Why do you keep posting non-answers? I asked a simple question, are we going to go in circles for hours because you won't commit yourself plainly?
Answer, don't answer, whatever you like. But I'm not spending more time on this.
Much love!
The curious case of John 5:4
- Thread starter Matthias
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Answer, don't answer, whatever you like. But I'm not spending more time on this.
Much love!
I agree with the footnotes. You know what they say, apparently, but you’ve declined to say whether you agree with them or not.
Another way that I used to help the student was guide him to commentaries. Initially he was reluctant to make use of commentaries - for the same reason that he was reluctant to look at any footnotes.
Here is the commentary on John 5:4 from the NET. (I agree with the commentary.)
See note 9tc.
Here is the commentary on John 5:4 from the NET. (I agree with the commentary.)
John 5
“For indeed the day is coming, burning like a furnace, and all the arrogant evildoers will be chaff. The coming day will burn them up,” says the Lord who rules over all. “It will not leave even a root or branch. But for you who respect my name, the sun of vindication will rise with healing...
netbible.org
See note 9tc.
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
Did the Muslim point out the missing verse in the NIV? If that were the problem, I'd explain that the KJV has all the verses, but the critical text of modern bibles mostly leaves verses out because they are not in the codex Sinaiticus they translated it from, and that the KJV is translated from the majority text which has all the verses.
One of the sad things about the student is that when he read John 5 in the NIV he hadn’t even noticed, prior to his conversation with the Muslim, that there is no verse numbered 4. The verse numbering goes from verse 3 directly to verse 5. He had read it for years without ever noticing it.
The conversation took place sometime around 2004 or 2005. I recall that the student either read or showed the Muslim the passage in NIV (maybe he did both, I’m not sure anymore about that) and the Muslim replied that the Bible has been corrupted. Verse 4, which doesn’t exist in the NIV, was the lynchpin of the Muslim’s argument. That’s what brought on the student’s crisis about the reliability of the Bible.
That’s helpful but does it adequately address the Muslim assertion that the Bible has been corrupted?
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
I've told many people how "scholars" of the modern translations just skip a number. Dumb. Just put the verse there with footnote makes more sense. By the way, I will not own an NIV bible.
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
Atheists and Muslims know the KJV better than most Christians. Most Muslims in school are required to learn the Koran and the KJV bible for comparisons and are taught to combat Christians so as to make them doubt the KJV. Atheists are good at it too, since most atheists went to church.
I think most people probably do see the verse number skipping from 3 to 5 (in some translations, including NIV) and realize there is an issue with the verse. It is an odd thing for the translators to do.
I agree. I primarily use NASB95. It retains the verse numbering (no skipping from 3 to 5) and places the passage in brackets.
I own many Bibles, including NIV. I don’t have a high opinion of it but many people use it. I try to meet people where they are.
I mentioned a few minutes ago that I was raised KJVO. I have KJV Bibles in my personal library (including the very first Bible I was given as a child, in 1964; it holds great sentimental value) but I seldom use KJV. Many people do and, just as with those who use NIV, I try to meet them where they are.
All translations have strengths and weaknesses. I recommend reading and consulting (comparing and contrasting) many Bible translations.
ChristinaL
Active Member
Actually the footnotes are the last thing you want to read because they will always cast doubt on the reliability of scripture
Thanks for your input. That’s essentially what the student I’ve been speaking about said.
Besides (or in addition to) recommending that he not read the footnotes, what would you do to help him?
ChristinaL
Active Member
I would lead him to the KJV bible, explaining to him the corrupt history of modern translations
Are you KJVO? Would you consider leading him to English translations published prior to KJV?
ChristinaL
Active Member
Deborah_
Well-Known Member
I would argue (1) that the modern translations are more reliable because they are based on earlier manuscripts and (2) that actually nothing of importance has changed. What difference does John 5:4 actually make? It just adds some useful background information.
The Muslims maintain that the Bible (as a whole) has been corrupted in order to explain why it differs from the Qur'an.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Seems like a valid concern.
Most people seem to go to extremes on one side or the other. It seems like the student was at the extreme where one insists on the Bible being perfectly accurate and free of contradictions. Well, it's better than the other extreme of being hyper-critical of the Bible and disbelieving everything.
But it would really be better if we (the church) would stop telling each other that it's an all-or-nothing proposition. If Genesis has an error about how long someone lived, that really doesn't have anything to do with Jesus deity, for example.
As with most things, there's a middle ground that's better than either extreme.
I haven't a clue what "problem" needs solving here. I'm happy to assume -- because it is missing in Codex Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, Bezae and the Vulgate -- that John 5:4 was not the original, and was added later by some scribe. So what? And I'm happy to assume -- as other early sources suggest -- that John 5:4 was original. So what? Either way, there is nothing earth shaking at stake here.
The problem that needed to be solved was the student’s sudden doubt - brought on by a Muslim who knew, to some extent, more about the Bible than the student did - about the reliability of the Bible.
That’s one of the ways that I helped the student. (I haven’t seen him for almost twenty years. When last I did, he had regained his confidence in the scriptures. I presume that he still is.)
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You shoulda posted the verse for the lazy bunch!
LOL
There are a few problems in the Bible.
Was a census ever taken?
How many days and nights was Jesus in the tomb?
My reply would be simple...
We have to decide if God exists.
We have to decide who Jesus is.
Mistakes are man-made.
We're not trusting in a man.
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