as be PERFECT".

So where are we, in this REVELATION ?
WE are still in "the time of the Gentiles' that began when The Cross OF CHRIST birthed the Church, the Body of Christ... = CHRISTIANITY.

And the church is now in the end of the ""time of the Gentiles"", just before the Trib Starts, and that is why Jesus is going to crack the sky and take us out of here.........so very soon.
Get ready.. and look for it.
And then, God is going to resume, specifically, His dealing with the JEWS.. .that starts with the "end of the time of the Gentiles".

You are a religious Whac-A-Mole practitioner. I had challenged you to show the following -

To "find a rapture, that is connected with a 7-year tribulation to follow" and "Where do you find a FUTURE great tribulation in scripture?" (I'm still waiting for your answer on those two specific challenges)

You come back with "seasons" and "time" quotes without giving a reference or context and how you are applying them. The word "time" is found 749 times in the KJV, and "seasons" plural, 12 times. What are you talking about? Next you jump to "rightly divide" from 2 Tim. 2:15 and ramble on about past, present and future and then by human invention dividing time into 6 periods. The verse reads -

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2Tim 2:15 KJV)

The thing that pops into my mind on this "rightly dividing" is how Sis says to me, "I'll divide the last piece of cake, and you can then choose which one you want". To bring it closer to the Bible, I see it quite clearly divided, the NT from the OT. Paul, who I believe wrote Hebrews, mentions the OT/Old Covenant and NT/New Covenant in Heb. 8:8, 13; 9:4; 12:24, dividing or separating one from the other. Paul over and over emphasizes difference between Law and Grace, between Law and Gospel which CANNOT be mixed. When Paul uses the word "dispensation" he is referring to this contrast, it is in this context, dividing law from gospel -

"For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me." (1Cor 9:17 KJV)
"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:" (Eph 3:2 KJV)

Paul makes clear what he means by "dispensation", and it is the dividing line of NT/Covenant from OT/Covenant; as can be seen also in John's gospel -

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." (John 1:17 KJV)

I can only see in your reply what I had charged your system with before, a convoluted mish-mash of man-made ideas. Because 2 Tim. 2:15 in the KJV is so misused by many, most modern English versions translate something such as -

"Give diligence to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, handling aright the word of truth." (2Tim 2:15 ASV of 1901)
or
"Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved by him, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly explaining the word of truth." (2Ti 2:15 NRSVue of 2021)

Strong's definition of the Greek word orthotomeō that is translated "rightly dividing" in the KJV is - "to make a straight cut, that is, (figuratively) to dissect (expound) correctly (the divine message)"
the BDAG defines the usage in 2 Tim. 2:15 as
"...would prob. mean guide the word of truth along a straight path (like a road that goes straight to its goal), without being turned aside by wordy debates or impious talk"

 

[wooddog]

Except for...


The "shedding of innocent blood" is not a USA Republican " Party Platform"..... as this Party tends to vote for a baby's right to stay alive in the womb, vs being assassinated in it's mother's womb..... which is really just a post-conception birth control execution of a heart beat., in most cases.

U.S. bombs and innocent blood go hand in hand. Abortion is still legal in most all states.

 

[Behold]

You are a religious Whac-A-Mole practitioner.

Im born again.
You're only a water baptized Catholic.
So, that disconnect, is wider then you know.

To "find a rapture, that is connected with a 7-year tribulation to follow" and "Where do you find a FUTURE great tribulation in scripture?"

I did connect it for you. @Arthur81 .

You just dont understand it..

I showed you the seasons and the times....

For example.....The "Rapture, that is the "Catching away"

This is found in Paul's 1 Thess 4

But as i previously explained to you......, if i only post verses, this does not help you, as you have verses, and this does not help you.
What helps you, is to be given the understanding, so that the verses then underpin the revelation.

The thing that pops into my mind on this "rightly dividing.

The only thing that should be known regarding "rightly Dividing" the New Testament, is Paul's verse that defines it.

And he speaks of "rightly dividing " the word of God...........and that is the entirety of the Bible.

