The curious case of John 5:4

[Matthias]

Jesus infers that they are not.

John 5:39 NIV
You study[a] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life.
These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,

[

No. I think you’re misunderstanding what Jesus is saying. They were right to think that eternal life is found in studying scripture because he is the life and they testify about him. Scripture is reliable.

How helpful would it be to someone who is struggling over the issue of the reliability of scripture to be shown that Jesus himself believes they are reliable?

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus infers that they are not.

John 5:39 NIV
You study[a] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life.
These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,

[

Not only that, but WHICH scriptures?
The NT did not exist at this time.

@Matthias

 

[Matthias]

Not only that, but WHICH scriptures?
The NT did not exist at this time.

@Matthias

Jesus was referring to the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament).

I think it would be extremely helpful to someone struggling over the reliability of the Bible to be shown that the Messiah himself believes in the reliability of the scriptures.

If scripture isn’t reliable the Messiah wouldn’t be found saying in the NT, as he is, that they testify about him.

 

[Matthias]

If Paul didn’t think the Hebrew Bible was reliable would he have written Romans 15:4? Would he have quoted or alluded to the Hebrew Bible if he thought it was unreliable? Would the other NT writers have done so if they thought the scriptures were unreliable?

 

[Johann]

View attachment 51484
If Paul didn’t think the Hebrew Bible was reliable would he have written Romans 15:4? Would he have quoted or alluded to the Hebrew Bible if he thought it was unreliable? Would the other NT writers have done so if they thought the scriptures were unreliable?

Preach it brother @Matthias



J.

 

[Lambano]

The sufficiency of scripture. Where is that if the Bible is unreliable?

Matthias, my own issues with fundamentalism and biblical inerrancy are two:

1. I cannot believe the earth is only 6000 years old; things like carbon dating, archaeology, red-shift, fossil record, etc. rule against it. The Baptist church we went to when I was a teen was pretty adamant that I'm not even allowed to read Genesis 1 as beautiful poetry affirming God's good creation if I don't believe it to be literally true.

2. There are contradictions in the Bible, and the apologists perform all kinds of unnatural acts on the text itself to make the problem go away. My favorite example is, how did Judas Iscariot meet his end? Matthew says he hanged himself; Luke says he splattered in a fall. The venerable John MacArthur (for whom I once had great respect) offered this cockamamie story about the rope breaking in order to explain away the conflicting testimony. Plausible? WHY IS IT EVEN NECESSARY TO ADD TO THE TEXT? (Excuse me for shouting.)

I want to help those who have doubts, but in the case of your student, I may be the wrong person. Or, I may be the right person. I just don't know.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

1. I cannot believe the earth is only 6000 years old; things like carbon dating, archaeology, red-shift, fossil record, etc. rule against it. The Baptist church we went to when I was a teen was pretty adamant that I'm not even allowed to read Genesis 1 as beautiful poetry affirming God's good creation if I don't believe it to be literally true.

if I may, I totally disagree with everything you said here. I believe the opposite.

But for a church to say you can not read it as you want. I disagree with that just as much. especially on a subject that is non salvic.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus was referring to the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament).

I think it would be extremely helpful to someone struggling over the reliability of the Bible to be shown that the Messiah himself believes in the reliability of the scriptures.

If scripture isn’t reliable the Messiah wouldn’t be found saying in the NT, as he is, that they testify about him.

But they do testify about Him.
The OT that is.

Won't get any argument from me....

I don't think anyone on this thread is STRUGGLING with the reliability of the bible.
I think what they're saying is that there might be some error and it's good to know so a person will not lose his faith over it.

Having AN ERROR in a book and its being UNRELIABLE are two totally different ideas.
Unreliable means you can't believe ANYTHING it states.

 

[Matthias]

But they do testify about Him.
The OT that is.

Won't get any argument from me....

Reliability of the Bible established then?

I don't think anyone on this thread is STRUGGLING with the reliability of the bible.

I do.

I think what they're saying is that there might be some error and it's good to know so a person will not lose his faith over it.

Having AN ERROR in a book and its being UNRELIABLE are two totally different ideas.
Unreliable means you can't believe ANYTHING it states.

 

[Ritajanice]

I don't think anyone on this thread is STRUGGLING with the reliability of the bible.

I’m not..the informer is the Holy Spirit, only he can bring us to salvation, the Bible tells the story of how one can be Born Of The Spirit, the story of Jesus, etc,etc, ..once Born Again one will start to grow and mature in the scriptures, the leading through scripture ,is that of the Spirit, no Spirit to lead you,
Then one would just be leading themselves.

On saying that, I’m sure the Bible is a great comfort to some.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

But they do testify about Him.
The OT that is.

Won't get any argument from me....

I don't think anyone on this thread is STRUGGLING with the reliability of the bible.
I think what they're saying is that there might be some error and it's good to know so a person will not lose his faith over it.

Having AN ERROR in a book and its being UNRELIABLE are two totally different ideas.
Unreliable means you can't believe ANYTHING it states.

great explanation

 

[GodsGrace]

Reliability of the Bible established then?

I never thought the bible is NOT reliable.

I do.

If we can't rely on the bible...WHAT would we rely on?
Like I said prev....this is a tough topic.

GOD CREATED EVERYTHING...
Did it take 6 days?
Does this take away from the fact that GOD created everything if it doesn't?

Do you see a difference?

Quite frankly, I believe the first chapters of Genesis display a knowledge of man's psychology that is unfathomable for those times when man was supposed to be "primitive". God's inspiration is certainly in those chapters.

