Strength and Honor: Triumphing over Feminism

[VictoryinJesus]

There's that Appeal to Subjectivism again.

An appeal to subjectivism, also known as a subjectivist fallacy or relativist fallacy, is a common fallacy in Western philosophy that occurs when someone claims that something is true for one person but not another, even though it is objectively true for all people.


Subjectivism is a form of relativism, which means that the truth-value of a judgment is neither necessary nor universal. For example, the statement "Kant was 5 feet tall" is true for everyone, but the statement "Kant walked quickly" may be true or false depending on one's own walking pace.


Some say that subjectivism can lead to chaos and anarchy in society. Without objective standards, there is no way to settle disputes or establish harmony. Others say that subjectivism can lead to pathological personality disorders


^how does 2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Fit in to appeal to subjectivism?

 

[Wrangler]

So when you say “appeal to Subjectivism”… you are saying it’s not your perspective but God’s perspective?

No. Please research the logical fallacy to better understand.

The Subjectivist Fallacy (Truth Is Not What I "Affirm")

(Bolles Harbor, Monroe) (OK - I am on a roll this morning, attacking subjective relativism. Here's a re-post.) I taught Logic at Mon...

www.johnpiippo.com

Logical Fallacy of Subjectivity / Relativist Fallacy / Subjectivist Fallacy

And from Chapter 8 Fallacy | Social Advocacy & Ethical Life

8.4.1 Subjectivism​

• Watch: Explanation by Zeng
• Because I believe or want it to be true.
• “I was just brought up to believe in X.”
• “That may be true for you, but it isn’t true for me.”

 

[Wrangler]

^how does 2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Fit in to appeal to subjectivism?

Who said that it does? To clarify, I am not saying the Bible is promoting subjectivism. I'm saying you are acting on fallacious reasoning known as appeal to subjectivism. The Bible is the ultimate example of absolute truth.

I'll give you a great example of Appeal to Subjectivism that does not involve you. A traumatic day for the country was when JFK Jr.'s plane crashed in the ocean. In the morning, I was listening to a music station. In the afternoon, I listed to Rush Limbaugh.

A woman called the music station to talk about her belief/opinion that he was still alive. The reason she gave is the hope he gives to the country, for he represents all that is good in the upcoming generation and what he and his generation might achieve is too great a loss for him to be lost. I assure you that she was very sincere. Her words were heart felt. And they were committing the fallacy of Appeal to Subjectivism.

During the Rush Limbaugh show a retired Air Force Colonel called. He explained to the audience that the plane or parts of the plane were recovered and the damage analyzed. The fuselage had signficant damage, which he said is the sturdiest part of the air craft. In order for the fuselage to be as damaged as it was means the plane was going at X speed. At that rate of speed, when the plane hit the water, the seat belts would not act as restraints but scissors. You will not find survivors but body parts. This is objective analysis.

I much preferred the woman's appeal. But I knew the retired Air Force Colonel had identified a truth, painful to me and I did not want it to be true but knew it was true. I mourn his death but not the truth.

 

[MA2444]

Why would they trust men? You think ALL men act according to God? Do you think that ALL "Christian" men behave according to God?

Let me get this straight. All men are evil?
I never said all men walk with God but I do speak from a good man perspective so I will speak good about men. Dont twist it.

You said a few pages back that you have a man and he gets you and you get him.
So was that code talk for you had to settle? After all all men are evil right?
WHy would you choose to be with an evil man that you cant trust?
You settled and are unhappy with the consequences of where you woulnd up, lol.

 

[MA2444]

Or, we believe in the SAME God, but see that God differently. Some see God as a tyrant as from the OT. Others see God as more benevolent.

If you see God as a tyrant in the OT then you do not know the same God I do.

Glad you said, 'TRYING to be'...which means that you're not quite there. NONE of us are.

Yes, so you need to grow up and understand that there are consequences in life for poor decision making. You are paying for your poor decisions now and hate it.

Is that ALL you believe? What about everything else that Christ taught?

Not at all. I believe that God instructed women to not be 304's and expect no consequences for it. Pretty simple.

I have mentioned before that I've read the bible from cover to cover TWICE, and yes there DOES appear to be many contradictions.

If you see contradictions then you need to read it a third time cover to cover.

It is your interpretation of the bible that's part of the problem. Case in point: As I pointed out to Wynona about submission, I refer to the passage of Ephesians 5:21 that says, that we are to "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." Ephesians 5:22 often begins, "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord." But I explained to Wynona that the word "submit" in 5:22 was added in later copies; not in the original Greek. Also, the word 'submit' is not the same word in Greek as 'obey.' Therefore, one can't say that Ephesians 5:22 means for wives to 'obey' their husbands.

What kind of dumbo circular logic is that? If you wouldnt ever obey a man then (no wonder your relationships never worked!) you would not obey Christ either.

