The curious case of John 5:4

[Matthias]

What’s a shocking statement?

What you said.

We don’t need the Bible, to know that we are Born Of God’s seed.

Yes we do.

Are we on topic?

Yes.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The written word law is condemnatory. Here's the whole context.

2 Corinthians 3:6-11 NIV
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—
not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone,
came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses
because of its glory, transitory though it was,
8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?
9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious,
how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!
10 For what was glorious has no glory now
in comparison with the surpassing glory.
11 And if what was transitory came with glory,
how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

[

Yes, The law kills

But even if you study the law. You will see this, The law was never given to save, It was given to lead the people to christ.

The word says this, the issue is people read the word and fail to comprehend it, because they have their bias and do not want to see the word that shows them in error

 

[Ritajanice]

We can know that it is or it isn’t by comparing with what is recorded in the Bible.

I disagree...we know in our heart, if what we speak is of the Spirit.

Then we go to the word for confirmation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The mouth and heart should be inline with the Spirit.

Yes they should

But without the holy written word of God. You have no idea if this is happening or not.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Most respondents on this topic are trying to defend the transitory ministry of condemnation and death that has no glory now.
The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

[

Yes the law kills,

But life was promised all the way back in Gen 3: 15. and all through the OT life was promised through the word. Even paul tells timothy that as a child he had enough knowledge through the word to recieve eternal life. (note the NT was not yet in writting when Timothy was young

 

[Ritajanice]

What you said.



Yes we do.



Yes.

Sorry no we don’t...I am Born Again, would never die in Spirit, even if all the Bibles were burnt. I would still know I am Gods child,how, by His witness the Living Holy Spirit..who birthed my spirit into His Spirit.

You should know , flesh gives birth to flesh = human birth.

Spirit gives birth to spirit = Supernatural spirit birth.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We can know that it is or it isn’t by comparing with what is recorded in the Bible.

Amen, Satan comes as an angel of light, and he has decieved many

 

[Matthias]

I disagree...we know in our heart, if what we speak is of the Spirit.

Then we go to the word for confirmation.

Have you ever watched / listened to televangelists?

 

[Johann]

wow, just wow. I pray I am reading this wrong.. the bible is not the heart of God? Why did god spend 2000 years putting it together for then?

WOWO

The spirit speaks through his word. It is our knowledge of the word, as found through scripture. by which the spirit speaks.

There’s a significant lack of Scripture understanding here, and even when Scriptures are shared, “the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Corinthians 2:14, NKJV).

As Jesus said, “This people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed” (Matthew 13:15, ESV).

Only through the Holy Spirit can one truly “receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls” (James 1:21, NKJV).

Engrafted word -- the Word compared to seed implanted in the heart (RSV, etc,, cf Jesus' parable of the sower.)
“Planted” (emphyton, used only here in the NT) contrasts with grafted. The Word is to be rooted in the fertile soil of the soul. It is that Word of God which can save, Rom_1:16.
James describes the gospel as a seed that is planted in the heart (Jer_31:33).
James' wording in the "laying aside" and "receiving" indicate the voluntary nature of man's response to the gospel.

J.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I disagree...we know in our heart, if what we speak is of the Spirit.

Then we go to the word for confirmation.

Thats impossible.

and thats how 30,000 denomination have been formed (using the catholic argument)

 

[St. SteVen]

Matthias said:
The Bible represents the heart of God.

Sorry it doesn’t, The Spirit within us, should represent the heart of God

Agree.

That’s a shocking statement. Were I to hear it said from the pulpit, I would leave. A preacher who would say that is a charlatan.

Matthias said:
The Bible represents the heart of God.

That's quite a CONDEMNATION:
- Global genocide in the flood
- Local genocide slaughter of the Canaanites
- The threat of eternal conscious torment
- Use of extortion to supplant free-will

Is that what you call the heart of God?

[

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There’s a significant lack of Scripture understanding here, and even when Scriptures are shared, “the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Corinthians 2:14, NKJV).

As Jesus said, “This people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed” (Matthew 13:15, ESV).

Only through the Holy Spirit can one truly “receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls” (James 1:21, NKJV).

J.

This is true, but natural men come to God every day and By Grace through faith they are born again. because they looked to the cross.

But they still have to learn. they do not just become super knowledgeble, now more than ever they need to get into the word.

 

[Ritajanice]

Have you ever watched / listened to televangelists?