I showed you the basics, starting from Adam, and continuing to the Millennial reign of Christ.

Paul makes clear what he means by "dispensation",-

Ive not posted the word "dispensation" even once.
What i did for you was "rightly divide" the Bible, into a basic end time concordance map.

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." (John 1:17 KJV)

This which you posted.. is..

"From Moses to The Cross".

Go back and notice my previous post.
Its right there for you.

"Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved by him,

Listen,
we are approved by God, not by self effort, but by the Cross of Christ.

"Not according our WORKS but according to God's MERCY".......is why we are "approved of God", in the "Time of the Gentiles".

And because the Born again Christian, is forever "approved".... is the reason we "present ourselves (our body)...as a living sacrifice to God, as our reasonable SERVICE">.. Paul teaches..

So, we do this, not to try to be approved, or to try to be accepted by God,... but because we have already been redeemed, and are now "in Christ", and "ONE with God".

Strong's definition of the Greek word orthotomeō that is translated "rightly dividing" in the KJV is - "to make a straight cut, that is, (figuratively) to dissect (expound) correctly (the divine message)"

Yes, i aleady explained this to you, in my previous post..... as "wrongly dividing" the word...which has literally created "45,000 denominations", and of course the "cult of Mary"... "Calvinism">.. and many others whose theology is a "doctrine of Devils"...
Hebrews 13:9

 

[Arthur81]

NKJV
22 “If men [d]fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that [e]she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

The unborn are protected according to the law of God, which shows His will, that the unborn is a person as the one that kills them must pay life for life, it's murder to God taking the life of someone not ready to be born.

The unborn from the time of viability, ensoulment, is when the unborn becomes a person. It is clear that the evangelical translators twist the words to fit their particular views, not what the Hebrew or Greek texts say.

"If men quarrel, and one strike a woman with child, and she miscarry indeed, but live herself: he shall be answerable for so much damage as the woman's husband shall require, and as arbiters shall award." (Exod 21:22 Douay-Rheims of 1609)

The NASB 1977, an evangelical translation
“And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide."

The debate over Roe vs Wade, the abortion battle begins in earnest so look what the NASB does in 1995 -

The NASB 1995, an evangelical translation
“If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide."

The 1995 NASB changed from the standard translation or understanding, to support the anti-abortion ideas.

The Puritan John Trapp, born 1601, on Ex.21:22 -
"And yet no mischief follow, — i.e., No life be lost. There is a time, then, when the embryo is not alive; therefore the soul is not begotten, but infused after a time by God. Infundendo creatur, et creando infnnditur, saith Augustine, who at first doubted, till overcome by Jerome’s arguments."

Scott, the NKJV you quoted did the same thing as the 1995 NASB, did away with "miscarriage" because it did not fit the anti-abortion crowd's ideas! This is one reason I don't trust the evangelical versions and primarily stay with the standard versions: KJV, RV, ASV, RSV, NRSV, NRSVue, etc.

A common sense view of the verse shows how the evangelicals change the translation. When the brother in horse play with his pregnant sister gets a bit rough, momma decries "Watch it, or you'll cause your sister to lose the child!" I do not ever remember a momma shouting "Watch it, or you'll cause your sister to give birth prematurely!"

From an article found in the 1952 RSV:
"A recent speaker has told of a project to issue 'a theologically conservative translation of the Bible.' Doubtless this is an appealing undertaking in the eyes of many. But the fact must be stressed that there is no place for theology in Bible translation, whether conservative or radical or whatever else. A 'theological translation' is not a translation at all, but merely a dogmatic perversion of the Bible. Linguistic science knows no theology; those of most contradictory views can meet on common ground devoid of polemic, agreed that Hebrew words mean such and such, and their inflection and syntactical relations imply this or that. These facts establish an agreed translation. Then, and then only, may the exegete and dogmatist busy himself with theological deductions from the thoughts of the Biblical writers. The Bible translator is not an expositor; however pronounced his views about Biblical doctrines, he has no right whatever to intrude his opinions into the translation, or to permit his dogmatic convictions to qualify or shape its wording. His one responsibility, and it is absolute, is to render the Biblical meaning as accurately and effectively as is possible into appropriate English." page 14

https://ia903104.us.archive.org/13/items/introductiontore00inte/introductiontore00inte.pdf

 

[Behold]

U.S. bombs and innocent blood go hand in hand.