Ephesians 5:22-33 describes how a wife and husband should submit to one another. A wife's submission to her husband may look (in some ways) different than how a husband submits to his wife. Paul furthers the idea of a marriage of mutual submission in 1 Corinthians 7:3-5:
Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."

So you had no control is what your trying to say? Why werent you like that to your men?
Oh the emotional thrill thing again. The excitement of doing something forbidden. Ok Eve, I can see that.

I wasn't dealt the short end of anything. Again, it's YOUR interpretation that's the problem.

Oh, go make me a sandwich.

And what would YOU say if God told you you were wrong? I know what you'd do.

You'd act like Adam. You'd blame women and blame God.

God has told me I was wrong! I would blame women and blame God?

If that's true then show me where I blamed any of the failure of my marriage on my ex wife? Show me where I have blamed God for anything? I sure have talked a lot about my ex wife so I must have put her down somewhere, right?

Silly girl.

Then go make me a sandwich, geez!

 

[Mink57]

Mink57 said:
Why would they trust men? You think ALL men act according to God? Do you think that ALL "Christian" men behave according to God?

Let me get this straight. All men are evil?

Oh puh LEEZ. I have been doing nothing but stressing the whole idea of SOME men and SOME women on this thread.
By the same token, even that guy on some of the vids that Wrangler posted admitted that not ALL feminists behave as he describes. But it seems that neither you nor Wrangler can wrap your heads around "some."

So no...not ALL* men are evil. (*= Although SOME people believe that ALL people are evil simply because we can't live up to Christ's standards)

I never said all men walk with God but I do speak from a good man perspective so I will speak good about men. Dont twist it.

I'm not 'twisting' anything, but YOU SURE ARE.
Also, I asked before what YOUR definition of a "good" man is, but you didn't respond. But I can almost guarantee you that YOUR definition would probably be quite different from my own.

You said a few pages back that you have a man and he gets you and you get him.
So was that code talk for you had to settle? After all all men are evil right?

Never said that all men are evil. Never believed that.
And even though my 'man of interest' gets me, and I get him, that's not the ONLY criteria I've used.

Wy would you choose to be with an evil man that you cant trust?
You settled and are unhappy with the consequences of where you woulnd up, lol.

I didn't choose to be with an evil man I can't trust. Most of the men I dated started out with a clean slate. I'd trust them...until I learned that I couldn't. Sometimes that would happen on a first date (let's not forget that dating in the 70's-80's was very different than it is today) Sometimes not for a few months into the 'relationship'. But once I learned they were untrustworthy, I was GONE.

So no, I didn't 'settle' back then, and I WON'T settle, PERIOD.

Now, does it mean that I never met or dated any 'good' men? Of COURSE I did! But just because a man is a 'good' man doesn't mean he's the RIGHT man. Maybe a woman dates a man a few times. Yes, he's employed. Nice looking. Pleasant. Polite. But then the woman finds out that he wants 6 kids, whereas, she only wants two. That difference just might be a deal-breaker...for BOTH of them.

 

[Wrangler]

Is the body of Christ divided?

Just because there are 35,000 divisions and still growing …doesn’t make it true.

LOL. One division would make it true that the Body of Christ is divided. How many divisions does anything have to have before one objectively determines it is divided?

 

[MA2444]

Now, does it mean that I never met or dated any 'good' men? Of COURSE I did! But just because a man is a 'good' man doesn't mean he's the RIGHT man. Maybe a woman dates a man a few times. Yes, he's employed. Nice looking. Pleasant. Polite. But then the woman finds out that he wants 6 kids, whereas, she only wants two. That difference just might be a deal-breaker...for BOTH of them.

Are you using that as an example or is that what happened to you? He wated 6 you wanted 2?
Because I asked you before why you friend zoned the good men and only went with the chads? You didnt answer that but that's ok cuz I know how it works.

 

[Mink57]

If you see God as a tyrant in the OT then you do not know the same God I do.

I don't see God as a tyrant. Not at all.

Yes, so you need to grow up and understand that there are consequences in life for poor decision making. You are paying for your poor decisions now and hate it.

Nope. Not paying for anything. I am HAPPY where I am in life.

Not at all. I believe that God instructed women to not be 304's and expect no consequences for it. Pretty simple.

I don't know what "304's" are. Never heard that term before.

If you see contradictions then you need to read it a third time cover to cover.

I DO see 'contradictions'. But I also see where the supposed 'contradictions' aren't contradictions at all. Only a few places in the bible where the contradictions haven't made any sense.

What kind of dumbo circular logic is that? If you wouldnt ever obey a man then (no wonder your relationships never worked!) you would not obey Christ either.

Says WHO? You? A MAN? Sorry, but unless the man I'm with obeys GOD, I don't have to obey HIM.