Have you listened to religion being taught.?...where there is no life in the Spirit.

Where the Spirit is, there is much life.. he’s Alive in our hearts/spirit my friend..he’s not dead.
I only listen to God, heart to heart..Spirit to spirit.

He indwells my heart, as I have been Born Of God’s seed..you do know it’s a Living seed..Gods Witness, His Living Holy Spirit, that we are Born Again of.

The Spirit plants His Living seed into our heart/ spirit, hence Born Of God’s seed.



It takes root, because it was planted by the seed of the Living God.

We become more and more like Jesus in our hearts , why, because that is where the Spirit of life is at work in us..

The Spirit is the one representing Jesus, from within our spirit..

We are his spirit children, not Born Again Bible Children.

 

[Johann]

This is true, but natural men come to God every day and By Grace through faith they are born again. because they looked to the cross.

But they still have to learn. they do not just become super knowledgeble, now more than ever they need to get into the word.

I agree-and as you can see yourself, there’s a noticeable lack of love for the Scriptures, which is definitely a red flag.

J.

 

[Ritajanice]

That’s a shocking statement. Were I to hear it said from the pulpit, I would leave. A preacher who would say that is a charlatan.

Romans 8​

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King James Version​

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8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[St. SteVen]

@Ritajanice

Sorry it doesn’t, The Spirit within us, should represent the heart of God

That’s a shocking statement. Were I to hear it said from the pulpit, I would leave. A preacher who would say that is a charlatan.

No idea how he gets "charlatan" out of that. ???
Seems to be a condemnation of anyone who is Charismatic/Pentecostal.
As if those who believe in the continuing ministry of the Spirit are only in it to take financial advantage.
What a terrible accusation!

[

 

[GodsGrace]

Guess we can ditch the "study to show yourself approved--parts" and faith cometh by hearing?
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17, NKJV)

In Greek, the phrase "hearing by the word of God" is conveyed through akoe (ἀκοή), which signifies not just casual hearing but attentive listening, indicating a form of receptive, engaged hearing where the message-the gospel, in this case-is both understood and believed. This "hearing" isn't merely an auditory experience but rather an engagement with the truth of God’s word that brings faith to life within the listener.

Through this, Paul emphasizes that genuine faith comes from being exposed to the truth of Christ, conveyed through preaching, teaching, or reading Scripture, meaning faith is initiated and sustained by the active word of God, illuminated by the Holy Spirit.


J.

You practically answered your own question in the last paragraph.
This is really derailing the thread....
so I'll just ask 2 questions, which you've really already answered:
1. Is the bible the only way to know about God?
2. Are only knowledgeable persons going to heaven - or anyone that believes in our Lord?

 

[Ritajanice]

@Ritajanice



No idea how he gets "charlatan" out of that. ???
Seems to be a condemnation of anyone who is Charismatic/Pentecostal.
As if those who believe in the continuing ministry of the Spirit are only in it to take financial advantage.
What a terrible accusation!

[

Just posted scripture above regarding commendation for those who are in Christ..the Born Again...I received that divine heart revelation.long time ago...

I’m well and truly rooted in the Spirit of Christ....not Of man’s teachings.

There is no condemnation for those who are in the Spirit Of Christ.

 

[Johann]

You practically answered your own question in the last paragraph.
This is really derailing the thread....
so I'll just ask 2 questions, which you've really already answered:
1. Is the bible the only way to know about God?
2. Are only knowledgeable persons going to heaven - or anyone that believes in our Lord?

I am derailing this thread? It's been "hijacked" a long time ago.

Your sarcasm noted.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

That’s a shocking statement. Were I to hear it said from the pulpit, I would leave. A preacher who would say that is a charlatan.



Yes, but it’s not ”our heart vs. the Bible”. They must fo together.

I'm going to have to side with @Ritajanice because I don't think you're understanding her statement.

I THINK she's saying that we have to know God in a personal way....as the bible states IN OUR HEART....
God will give us a new heart and we will all know without having to learn from our neighbors.
Ezekiel 36(?)
Jeremiah 31

Many read the bible and NEVER come a saving knowledge of God.

God must be known in our heart....
THEN the bible helps us to know Him better....

Or
We can read the bible FIRST, and then come a saving knowledge that is heart-felt...

However, in each case,,,it's the heart that saved.

Romans 10:9-10
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and if you believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you will be saved. We believe with our hearts, and so we are made right with God.