The curious case of John 5:4

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GodsGrace

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95% of people who are confused regarding, and now deceived regarding...

"losing salvation"
"what does it mean to be born again"
"eternal security"
"Catholicism"
"mormonism"
"JW"
"Calvinism"

and so many more 'Isms".. are led there by : COMMENTARIES.

100%, nearly, of the arguments found on Forums, exist because people do not study a bible, and they are simply posting "what some man said", from a commentary or from the writings of some deceived "church father".


Thats a fact, all of it.
Agreed Behold.
Why read a commentary?
It's DIFFERENT opinions by DIFFERENT persons.

I like to read on my own...if I have a problem, I use different verses and, on rare occasion,
will use a commentary to clarify something or other...
but not for doctrine.

I believe the NT is very clear on doctrine.

(even though you and I don't agree on a couple of topics)....
 
J

Johann

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Sounds as if you don't actually understand what happened.

[
It sounds like you know something we don’t-was there something about how the Bible came into existence that really surprised/shocked you? Care to share more about it?

J.
 

St. SteVen

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Eternally Grateful

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I can't give examples - not a scholar - however, we do know for sure that the newer bibles are more correct in translation due to all the new information we've found....older manuscripts which are closer to the time of the writers, Dead Sea Scrolls, etc.

Just would like to say that I think it's pretty incredible how close the scripture we have is to the DSS....
confirming that the main idea/concept/beliefs of the bible are correct.

Any difference would be a small nuance and nothing that would change the actual meaning of the bible....
agree whole heartedly.. I still prefer the new king james version (a perversion to the KJVO crowed). only because I have used it all my life and am used to it.. But with the exception of a few.. Any bible can give us the word
 
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St. SteVen

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--- PARODY TIME ---

KJO reader: This is what the Word of God says.
NIV reader: Let's compare the NIV translation.
KJO reader: WHAT! ??? That's a terrible translation!
NIV reader: Are you saying it isn't the "Word of God"?
KJO reader: The NIV left verses out of the Bible!
NIV reader: No, the NIV kept the same verse numbering system
but left out verses that didn't belong there in the first place.
KJO reader: THEY REMOVED VERSES FROM THE BIBLE !!!!
NIV reader: No, that's not what happened.
KJO reader: Yes it is what HAPPENED !!!
NIV reader: Show me one.
KJO reader: Here you go.
NIV reader: My footnote accounts for that.
KJO reader: Accounts for verses removed from the Bible? ???
NIV reader: The footnote says: It does not appear in any New Testament
manuscript prior to the end of the 6th century.
KJO reader: It's NOT the Word of God !!!!
NIV reader: Seriously?


Interesting that the Bible is "the Word of God", unless someone quotes a translation you disagree with.

Do you do that?

[
 
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GodsGrace

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GodsGrace said:
I think it's great that we have this new information.
My copy of the KJV contains John 5:4 with no notification.

Agree.

St. SteVen said:
Sounds as if you don't actually understand what happened.

Do you understand why the KJV has no notification for John 5:4?

[
You could tell me why....

I believe it's because the words were added by someone - maybe a scribe for whatever reason....
and then it gets copied into the actual body.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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This came up on another topic. Seemed to be worth its own topic.


Understanding the difference between the SOURCE and a RESOURCE.
God should be our SOURCE. Everything else is a RESOURCE. (including the Bible)


Source:
- God


Resources:
- The Bible
- Commentaries
- Preachers/teachers
- Other believers
- Unbelievers (listen)


[
but how do you know when you hear from God? How can you test what you hear?
 
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GodsGrace

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but how do you know when you hear from God? How can you test what you hear?
Right.
I posted to @St. SteVen that I agreed with him regarding the source and the resource.
However, yes,,, it would need to be clarified a little.

THE SOURCE is GOD
As I stated in my posts 40 and 67.

BUT
We also need a RESOURCE to help us to know that God....
this, of course, would be the bible....the story of God and His people.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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@St. SteVen

Yes.
Sad.
I think the KJV is out-dated....
(but poetically beautiful.)
I just went through the book of John in my mend bible study, As I was putting my discussion together for John 5, I came across that verse, In studying, May do not believe God actually sent an angel to this body of water to heal people. that would be cruel of Godm why did he not just heal everyone. They actually think it was something else going on. That there was this belief an angel come. but that it was not true.

This plus the fact in all of the oldest manuscripts. it is not there. Leads people to believe it was added at a later date.

either way, It is not salvic. so if it is there or not does not really matter..
 