Well, that is your opinion, and you shared it.

My View... according to Israel...... is that If IRAN fathered terrorist "proxy", soldiers,.. tie a Palestinian infant to their chest with a rope, and then tries to murder more Jews, ....and then the Israeli Jet hits their Church because 457 of these Terrorist are hiding in there, hiding behind innocent Palestinian Children... then while im deeply saddened that the children were killed, and the church was destroyed......i recognize that this is the behavior of these Quran duped devils, and ......so be it.
Its ugly, its wrong, but that is how they behave, and the only thing that makes them stop is when they are caused to stop breathing.
And the sooner the better, for the rest of the world that just wants to live in peace.

Abortion is still legal in most all states.

Some people confuse "legal" with "moral", and this type of mentality, has nothing to do with Truth.

 

[Scott Downey]

The unborn from the time of viability, ensoulment, is when the unborn becomes a person. It is clear that the evangelical translators twist the words to fit their particular views, not what the Hebrew or Greek texts say.

"If men quarrel, and one strike a woman with child, and she miscarry indeed, but live herself: he shall be answerable for so much damage as the woman's husband shall require, and as arbiters shall award." (Exod 21:22 Douay-Rheims of 1609)

The NASB 1977, an evangelical translation
“And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide."

The debate over Roe vs Wade, the abortion battle begins in earnest so look what the NASB does in 1995 -

The NASB 1995, an evangelical translation
“If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide."

The 1995 NASB changed from the standard translation or understanding, to support the anti-abortion ideas.

The Puritan John Trapp, born 1601, on Ex.21:22 -
"And yet no mischief follow, — i.e., No life be lost. There is a time, then, when the embryo is not alive; therefore the soul is not begotten, but infused after a time by God. Infundendo creatur, et creando infnnditur, saith Augustine, who at first doubted, till overcome by Jerome’s arguments."

Scott, the NKJV you quoted did the same thing as the 1995 NASB, did away with "miscarriage" because it did not fit the anti-abortion crowd's ideas! This is one reason I don't trust the evangelical versions and primarily stay with the standard versions: KJV, RV, ASV, RSV, NRSV, NRSVue, etc.

A common sense view of the verse shows how the evangelicals change the translation. When the brother in horse play with his pregnant sister gets a bit rough, momma decries "Watch it, or you'll cause your sister to lose the child!" I do not ever remember a momma shouting "Watch it, or you'll cause your sister to give birth prematurely!"

From an article found in the 1952 RSV:
"A recent speaker has told of a project to issue 'a theologically conservative translation of the Bible.' Doubtless this is an appealing undertaking in the eyes of many. But the fact must be stressed that there is no place for theology in Bible translation, whether conservative or radical or whatever else. A 'theological translation' is not a translation at all, but merely a dogmatic perversion of the Bible. Linguistic science knows no theology; those of most contradictory views can meet on common ground devoid of polemic, agreed that Hebrew words mean such and such, and their inflection and syntactical relations imply this or that. These facts establish an agreed translation. Then, and then only, may the exegete and dogmatist busy himself with theological deductions from the thoughts of the Biblical writers. The Bible translator is not an expositor; however pronounced his views about Biblical doctrines, he has no right whatever to intrude his opinions into the translation, or to permit his dogmatic convictions to qualify or shape its wording. His one responsibility, and it is absolute, is to render the Biblical meaning as accurately and effectively as is possible into appropriate English." page 14

https://ia903104.us.archive.org/13/items/introductiontore00inte/introductiontore00inte.pdf

Here is the Geneva 1599 bible, can't say that is changed to accommodate anti abortionists of a more modern era.

