The curious case of John 5:4

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,936
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
do you mean wrong information in our own opinion,from others .different interpretation of scripture?
We see a clear example in the back and forth on this thread.

@Johann has declared that that Bible is inspired by God.
So, I asked, "Every word?" He responded, "Yes, every word." (something to that effect) Okay.

But what is this topic about? A missing verse in modern Bible translations. Say what?
This is an "Every word?" question. The 1611 AD version of the KJV included that verse.
But modern translations leave that verse out. How come?
Should that "Every word?" verse be there, or not?

To be clear, the 1611 AD KJV was a monumental accomplishment for its time.
All done by hand, no typewriters and no computers. Extraordinary for its time.

Then something extraordinary happened.
The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in 1947. These manuscript copies were much
older and more original than the manuscript copies used for the KJV of the Bible.

With the addition of the Dead Sea Scroll manuscript copies, it became obvious to
modern Bible translators that John 5:4 should NOT be in the Bible.
So they removed it and added a footnote explanation for the omission.

But John 5:4 remains in the KJV Bible. Even though, arguably, it should not be there.

When confronted with the facts @Johann asked whether the inclusion was a "salvific issue". (a salvation issue)

Johann said:
You have to acknowledge that this isn't a salvific issue-right?


So, having to admit that this was an "Every word?" issue, the best he could do was claim that ultimately, it didn't matter.
After all, it's not a SALVATION issue.

But will he own the "Every word?" issue? No way. - LOL

[
 
Last edited:
J

Johann

Guest
@Johann has declared that that Bible is inspired by God.
So, I asked, "Every word?" He responded, "Yes, every word." (something to that effect) Okay.
I’d appreciate it if you could stop tagging me, @St. SteVen-or, if needed, please request to post in the Apologetics Forum.

Is every word inspired by God?

Scripture teaches that every word is God-breathed: 2 Timothy 3:16 says, “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” This asserts that the original manuscripts were fully inspired.
Divine precision down to words and letters: Jesus emphasizes this in Matthew 5:18: "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." The words of Scripture are intentional and meant to endure, but this inspiration applies primarily to the original texts.

2. What about the missing verse, John 5:4?

The verse in question appears in the KJV but is missing from many modern translations because of textual evidence. For example, Jeremiah 8:8 warns of the possibility of textual corruption due to scribal error: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood."

Textual scholarship has shown that John 5:4 does not appear in the earliest manuscripts, such as Codex Sinaiticus or Codex Vaticanus.

Proverbs 30:5-6 warns against adding to God’s words: "Every word of God is pure... Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar."

3. How did the 1611 KJV include this verse?

The 1611 KJV relied on the Textus Receptus, which was based on a limited number of later Greek manuscripts, where John 5:4 was included. As 1 Thessalonians 5:21 states, “Test all things; hold fast what is good,” which encourages careful testing of sources, particularly for Scripture’s accuracy.

The extraordinary discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and older Greek manuscripts after the KJV’s publication provided more ancient textual witnesses that revealed earlier, more accurate readings of the New Testament text.

4. Does this challenge "every word" inspiration?

Psalm 119:89 says, "Forever, O LORD, Your word is settled in heaven." This emphasizes the permanence of God’s word in its divine, original form. While the original manuscripts are inspired, not all later copies have been identical due to textual variations.

Recognizing this, many modern translations offer footnotes for transparency, allowing believers to "test the spirits" (1 John 4:1) and discern God’s word as closely as possible to its original form.

5. Is this omission a salvation issue?

Johann’s question addresses the heart of the matter-

Does John 5:4 affect core doctrine or salvation? In this case, the verse does not introduce any doctrinal inconsistencies. In fact, Jesus addresses salvation directly in John 5, clarifying that healing and eternal life come through belief in Him (John 5:24) rather than through ritual at the pool.

2 Peter 1:3 assures us, “His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life,” which indicates that the core elements for salvation and godly living remain intact regardless of minor textual variances.

6. Does this negate the “every word” issue?


Although variations like John 5:4 might seem to question the "every word" principle, Isaiah 40:8 promises, “The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God stands forever.”

This confirms that God’s word is preserved through the faithful transmission of its essential truths.

Variants challenge us to distinguish between God’s divinely preserved word and human copying errors over time, but they do not undermine the inspired message itself.

Deuteronomy 4:2 urges us not to add or take away from God’s word, so it’s our responsibility to pursue the most accurate and reverent rendering of Scripture.

In conclusion, the “every word” question refers to the accuracy of God’s original word as divinely inspired. Scripture confirms God’s careful preservation of His message while also acknowledging the fallibility of human transmission.

Though minor textual differences may arise, they do not compromise core doctrines or salvation truths. Psalm 12:6-7 reassures us, “The words of the Lord are pure words... You shall keep them, O Lord, You shall preserve them from this generation forever.” This preservation ensures that, despite textual variations, God’s truth endures unchanged.