 

[GodsGrace]

I’m not..the informer is the Holy Spirit, only he can bring us to salvation, the Bible tells the story of how one can be Born Of The Spirit, the story of Jesus, etc,etc, ..once Born Again one will start to grow and mature in the scriptures, the leading through scripture ,is that of the Spirit, no Spirit to lead you,
Then one would just be leading themselves.

On saying that, I’m sure the Bible is a great comfort to some.

Agreed.
The bible is a source of knowledge that has been supplied by God...it can be studied to come to know different things about Him.
But we have to KNOW HIM FIRST in order to understand anything it says.

It could also be a comfort, as you said.

And, as I've stated already, a person may never read a bible but still have a profound relationship with God.

 

[Ritajanice]

Agreed.
The bible is a source of knowledge that has been supplied by God...it can be studied to come to know different things about Him.
But we have to KNOW HIM FIRST in order to understand anything it says.

It could also be a comfort, as you said.

And, as I've stated already, a person may never read a bible but still have a profound relationship with God.

Excellently explained, thank you.

 

[Matthias]

I want to help those who have doubts, but in the case of your student, I may be the wrong person. Or, I may be the right person. I just don't know.

You’ve touched with this comment on the part of my OP that has been almost wholly passed over -> “Would you have been able to help the shaken student?”

By design, I wanted people to ask themselves that question.

Some people are confident they could have and, I think, could have.

Some are confident that they could have, but I’m not sure that they would have been able to. They might. I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Some are confident, mistakenly, that there was never a problem to begin with.

A few, without questioning their motive, would, I think, have destroyed the student.

You are one who has seriously considered whether you could have helped and come to the realization that, at least at the moment, you may or may not have been not be able to. I think that in itself is a valuable thing.

 

[GodsGrace]

You’ve touched with this comment on the part of my OP that has been almost wholly passed over -> “Would you have been able to help the shaken student?”

By design, I wanted people to ask themselves that question.

Some people are confident they could have and, I think, could have.

Some are confident that they could have, but I’m not sure that they would have been able to. They might. I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Some are confident, mistakenly, that there was never a problem to begin with.

A few, without questioning their motive, would, I think, have destroyed the student.

You are one who has seriously considered whether you could have helped and come to the realization that, at least at the moment, you may or may not have been not be able to. I think that in itself is a valuable thing.

If I even remember right....
The student spoke to a Muslim that created doubts as to the verocity of the bible.
Does the Muslim student realize that the Qu'ran is under suspicion?
My whole point is: Why let ANYTHING cause doubt about GOD??
A person could convince me tomorrow that the entire bible is a farce...
I'D STILL BELIEVE IN GOD and worship Him.
Yes, I agree that this strategy would not work for everyone...that's a given.
Different folk require different solutions....I certainly don't know all of them.

 

[Matthias]

Agreed.
The bible is a source of knowledge that has been supplied by God...it can be studied to come to know different things about Him.

The expectation of the biblical writers is that it would be studied.

But we have to KNOW HIM FIRST in order to understand anything it says.

The Ethiopian eunuch comes to mind as an opposition.

It could also be a comfort, as you said.

And, as I've stated already, a person may never read a bible but still have a profound relationship with God.

For that to happen, someone who has read the Bible likely set the person on that course.

Have you listened to people who don’t have a profound relationship with God speak as if they do? People who sincerely believe that they do but they don’t?

 

[Ritajanice]

Have you listened to people who don’t have a profound relationship with God speak as if they do? People who sincerely believe that they do but they don’t?

You don’t know that, it is just your own opinion being voiced.only God knows who are his children.

We have a relationship with the heart of God, which isn’t the Bible..the Bible is there to back up what we believe we hear from God...plus he and only he, brings us to understand the scriptures.

The Holy Spirit is the truth bearer..the Bible backs up what the Spirit witnesses to our heart / spirit, hence we must be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God....which means ..supernaturally Born Of Gods seed.

You get some Bible preachers, who sadly imo, don’t know the heart of God...and that my friends is the place you need to know him, first and foremost...in the heart..just as his word says.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You don’t know that, it just your own opinion being voiced.

he asked a question, he did not give an opinion.

why are you attacking him as if he made an opinion?

 

[GodsGrace]

The expectation of the biblical writers is that it would be studied.

John said that he writes these things so that we can know we have eternal life.
So that we can know that if we sin we have an advocate.
Yes....Paul wrote the entire Christian theology so that we can know how to be saved.
I'm sure he wanted it to be studied.

But, aren't you just a LITTLE prejudiced?
Of course a retired pastor is going to believe that the bible is to be studied.
Can you admit that not everyone will study it?
Can they still be saved?
I'm starting to wonder if perhaps this is what you're believing....

The Ethiopian eunuch comes to mind as an opposition.

Why? Was he not saved already?
Was he not already studying?
But he STILL did not understand what he was studying!
As I've been saying all along....it's not that simple to study.

And how about Lidia?
Was she not saved already?
She was a worshipper of God.

They both learned WHO saved them....
but my understanding is that they were already saved.

For that to happen, someone who has read the Bible likely set the person on that course.

Agreed.

Have you listened to people who don’t have a profound relationship with God speak as if they do? People who sincerely believe that they do but they don’t?

Of course t his happens....
If there's some tranformation in their life, then I'd have to agree.
If there's no transformation, then I'd be doubtful....but only God can know for sure.