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 21 - 1599 Geneva Bible

Temporal and civil ordinances appointed by God touching servitude, murders, and wrongs: the observation whereof doth not justify a man, but are given to bridle our corrupt nature, which else would break out into all mischief and cruelty. Now these are the laws, which thou shalt set before them...

www.biblegateway.com

22 ¶ Also if men strive and hurt a woman with child, so that her child depart from her and [s]death follow not, he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband shall appoint him, or he shall pay as the [t]Judges determine.

23 But if death follow, then thou shalt pay life for life.

24 [u]Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

It also a question of was the women visibly pregnant, IMO, as that would be something everyone would have seen involved in the judging. A woman may know she is pregnant from the signs, but people around her back then would have to agree she was pregnant in order to exact a life for a life. In the LAW everything had to be established with two or three witnesses.

Only one witness, such as the women herself, would not qualify for the judgement. And witnesses have to be separate from the incident persons.

Deuteronomy 17:6
Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses; he shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness.

Matthew 18:16
But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’

 

[Arthur81]

Im born again.
You're only a water baptized Catholic.
So, that disconnect, is wider then you know.



I did connect it for you. @Arthur81 .

You just dont understand it..

I showed you the seasons and the times....

For example.....The "Rapture, that is the "Catching away"

This is found in Paul's 1 Thess 4

But as i previously explained to you......, if i only post verses, this does not help you, as you have verses, and this does not help you.
What helps you, is to be given the understanding, so that the verses then underpin the revelation.



The only thing that should be known regarding "rightly Dividing" the New Testament, is Paul's verse that defines it.

And he speaks of "rightly dividing " the word of God...........and that is the entirety of the Bible.

I showed you the basics, starting from Adam, and continuing to the Millennial reign of Christ.



Ive not posted the word "dispensation" even once.
What i did for you was "rightly divide" the Bible, into a basic end time concordance map.




This which you posted.. is..

"From Moses to The Cross".

Go back and notice my previous post.
Its right there for you.



Listen,
we are approved by God, not by self effort, but by the Cross of Christ.

"Not according our WORKS but according to God's MERCY".......is why we are "approved of God", in the "Time of the Gentiles".

And because the Born again Christian, is forever "approved".... is the reason we "present ourselves (our body)...as a living sacrifice to God, as our reasonable SERVICE">.. Paul teaches..

So, we do this, not to try to be approved, or to try to be accepted by God,... but because we have already been redeemed, and are now "in Christ", and "ONE with God".



Yes, i aleady explained this to you, in my previous post..... as "wrongly dividing" the word...which has literally created "45,000 denominations", and of course the "cult of Mary"... "Calvinism">.. and many others whose theology is a "doctrine of Devils"...
Hebrews 13:9

I'll not waste time on all of your incoherent nonsense of eschatology where you go off on a tangent into Catholicism, predestination or Calvinism, which have NOTHING to do with my challenge to you. I had asked for biblical support on your idea of a rapture in our future, that is Christians snatched away out of the mass of mankind, and then some 7-year great tribulation to follow that. You answered to me -

"I did connect it for you. You just dont understand it..I showed you the seasons and the times....
For example.....The "Rapture, that is the "Catching away" This is found in Paul's 1 Thess 4"

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1Thess 4:16-18 KJV)

The underlined is the Greek harpazo which is as shown, "caught up", plucked or taken by force. Yes, that can be understood as "rapture". In fact, John Gill who believed in the future 1000 year personal reign of Christ, wrote in the 18th century on this verse, "shall be caught up; suddenly, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, and with force and power; by the power of Christ, and by the ministry and means of the holy angels; and to which rapture will contribute, the agility which the bodies both of the raised and changed saints will have: and this rapture of the living saints will be together with them" The dispensationalists are deceiving when they try to connect their idea of the rapture, with that rapture historically understood in the church.