Don't tag me again @St. SteVen since your doctrine of universalism is nowhere to be found in the Holy Writ/D'varim.


Σπούδασον σεαυτὸν δόκιμον παραστῆσαι τῷ Θεῷ
Spoudason seauton dokimon parastēsai tō Theō



1. Σπούδασον (Spoudason) — Verb: "Be diligent" or "make every effort"
Root: Σπουδάζω (spoudazō), meaning “to be diligent, to exert oneself earnestly, to make haste.”

Form: Aorist active imperative, second person singular. This form gives the verb a sense of urgency and command, as Paul directs Timothy to act immediately and with purpose.

Nuance: The translation “study” in the KJV reflects a commitment to diligent effort, not limited to academic study but encompassing a full-hearted application to the task of preparation and faithfulness in service.

2. σεαυτόν (seauton) — Reflexive Pronoun: "yourself"
Form: Singular, accusative, masculine (matching Timothy, the recipient).
Function: Direct object, pointing to Timothy’s responsibility in this self-directed diligence. The reflexive aspect emphasizes self-initiative; it is Timothy’s duty to diligently apply himself.

3. δόκιμον (dokimon) — Adjective: "approved" or "tested"
Root: δόκιμος (dokimos), meaning “tested, proven, approved.”
Form: Singular, accusative masculine, matching seauton (yourself).
Connotation: Used of metals purified by fire, this term indicates something that has been tested and proven trustworthy. Paul urges Timothy to be someone who, through diligence and integrity, is found trustworthy and reliable before God.

4. παραστῆσαι (parastēsai) — Verb: "to present"
Root: παρίστημι (paristēmi), meaning “to stand by, present, or show.”
Form: Aorist active infinitive, which here gives the purpose of Timothy’s diligence: “to present” himself approved.
Syntax: The infinitive functions as a complementary infinitive to the verb spoudason, expressing the goal of Timothy’s diligent effort—to present himself as a faithful worker.

5. τῷ Θεῷ (tō Theō) — Dative Noun Phrase: "to God"
Root: Θεός (Theos), meaning “God.”
Form: Dative masculine singular, indicating the indirect object.

Meaning: The dative form shows that God is the one before whom Timothy seeks approval, not human opinion. Paul is emphasizing that Timothy’s goal is to seek divine approval, aligning himself with God’s standards rather than human standards.

2Ti 2:15 Make every effort Σπούδασον to present παραστῆσαι yourself σεαυτὸν approved δόκιμον - τῷ to God, Θεῷ, [an] unashamed ἀνεπαίσχυντον, workman ἐργάτην who accurately handles ὀρθοτομοῦντα the τὸν word λόγον - τῆς of truth. ἀληθείας.
2Ti 2:16 But δὲ avoid περιΐστασο· - Τὰς irreverent βεβήλους [and] empty chatter, κενοφωνίας [which] γὰρ will [only] lead προκόψουσιν to ἐπὶ more πλεῖον ungodliness, ἀσεβείας,

2Ti 2:15 σπουδασον σεαυτον δοκιμον παραστησαι τω θεω εργατην ανεπαισχυντον ορθοτομουντα τον λογον της αληθειας
2Ti 2:16 τας δε βεβηλους κενοφωνιας περιιστασο επι πλειον γαρ προκοψουσιν ασεβειας


Handling aright (orthotomounta). Present active participle of orthotomeō, late and rare compound (orthotomos), cutting straight, orthos and temnō), here only in N.T. It occurs in Pro_3:6; Pro_11:5 for making straight paths (hodous) with which compare Heb_12:13 and “the Way” in Act_9:2.

Theodoret explains it to mean ploughing a straight furrow. Parry argues that the metaphor is the stone mason cutting the stones straight since temnō and orthos are so used.

Since Paul was a tent-maker and knew how to cut straight the rough camel-hair cloth, why not let that be the metaphor? Certainly plenty of exegesis is crooked enough (crazy-quilt patterns) to call for careful cutting to set it straight.
Rightly handling the word of truth. -- The main emphasis is on "rightly dividing the word of truth." It means to cut something straight (correctly), to hold a straight course faithfully, (It suggests a plowman making a straight furrow in the soil.)

As Timothy teaches the Scriptures, he is to guide the word of truth along a straight path and not turn aside into the devious paths of deceiving interpretations.

The old expositors understood this as a reference to making the proper division between the law and the gospel, between the OT and the NT.

2Ti_2:16 "But avoid worldly and empty chatter" This is a present middle imperative. This is a major theme in the Pastoral Letters (cf. 1Ti_6:20; Tit_3:9).
"it will lead" Believers are to cut a straight path to righteousness and truth (cf. 2Ti_2:15) but the false teachers and their followers are making a path to ungodliness and self-deception (cf. 2Ti_3:9; 2Ti_3:15).
2Ti_2:17



J.
 