So you had no control is what your trying to say? Why werent you like that to your men?
Oh the emotional thrill thing again. The excitement of doing something forbidden. Ok Eve, I can see that.

Not even close. Again, it's supposed to be a mutual submission to ONE ANOTHER.

Oh, go make me a sandwich.

The 'feminist' in me would tell you to go make your own >*&)) sandwich!! Your arms aren't broken....
The 'wife' in me would have probably already made you a sandwich as we were having this *ahem* discussion.

God has told me I was wrong! I would blame women and blame God?

If that's true then show me where I blamed any of the failure of my marriage on my ex wife? Show me where I have blamed God for anything? I sure have talked a lot about my ex wife so I must have put her down somewhere, right?

Silly girl.

Then go make me a sandwich, geez!

You DID say that you somehow 'failed' because you spoiled your ex-wife. And your ex-wife pretty much 'ate up' your compliments, etc. Maybe YOU don't put any blame on her, but I SURE DO. I may be a feminist in some regards, but that doesn't mean that I believe in ALL of feminism...and that husbands should CONSTANTLY cater to their wives EVERY whim...or that they should be SHOWERED with compliments, gifts, and dang near WORSHIPPED. In all honesty, if you REALLY treated your ex the way you said you did, that would have made ME terribly, terribly uncomfortable.

I don't want someone to put me on a pedestal. But by the same token, I'm not about to 'worship' him, either.

You want a sandwich? Ok. But would ever consider making ME a sandwich?

 

[Mink57]

Are you using that as an example or is that what happened to you? He wated 6 you wanted 2?
Because I asked you before why you friend zoned the good men and only went with the chads? You didnt answer that but that's ok cuz I know how it works.

It's both.

Oh, pleez...I never dated 'Chads'. My late husband was 5'7" and I'm 5'5". Plus, he was about 225 lbs. Was HE a "Chad"? Neither did he make a 6-digit income.

I didn't find out about all the hookers and prostitutes he had been with until AFTER we were married.

As I explained, while I dated a few 'good men', our goals simply weren't aligned.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Who said that it does? To clarify, I am not saying the Bible is promoting subjectivism. I'm saying you are acting on fallacious reasoning known as appeal to subjectivism. The Bible is the ultimate example of absolute truth.

I'll give you a great example of Appeal to Subjectivism that does not involve you. A traumatic day for the country was when JFK Jr.'s plane crashed in the ocean. In the morning, I was listening to a music station. In the afternoon, I listed to Rush Limbaugh.

A woman called the music station to talk about her belief/opinion that he was still alive. The reason she gave is the hope he gives to the country, for he represents all that is good in the upcoming generation and what he and his generation might achieve is too great a loss for him to be lost. I assure you that she was very sincere. Her words were heart felt. And they were committing the fallacy of Appeal to Subjectivism.

During the Rush Limbaugh show a retired Air Force Colonel called. He explained to the audience that the plane or parts of the plane were recovered and the damage analyzed. The fuselage had signficant damage, which he said is the sturdiest part of the air craft. In order for the fuselage to be as damaged as it was means the plane was going at X speed. At that rate of speed, when the plane hit the water, the seat belts would not act as restraints but scissors. You will not find survivors but body parts. This is objective analysis.

I much preferred the woman's appeal. But I knew the retired Air Force Colonel had identified a truth, painful to me and I did not want it to be true but knew it was true. I mourn his death but not the truth.

If I understand you correctly an appeal to subjectivism would be when a doctor tells you that you’re going to die. He gives you an objective reason showing you the X-rays. he shows you the blood reports. He shows you the chance of survival of what wrong with you and the estimated time you have. But then you ignore the objective and pray earnestly to God for Him to heal you, believing God will. You genuinely believe and hope you are right. Is this an appeal to subjectivism?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

LOL. One division would make it true that the Body of Christ is divided. How many divisions does anything have to have before one objectively determines it is divided?

A house divided will not stand. Is this a lie?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I don't see God as a tyrant. Not at all.

I also don’t see God as a tyrant. Not at all.

 

[Wrangler]

Wow that's some chip you have on your shoulder there. So what's behind those questions?
Did God make men defective? Does God hate women so he dealt them a bad hand?

What led you to that conclusion? An ephiniy? A series of poor choices on your part? What?

What makes you think women should have no consequences for being stupid?

She has a HUGE ego and so cannot take the plank out of her own eye to clearly see the specks of dust in men's eye.

 

[Mink57]

I also don’t see God as a tyrant. Not at all.

Neither do I. But I also understand that SOME men who have had bad relationships with their own fathers see God as a tyrant.

And unfortunately, THEY become tyrants themselves.

 

[Mink57]

She has a HUGE ego and so cannot take the plank out of her own eye to clearly see the specks of dust in men's eye.

Huge ego? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!

Sweetie, I'M not the one who said that women are 'superior' to men! And yet, YOU have said that MEN are superior to women.