The error is not in the word "rapture", but what is added to the idea, what is not found in scripture, the idea of "left behind" and then a 7-year great tribulation. Those, such as Behold, who find this 7-year tribulation find it described in Matthew 24, but how do they make the connection? On the Olivet Discourse in chapter 24, the Baptist John Gill who used the exact word "rapture" in the 18th century, writes concerning Matthew 24:1-34 -

"...not anything that is said before, relates to the second coming of Christ, the day of judgment, and end of the world; but that all belong to the coming of the son of man, in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the end of the Jewish state."

The 18th century Methodist Joseph Benson writes on this: "For he adds, This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled, — Hereby evidently showing that he had been speaking all this while only of the calamities coming on the Jews, and the destruction of Jerusalem."

There is no way in scripture to connect the "rapture" of 1 Thess. 4:17 to being prior to Matthew 24:1-35 misapplied to today as a future tribulation! That is ONLY done by forcing a previously held theological idea onto the scripture. This is how that false system of eschatology is built, reading into and adding to scripture what isn't there. Now, Behold is not going to attempt to refute what I've written, he is going to jump to some other topic, side-stepping this matter of the rapture. He will not show by scripture the common idea today of the rapture, which idea he seems to hold.

There is absolutely NO hint of a 7-year tribulation after the rapture in 1 Thess.4; nor is there any hint whatsoever that Matthew 24:1-35 is describing some 7-year tribulation yet to come.

 

[Behold]

I'll not waste time on all of your incoherent nonsense of eschatology where you go off on a tangent into Catholicism, predestination or Calvinism, which have NOTHING to do with my challenge to you. I had asked for biblical support on your idea of a rapture in our future,

First of all, the only challenge you are presenting, is in your mind.
Its like listening to you promote gay sex, as "love", in Threads, while you refuse NT verses that say its actually spiritual darkness and depravity.
So, you'll tell the bible that its teaching opinion, and its convoluted and so forth.

Listen..., i showed you a very simple "rightly dividing" map... and i also posted a verse that speaks about the Rapture.
I can post many verses that substantiate, but you'll reply exactly the same.

You are a typical Calvinist Catholic, mind closed "cult of mary" disciple, who will argue with a STOP sign, if you think it disagrees with your "church fathers".... or "TULIP".
And you are nothing more and nothing less....Theologically.
That is TYPICAL regarding your religious training.

 

[Arthur81]

Here is the Geneva 1599 bible, can't say that is changed to accommodate anti abortionists of a more modern era.

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 21 - 1599 Geneva Bible

Temporal and civil ordinances appointed by God touching servitude, murders, and wrongs: the observation whereof doth not justify a man, but are given to bridle our corrupt nature, which else would break out into all mischief and cruelty. Now these are the laws, which thou shalt set before them...

www.biblegateway.com

22 ¶ Also if men strive and hurt a woman with child, so that her child depart from her and [s]death follow not, he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband shall appoint him, or he shall pay as the [t]Judges determine.

23 But if death follow, then thou shalt pay life for life.

24 [u]Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

It also a question of was the women visibly pregnant, IMO, as that would be something everyone would have seen involved in the judging. A woman may know she is pregnant from the signs, but people around her back then would have to agree she was pregnant in order to exact a life for a life. In the LAW everything had to be established with two or three witnesses.

Only one witness, such as the women herself, would not qualify for the judgement. And witnesses have to be separate from the incident persons.

Deuteronomy 17:6
Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses; he shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness.

Matthew 18:16
But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’

In certain contexts, I take the idea of departing as associated with death as in:

"And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin." (Gen 35:18 KJV)

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine" (Exod 21:22 KJV)

All my early life, raised on the KJV, Ex. 21:22 meant miscarriage and not until the religious political activism came along, did I find that very often questioned among Christians.

 

[Scott Downey]

I agree, there is no one left behind, the 'rapture' is the Day of the Lord, the Day when Christ returns. And it is also the Day of the resurrection.


Notice the word 'Trumpet' is used

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [a]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Aligns with this here. This is the Last Day.

1 Corinthians 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

More context

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55 “O[n] Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

 

[Scott Downey]

Jesus confirms what is said, it is the Last Day that is being spoken of in 1 Thess 4
John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Of course, I don't find it shocking that people wrote fiction about the last days... but I do find it sad so many fell for it, the left behind series, which is entertaining to the fleshly mind. It just is not agreeing though with scripture.

