The curious case of John 5:4

[Ritajanice]

The Bible can only be studied in Gods strength..he opens it up to us, via his Spirit, he gives us eyes to see and ears to hear..never take credit away from God, it will be your downfall, imo.

The Holy Spirit is our guide and helper..we know nothing without him.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Bible can only be studied in Gods strength..he opens it up to us, via his Spirit, he gives us eyes to see and ears to hear..never take credit away from God, it will be your downfall, imo.

1 Cor 2:14.....
states that the natural man cannot even understand the bible.
Only a born again person can understand spiritual things.
How can someone without the spirit understand something about the spirit?
He can't.
Jesus said we must be born again....

 

[Ritajanice]

1 Cor 2:14.....
states that the natural man cannot even understand the bible.
Only a born again person can understand spiritual things.
How can someone without the spirit understand something about the spirit?
He can't.
Jesus said we must be born again....

You’re on the ball Sis..I need to catch up.lol.

 

[Matthias]

If I even remember right....
The student spoke to a Muslim that created doubts as to the verocity of the bible.

Yes. That is what happened.

Does the Muslim student realize that the Qu'ran is under suspicion?

The Muslim in the incident wasn’t a student. If the student who was speaking with the Muslim, attempting to evangelize him, had any conversation with the Muslim about the reliability of the Quran, he didn’t mention it to me.

My whole point is: Why let ANYTHING cause doubt about GOD??

The student was a teenager. The way that teenagers typically think was, I’m persuaded, part of the problem.

What about for older persons? More mature in experience and, hopefully, more stable in their thinking.

People, regardless of their age, aren’t always rationale and reasonable in their thinking. If we throw on top of that the very real activity of Satan and the demons, people may become twisted in their thinking.

Then there are those who never really were grounded in their thinking. Their believe in the existence of God is shallow. They haven’t really thought about it all that much. It is just kind of taken for granted. When challenged they aren’t prepared to discuss or defend their belief.

I’ve spoken with people who’ve told me they believe in God - but they aren’t sure if he ( orshe) is really active in people’s lives; desists.

A person could convince me tomorrow that the entire bible is a farce...

No person could ever convince me tomorrow that the entire Bible (or even a portion of it) is a farce.

I'D STILL BELIEVE IN GOD and worship Him.

If we aren’t certain that God is the God of the Bible - and how could we be certain if we were somehow convinced that “the entire Bible is a farce”? - wouldn’t that be a reason to pause?

I hesitate to touch on it here but I will: is there such a thing as a generic God? (This has been the subject of discussion in other threads in the not too distant past. Everyone believes in ”God“ believes in the same “God”?)

Yes, I agree that this strategy would not work for everyone...that's a given.
Different folk require different solutions....I certainly don't know all of them.

 

[Ritajanice]

No person could ever convince me tomorrow that the entire Bible is a farce.

I 100% agree...they would never convince me of that either.

 

[Matthias]

You don’t know that, it is just your own opinion being voiced.only God knows who are his children.

So it is your testimony that you have no idea who God’s children are?

We have a relationship with the heart of God, which isn’t the Bible..the Bible is there to back up what we believe we hear from God...plus he and only he, brings us to understand the scriptures.

The Holy Spirit is the truth bearer..the Bible backs up what the Spirit witnesses to our heart / spirit, hence we must be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God....which means ..supernaturally Born Of Gods seed.

You get some Bible preachers, who sadly imo, don’t know the heart of God...and that my friends is the place you need to know him, first and foremost...in the heart..just as his word says.

 

[Ritajanice]

So it is your testimony that you have no idea who God’s children are?

And you know who Gods children are do you?

You know who all the Born Again are do you?

I think not.

We are all at different levels of spiritual understanding.

In Colossians 1:9-10Paul prayed that we would be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding. That we would have a walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.


We need to know the heart of God....we should also represent Jesus....

A Born Again can never be taught by a fake believer...they can only be taught by the Holy Spirit.
Mind blowing!!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

1 Cor 2:14.....
states that the natural man cannot even understand the bible.
Only a born again person can understand spiritual things.
How can someone without the spirit understand something about the spirit?
He can't.
Jesus said we must be born again....

However. A non believer is given knowledge of the gospel. so he can make an informed decision to say yes God I want your gift. or no God. take your gift and >>>>>>

 

[Matthias]

John said that he writes these things so that we can know we have eternal life.
So that we can know that if we sin we have an advocate.
Yes....Paul wrote the entire Christian theology so that we can know how to be saved.
I'm sure he wanted it to be studied.

But, aren't you just a LITTLE prejudiced?

Everyone, myself included, is biased.

Of course a retired pastor is going to believe that the bible is to be studied.
Can you admit that not everyone will study it?

Yes. It’s appalling to me, and not only me, how many people don’t study the Bible. Dusty Bibles are common.

Can they still be saved?

Yes, but they must hear and believe the gospel that Jesus and the Apostles preached in order to be saved.

I'm starting to wonder if perhaps this is what you're believing....

What I believe is that the intelligent reception of, belief in, and obedience to the gospel is necessary.

Why? Was he not saved already?

He was not saved already.

Was he not already studying?

He was studying.

But he STILL did not understand what he was studying!
As I've been saying all along....it's not that simple to study.