Ritajanice

Born-Again
Mar 9, 2023
13,072
7,430
113
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Short commentary .

Here in verse 4, John simply refers to "faith" as our victory. The faith of the believer is the victory that overcomes. Every believer is an overcomer and is victorious because they have eternal life in Christ (John 3:16) and abundant life now (John 10:10).
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
19,470
13,534
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Maybe get back on track with this one now as questions have been answered xx

The track with this one is how one would go about helping a Christian who began questioning the reliability of the Bible after being confronted by a Muslim on John 5:4.

What would you do if one day you found yourself in the situation of needing to help such a person?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lambano and Johann
J

Johann

Guest
The track with this one is how one would go about helping a Christian who began questioning the reliability of the Bible after being confronted by a Muslim on John 5:4.

Not to those who rely on circular reasoning and respond with endless questions, @Matthias.

J.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Matthias

Rita

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Dec 20, 2020
4,572
7,983
113
66
South
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
The track with this one is how one would go about helping a Christian who began questioning the reliability of the Bible after being confronted by a Muslim on John 5:4.

What would you do if one day you found yourself in the situation of needing to help such a person?
I honestly don’t know, I can’t prove anything to anyone else and I believe by faith that the word is inspired.As to the whole issue of those who chose to include or not include things, I simply don’t know enough.
Most of my family are non believers - so I come up against a lot of questions, all I can relay is what I believe - and pray that it will plant seeds xx
 
J

Johann

Guest
I honestly don’t know, I can’t prove anything to anyone else and I believe by faith that the word is inspired.As to the whole issue of those who chose to include or not include things, I simply don’t know enough.
Most of my family are non believers - so I come up against a lot of questions, all I can relay is what I believe - and pray that it will plant seeds xx
Don't worry, Jesus answered almost no questions @Rita.


Jesus directly answered very few questions during His ministry, which is a striking feature of His teaching style. Out of the many questions He received, He responded directly to only about three or four. Instead, He often replied with questions, parables, or statements that redirected the conversation, drawing the listener into deeper reflection.

Here are examples where Jesus answered questions directly:

The Greatest Commandment

Question: “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
Answer: Jesus answered clearly in Matthew 22:37-40: “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”
Note: Here, Jesus directly addressed the question, summarizing the law with the two greatest commandments.
How to Inherit Eternal Life (Luke’s Account)

Question: “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
Answer: In Luke 18:18-22, Jesus answers by listing commandments and eventually telling the rich young ruler to sell all he has and follow Him. Although His response is layered, it is a direct answer to what the man must do.
Authority of Paying Taxes to Caesar

Question: “Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?”
Answer: Jesus responds directly in Matthew 22:21: “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” Here, His response clarifies both earthly and spiritual obligations.
When Will These Things Be?

Question: The disciples ask about the destruction of the temple and the signs of the end times.
Answer: Jesus answers in Matthew 24 (the Olivet Discourse), describing events leading up to His return, although He acknowledges that the exact timing is known only to the Father (Matthew 24:36). While complex, this discourse is a direct response to the disciples’ question.


J.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rita

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
18,518
9,892
113
59
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That saw cuts both ways.

I think that what @Lambano and myself and others are saying is that we have been offered a bottle of what is labeled as refreshing cold Coca Cola.

But in our thirst for the truth we pulled that bottle from the refrigerator expecting a cool refreshing drink, when we poured a glass, and what we got was a mouth full of warm vinegar, which we promptly spit out. (as we should have)

Now what? How do we navigate the Christian faith from here? The leadership at the top has lied to us.
And if we dare to ask questions we will marginalized. Our friend @Johann is making it his mission to shut people like me down.
And to shame fine folks like @Lambano who would appear to align themselves against the problem.

[
what does this have to do about what bible version a person uses.

can that bible lead a person to christ
can that bible lead a person to sanctification.
can that bible do what Paul claimed it could do in that it is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
can that bible make a man complete and thoroughly equipped for every good work?

then who cares? Why would it matter? Why would you call it vinegar?

Are they all the same? No. Diet Coke and Coke Zero are not the same either, but they are both coke..
 

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
18,518
9,892
113
59
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If I put him on IGNORE, wouldn't that prove my point?
And would he not continue in the same way but out of my sight?

Putting my head in the sand will not change what he is doing.

How can you disagree with my statement, as if I am the problem?

[
so you have not answered me in awhile now.. am I continuing to discuss with you out of your site?
 

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
18,518
9,892
113
59
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But what is this topic about? A missing verse in modern Bible translations. Say what?
This is an "Every word?" question. The 1611 AD version of the KJV included that verse.
But modern translations leave that verse out. How come?
Should that "Every word?" verse be there, or not?