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Lambano

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Somebody said:
100%, nearly, of the arguments found on Forums, exist because people do not study a bible, and they are simply posting "what some man said", from a commentary or from the writings of some deceived "church father".
Anybody besides me appreciate the irony of someone who posts reams of opinions about what he thinks the Bible says telling people not to listen to what others think the Bible says?

wisdom-is-justified-by-her-children.jpg
 
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St. SteVen

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It sounds like you know something we don’t-was there something about how the Bible came into existence that really surprised/shocked you? Care to share more about it?
What the church had claimed and what the study of where the Bible came from stood in sharp contrast.

We don't have the originals.

"It shouldn’t come as a surprise, but we don’t have the original documents that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, and other New Testament writers wrote. They were originally written on either papyrus (essentially paper) or possibly parchment (animal skins) which have long since degraded with time and use. However, the originals were copied many, many times. Those copies were copied, which were copied, which were copied, which were

Well, you get the idea.

So what we have are copies of copies of the original (sometimes many generations of copying deep). Before Gutenberg invented the printing press in the early-mid 1400s, everything was copied by hand. Therefore, it should come as no surprise that the scribes who did the copying occasionally made some mistakes.

When two copies disagree with each other, you have a variant in the text between two documents: this is (unsurprisingly) called a “Textual Variant”.

Clever, right? " --- Source below ---

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus – Textual Criticism 101

[
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Right.
I posted to @St. SteVen that I agreed with him regarding the source and the resource.
However, yes,,, it would need to be clarified a little.

THE SOURCE is GOD
As I stated in my posts 40 and 67.

BUT
We also need a RESOURCE to help us to know that God....
this, of course, would be the bible....the story of God and His people.
100% spot on

Without the resource, we can not know if we hear the source.. Satan comes as an angel of light.. Look at all the different beliefs out there. yet they all say they heard this from God personally.. Really? God says different things to different people?
 
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J

Johann

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What the church had claimed and what the study of where the Bible came from stood in sharp contrast.

We don't have the originals.

"It shouldn’t come as a surprise, but we don’t have the original documents that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, and other New Testament writers wrote. They were originally written on either papyrus (essentially paper) or possibly parchment (animal skins) which have long since degraded with time and use. However, the originals were copied many, many times. Those copies were copied, which were copied, which were copied, which were

Well, you get the idea.

So what we have are copies of copies of the original (sometimes many generations of copying deep). Before Gutenberg invented the printing press in the early-mid 1400s, everything was copied by hand. Therefore, it should come as no surprise that the scribes who did the copying occasionally made some mistakes.


When two copies disagree with each other, you have a variant in the text between two documents: this is (unsurprisingly) called a “Textual Variant”.

Clever, right? " --- Source below ---

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus – Textual Criticism 101

[
Nothing wrong here-guess we are in agreement on this.

J.
 

St. SteVen

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You could tell me why....

I believe it's because the words were added by someone - maybe a scribe for whatever reason....
and then it gets copied into the actual body.
That is essentially correct.
But you need to read the footnote from the translation where the verses are missing to get the answer.
The KJV won't tell you why verse 4 is there.
The translators of the NIV and most other modern translations omit verse 4 because it is not supported by the best manuscript copies.

  1. John 5:4 Some manuscripts include here, wholly or in part, paralyzed—and they waited for the moving of the waters. 4 From time to time an angel of the Lord would come down and stir up the waters. The first one into the pool after each such disturbance would be cured of whatever disease they had.

[
 
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St. SteVen

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Nothing wrong here-guess we are in agreement on this.
Not when you make claims like this.
The Bible is Inspired by God
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NKJV):
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."
This verse affirms that Scripture has its source in God, meaning that its authority is not human but divine. The Bible's purpose is to guide, teach, correct, and train believers in righteousness.
Every word?

[
 
J

Johann

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That is essentially correct.
But you need to read the footnote from the translation where the verses is missing to get the answer.
The KJV won't tell you why verse 4 is there.
The translators of the NIV and most other modern translations omit verse 4 because it is not supported by the best manuscript copies.

  1. John 5:4 Some manuscripts include here, wholly or in part, paralyzed—and they waited for the moving of the waters. 4 From time to time an angel of the Lord would come down and stir up the waters. The first one into the pool after each such disturbance would be cured of whatever disease they had.

[
You have to acknowledge that this isn't a salvific issue-right?

J.
 
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