 

[Arthur81]

First of all, the only challenge you are presenting, is in your mind.
Its like listening to you promote gay sex, as "love", in Threads, while you refuse NT verses that say its actually spiritual darkness and depravity.
So, you'll tell the bible that its teaching opinion, and its convoluted and so forth.

Listen..., i showed you a very simple "rightly dividing" map... and i also posted a verse that speaks about the Rapture.
I can post many verses that substantiate, but you'll reply exactly the same.

You are a typical Calvinist Catholic, mind closed "cult of mary" disciple, who will argue with a STOP sign, if you think it disagrees with your "church fathers".... or "TULIP".
And you are nothing more and nothing less....Theologically.
That is TYPICAL regarding your religious training.

I rest my case! Folks, see how Behold avoids trying to support his ideas by scripture. It is because his theology comes out of writings of man, rather than writings inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus confirms what is said, it is the Last Day that is being spoken of in 1 Thess 4
John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Of course, I don't find it shocking that people wrote fiction about the last days... but I do find it sad so many fell for it, the left behind series, which is entertaining to the fleshly mind. It just is not agreeing though with scripture.

In reply to Scott, this is the problem. Being raised on the KJV, 1917 Scofield, while being taught the footnotes, I was also taught to have a high view of the Bible as the truth of God. It was a real difficult period of study, over a year for sure, to begin seeing that those footnotes and what I was hearing from the pulpit, from various "Bible colleges", were reading to the Bible what is not there. You can't develop your own system of theology, and then tie together all the read into and added to scripture what is not there, to support your system. Then when you encounter footnotes that flat out contradict what the scriptures state, that system of theology is seriously misguided. One passage for example -

"And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass." (Josh 21:43-45 KJV)

You maybe can argue this did not come to completion until Solomon was king, but you surely cannot deny scripture and still keep waiting on it in this day, 3500 years after Joshua!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How in God’s name did we go from a political thread and trying to keep our country safe to another end times knock out punch out fight.

Come on people there is a time and place for this, Just just makes us as Gods people look stupid and like we can’t keep our own house in order. Why should we be trusted to keep our country in order.

 

[Behold]

The USA has a chance, via the next Election... to hopefully somewhat undo what has happened to them, since Obama's presidency released the ungodly pandora's box into their once amazing culture as immoral "rights"....., and its been magnified by Biden-Harris.

Can their election even be fair? As there are videos on utbe, even this week..... showing were Post office workers are dumping Sealed Voting Ballots, into the woods. And you have illegals trying to vote and "deep state" Fed Court Judges, trying to make sure it happens.
This is not a good situation for the Greatest Country that has ever existed.

There is something else, also..

This world is being shaken.
WW3, is as close as the USA continuing to combine with NATO to finance their real War against Russia, that is now, inside of Russia.
That's a bad idea, as every Bomb and Drone that Zelensky is now sending into Russia, has the USA/NATO stamp on it, and Putin is not going to have it... And he has warned, and His speeches are not belng allowed to be Viewed on USA NEWS MEDIA..

And of course we see what Israel is now doing, as it targets closer and closer to the heart of the Islamic Snake, who is coiled in Iran, in what is soon to be its death rattle.

What does all this mean? It means that time is up.
The Trib is near.
The Rapture is soon.

And so, God's foreknowledge knows if this world wide situation is going to pause for 4 yrs, while Trump's influence is going to change the world, away from War and Terrorism..... if he is Elected.

OR,

Kamala is in God's Foreknowledge, as the One who brings the final "no way back" for America. And in that Case, there will be no time out in this world, no 4 yrs of TRUMP to "pause" much of the chaos that is let loose since Biden and Harris enabled it..... and in that case this world's chaos... will just increase in evil and hopelessness.... and this is going to eventually cause what is necessary for the Anti-Christ to arrive.

The born again, will not be here for that event.
Stay ready.