To be clear, the 1611 AD KJV was a monumental accomplishment for its time.
All done by hand, no typewriters and no computers. Extraordinary for its time.

Then something extraordinary happened.
The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in 1947. These manuscript copies were much
older and more original than the manuscript copies used for the KJV of the Bible.

With the addition of the Dead Sea Scroll manuscript copies, it became obvious to
modern Bible translators that John 5:4 should NOT be in the Bible.
So they removed it and added a footnote explanation for the omission.

But John 5:4 remains in the KJV Bible. Even though, arguably, it should not be there.
Please note the ASV does not have John 5: 4 either. It was created in 1901 before the Dead Sea scrolls were found..

so while I agree, they are a wonderful reason for why the verse should be doubted as scripture and at the lease possibly removed, or at lease notes in italics. Older bibles did not have it their either, even before the Dead Sea scrolls came
 
Last edited:

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
18,518
9,892
113
59
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The track with this one is how one would go about helping a Christian who began questioning the reliability of the Bible after being confronted by a Muslim on John 5:4.

What would you do if one day you found yourself in the situation of needing to help such a person?
Again,

all english bibles are translation of copies of the origional manuscripts. As with all things written by men,
1. different interpretations may have personal bias added to their translations (this is realy seen in the NIV)
2. different translations were taken from different greek texts which differ in and of themselves,
3. English language in itself is not as deep or structured as the greek, so you will see flaws in interpretation due to the barrier of language (perfect example is the english word love used to translate 4 greek words. All with different meanings)
3. English language has changed, Word in 1611 for example are no longer used today, or have changed meaning. So this can cause confusion or even misunderstanding of what was written trying to use todays modern language to understand an old outdated language
4. Two people can read the same passage and come up with totally different meanings. Does this mean the text is flawed. Or that people are flawed?

this would be a good start..
 

Lambano

Well-Known Member
Jul 13, 2021
8,529
11,648
113
Island of Misfit Toys
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Now what? How do we navigate the Christian faith from here?
And that is the problem Matthias was facing. His student comes from a fundamentalist background and has been confronted for the first time with the reality that the Bible we have is not infallible like he was told and like he had believed all his Christian life. Now that his worldview has been shattered, you have to help him pick up the pieces.

The Bible testifies to Jesus Christ, who He is and what He's done. How would you help the student trust the Bible again? How would you help the student continue to follow Jesus when our star witness to Christ has been shown to be fallible?

How to have faith when certainty is no longer viable.

This is why I tagged you; you've been through this. I need your help here.
 
Last edited:

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
14,082
7,310
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
That is such a great question.

What do you do after the "Hey, wait a minute..." moment when we realize that we have been handed a false religion.
Experimentally we know that there is a real "religion" in there somewhere. So, we don't want to toss it in the trash and walk away.
Though that has been the reaction of many. And rightfully so, I'm afraid.

Like ordering a burrito and then realizing they put stuff in the tortilla that you asked to NOT be there.
Either you return it and ask that they make what you ordered, or you pick through the mess and pull out the stuff you didn't want.

But in the case of our religious leaders, the poor soul behind the counter at the burrito shop would have to inform us that what they gave us was the religious burrito approved by leadership. They will NOT make it the way we requested.

[
But I don't think we've been handed a false religion!
What makes it be false??

I'd say that some ASPECTS of what is written down is not literal...
I'd say that trying to make the bible - the OT in this case - is a hard pill to swallow.
I mentioned the age of the earth in a previous post...
or the 6 days of creation.

BUT
God is literal.
Jesus is literal.
What God expects from us is literal.

I think that THESE are what we are supposed to be basing our faith on.

I'll say this: It's a good thing that our doctrinal beliefs are NOT what is going to save us!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lambano

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
14,082
7,310
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
The track with this one is how one would go about helping a Christian who began questioning the reliability of the Bible after being confronted by a Muslim on John 5:4.

What would you do if one day you found yourself in the situation of needing to help such a person?
Yeah.
Back to topic.
Although all the talk has been about the topic,,,,IMHO.

Helping someone that has been bombed with the fact that the bible has error in it...
Or, at least, it's not 100% accurate. Or, is not literal in every sense.

Here would be my question then...which I did have a thread on this some years ago and NO ONE gave a good answer.

WHAT do we base our faith on?

We have a good group here....Let me wait for a few answers and then I'll give my understanding of why my faith is not only a reasonable faith,,,but is most probably a true faith.

(may have to leave for a while).

@Lambano @Eternally Grateful @Johann @Matthias @St. SteVen

(sure I forgot some, sorry).
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Matthias

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
14,082
7,310
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
My wife was an elementary school teacher. Right now she'd say, "All right, children; stay on task".
Is this for me?
I'm trying to state what the OP is supposed to be telling the "fallen" believer.
Must not be doing a good job of it.
:(