WHO has the EGO???????

FIND me a bible verse that says explicitly that men are superior to women. Go ahead...I'll wait...

With the Jeopardy theme song playing and everything.

 

[Wrangler]

A house divided will not stand. Is this a lie?

Wow! You keep moving the goal posts in an attempt to be right. Fact. The body of Christ is divided.

Fact 2. Revelation tells us there will be a great falling away of the church, i.e., divided.

These 2 facts are not in contradiction. It is not a lie, the divided house will not stand.

 

[Grailhunter]

So what's so hard for the feminists to understand that on earth, the man rules over her. I agree that women got the short end of the stick in life. Bearing children must be terrible.

But man didnt make the rules of how mankind has it's rank set up, so the feminists should just accelt life and the station that they have in earthly life, and go with the flow instead of starting wars with the men, lol. It's not Man's rules, it is the Word of God.

Well…..just LOL. Did Adam and Eve ever have a chance? How long had Eve been alive before she faced off against the crafty speaking serpent or Satan as some believe…..did she have a chance? What was such a creature doing in "Eden" as most call it? Should God have allowed such an encounter? Did God think that humans would be perfect? Christ told us to be perfect like His Father....will only perfect Christians be saved?

What was the knowledge of good and evil? And why was it a secret? Shouldn’t God have taught them the knowledge of good and evil? Why kick them out to learn on their own?

But good thing all the blame fell on Eve, so men could blame them for everything and produce a society where women are second class. It is a wonder that it is not a religious belief for Jews and Christians to hate their mothers.

Either way if you read the story it appears that it was Adam that got them kicked out with two strikes….Adam being the senior person present with the most experience did eat of the "apple"----as some call it….But it was Adam that got them kicked out by blaming God for giving him a fault mate.

How many Christian men use the interpretation of the story to be abusive to their wives. Get me a beer wench and make it snappy!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Wow! You keep moving the goal posts in an attempt to be right. Fact. The body of Christ is divided.

Fact 2. Revelation tells us there will be a great falling away of the church, i.e., divided.

These 2 facts are not in contradiction. It is not a lie, the divided house will not stand.

Okay. I get it. Your answer to Paul when he asked if Christ is divided would be yes.

 

[Wrangler]

If I understand you correctly an appeal to subjectivism would be when a doctor tells you that you’re going to die. He gives you an objective reason showing you the X-rays. he shows you the blood reports. He shows you the chance of survival of what wrong with you and the estimated time you have. But then you ignore the objective and pray earnestly to God for Him to heal you, believing God will. You genuinely believe and hope you are right. Is this an appeal to subjectivism?

Not quite. In my example, I did not want the objective truth, the objective opinion but I recognized it and accepted it. Same with your example.

In your example an Appeal to Subjectivism would be something like, "You can't die. You're too pretty and young." Most people can relate to the feeling of the subject. No one likes to see young people die. Just because something is what we want or don't want, does not make it true.

Understanding logical fallacies (by name) is one of the best things I got out of my undergraduate education. The best example of another fallacy I remember from that time is called False Alternative. The example used was when VP Al Gore defended the Clinton Administration's decision to intercept Haitian refugees and turn them back. (Now contrast that to the open border policy. Because Haitians don't tend to vote Democrat, they do not want more of them here.)

Gore said, "It is cheaper to intercept them than have them come here and be on welfare." While this is true, it is not logical because of the conjunction "and." This makes it seem like there are only 2 choices. We could not spend the resources to intercept them AND not allow them to go on welfare.

So, Appeal to Subjectivism is when one refers to themselves in some manner (explicitly or implicitly) as the basis to forming their opinion.

1. Candidate A looks the best (to me). So, I'll vote for Candidate A, who is the best candidate.
2. My experience with people from denomination X was all bad and everyone I met from denomination Y were wonderful. Therefore, denomination X is bad and denomination Y is good.
3. That person looks like someone I had a bad experience with. Therefore, that person is bad.

This last one reminds me of a powerful and personal story, which I seldom share. In college, I had a job as an X-ray transporter. One day I had to transport a baby who had a broken arm. Protocol was to leave the patient in the hallway for the Technician to get the patient in the order I brought them down. The baby was fusing and a compassionate Tech picked her up. The baby stopped fussing.

The Tech wanted to show everyone the poor baby to everyone in the X-ray office, where I too was standing waiting to bring patients back. I happened to be in the corner, as far from the door as possible. The baby saw me and became hysterical, clawing at the Tech as if desperately trying to get even further away from me.

Everyone knew 2 things. The baby's broken arm was caused by abuse. The abuser looked like me. No one can expect a baby to be logical and no one accused me of abusing the baby. The baby committed an Appeal to Subjectivism. (See example 3 above, again). 35 years later, the memory still haunts me.