That doesn’t lessen or dismiss the need to study.

And how about Lidia?
Was she not saved already?
She was a worshipper of God.

She was a believer in God and worshipped God. She believed that the God whom she worshipped would raise up the Messiah someday. She needed to become persuaded, and she did become persuaded, that Jesus of Nazareth is the man whom her God (and his God) raised up from among the people, that he is in fact the promised Messiah.

They both learned WHO saved them....

God saved them (and everyone who will be saved; not everyone will be saved) through the human Messiah.

They both needed to SHURF -> from the parable of the sower (see, hear, understand, repent and be forgiven).

but my understanding is that they were already saved.

Mine isn’t.

Agreed.


Of course t his happens....
If there's some tranformation in their life, then I'd have to agree.
If there's no transformation, then I'd be doubtful....but only God can know for sure.

 

[Matthias]

I never thought the bible is NOT reliable.

The student didn’t think the Bible was unreliable, then he did (briefly) doubt that it is reliable, then he recovered with my assistance. (And perhaps with the assistance of others that I’m not aware of.) This thread was designed with a twofold purpose: (1) Would you be able to help such a person if the experience I had came up at some point in your own experience; (2) IF you would be able to, how would you go about doing it.

If we can't rely on the bible...WHAT would we rely on?

A question that would likely need to be asked of anyone who expresses doubt, or even outright disbelief, in the reliability of the Bible.

Like I said prev....this is a tough topic.

Yes. I gather that many haven’t really thought much, if any, about it. They may think they would be able to help but haven’t prepared for such an occurrence. Those who have prepared may or may not be able to succeed in helping but they likely stand a better chance than those who aren’t prepared in advance.

One of the assumptions I made in the OP is that my audience would want to help. Some of the responses showed me that the assumption was largely, but not entirely, correct.

GOD CREATED EVERYTHING...
Did it take 6 days?
Does this take away from the fact that GOD created everything if it doesn't?

Do you see a difference?

Quite frankly, I believe the first chapters of Genesis display a knowledge of man's psychology that is unfathomable for those times when man was supposed to be "primitive". God's inspiration is certainly in those chapters.

That’s a good topic for another thread.

 

[Matthias]

Agreed.
The bible is a source of knowledge that has been supplied by God...it can be studied to come to know different things about Him.
But we have to KNOW HIM FIRST in order to understand anything it says.

It could also be a comfort, as you said.

And, as I've stated already, a person may never read a bible but still have a profound relationship with God.

It has to be more than a just a comfort, doesn’t it?

 

[Matthias]

And you know who Gods children are do you?

You know who all the Born Again are do you?

I think not.

You, apparently, don’t know any who are, besides yourself.

We are all at different levels of spiritual understanding.

Yes.

In Colossians 1:9-10Paul prayed that we would be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding. That we would have a walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.


We need to know the heart of God....we should also represent Jesus....

The heart of God, the mind of God, is revealed in the (reliable) Bible.

A Born Again can never be taught by a fake believer...they can only be taught by the Holy Spirit.
Mind blowing!!

I’ve seen what you say can’t happen, happen.

I would refer all of my readers to the parable of the sower.

 

[Johann]

You, apparently, don’t know any who are, besides yourself.



Yes.



The heart of God, the mind of God, is revealed in the (reliable) Bible.



I’ve seen what you say can’t happen, happen.

I would refer all of my readers to the parable of the sower.

Word of caution, you are speaking to some "favorites" in the upper echelon brother @Matthias.

J.

 

[Ritajanice]

You, apparently, don’t know any who are, besides yourself.

Did I say that.

How about you.,,who are the Born Again.

Yes.



The heart of God, the mind of God, is revealed in the (reliable) Bible.

Indeed it is..but, the heart and mind of God isn’t the Bible.

I’ve seen what you say can’t happen, happen.

I would refer all of my readers to the parable of the sower.

Have you.

 

[Matthias]

Word of caution, you are speaking to some "favorites" in the upper echelon brother @Matthias.

J.

I try to abide by the rules of the Board. What is the worst that they can do?

If they treat me fairly, I won’t be harmed. If they treat me unfairly, they are harming themselves.

 

[Johann]

I try to abide by the rules of the Board. What is the worst that they can do?

If they treat me fairly, I won’t be harmed. If they treat me unfairly, they are harming themselves.

Don't mind me, keep on doing what you are doing, sterling work.

J.

 

[Matthias]

Did I say that.

“Only God knows who are his children” (post #538).

You aren’t him, so, apply the standard to yourself. When you do, what does it look like?

How about you.,,who are the Born Again.

Indeed it is..but, the heart and mind of God isn’t the Bible.

***

Have you.

Yes, as a search of my posts would demonstrate.

 

[Matthias]

Don't mind me, keep on doing what you are doing, sterling work.

J.

Thank you.

 

[Ritajanice]

“Only God knows who are his children” (post #538).

You aren’t him, so, apply the standard to yourself. When you do, what does it look like?

i never said I was him..only God knows who his children are..that is what I said.

 

[Matthias]

i never said I was him..only God knows who his children are..that is what I said.

So now that takes us back to “You, apparently, don’t know any who are, besides yourself.”