Do non-Christians go to Hell after death?
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How is God within those who hate him?
Yes God loves All of humanity, but God has a special love for those who are his and that includes the gift of his spirit to live in them.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Can we examine this parable in context…..?
First of all, why mention Tartarus here? This word is used only once in all of Scripture, but it is a prison-like, abased condition into which God cast disobedient angels in Noah’s day. There are no human souls in “tartarus”.
A 2 Peter 2:4, the apostle writes: “God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tartarus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.”
It is the place that the disobedient angels of Noah’s day were confined to, so that they were restrained from materializing human bodies for themselves to indulge in the pleasures of the flesh…..something for which God did not design them.
Now, you are correct that “Gehenna” is equivalent to “the lake of fire”…..or “the second death”…but why is it called “the second death”? Because all those who experience the first death are granted a resurrection, but for those who undergo the second death…it is a permanent condition…..forever dead….never to live again.
Why can’t this parable be literal? Because when you read it from the Jewish perspective of Jesus’ audience, you understand why it cannot be literal.
In the previous chapters we see parable after parable….and as a lead in to this parable Jesus said….
”No servant can be a slave to two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to the one and despise the other. You cannot be slaves to God and to Riches.”
14 Now the Pharisees, who were money lovers, were listening to all these things, and they began to sneer at him. 15 So he said to them: “You are those who declare yourselves righteous before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is considered exalted by men is a disgusting thing in God’s sight.”
He thereafter begins this parable….
“There was a rich man who used to dress in purple and linen, enjoying himself day after day with magnificence. 20 But a beggar named Lazʹa·rus used to be put at his gate, covered with ulcers 21 and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man. Yes, even the dogs would come and lick his ulcers. 22 Now in the course of time, the beggar died and was carried off by the angels to Abraham’s bosom.
“Also, the rich man died and was buried. 23 And in hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and he saw Abraham from afar and Lazʹa·rus by his side. 24 So he called and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazʹa·rus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this blazing fire.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you had your fill of good things in your lifetime, but Lazʹa·rus for his part received bad things. Now, however, he is being comforted here, but you are in anguish. 26 And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that those who want to go over from here to you cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us.’“
The rich man was not said to be wicked…just rich and enjoying the benefits of his lifestyle.
The beggar was not said to be righteous, just very poor and in bad health. And he was placed at the rich man’s gate, desiring to be fed with the things dropping from the rich man’s table.
Was the rich man accustomed to eating his meals at his gate?
Both men “died”, resulting in a change that reversed the position of both of them…..the “bosom of Abraham” was a position of favor with God, which was gained by the beggar, but the rich man was in hades (translated from the Hebrew “Sheol“ or the grave)
Death in the Bible is not always literal, spiritual death is actually worse…the rich man was now in a position of anguish, being dead to God…..and the beggar, who pictured the “lost sheep of the house of Israel “ to whom Jesus was sent, was shown favor by God because of accepting Jesus as Messiah.
The rich man pictured the Pharisees whom Jesus had just mentioned were “money lovers”…
Now the rich man saw the beggar at Abraham’s side and asked that the beggar bring a drop of water to cool his tongue in the blazing fire in which he found himself. God’s anger is also said to be a blazing fire. (2 Kings 22:17)
Ask yourself……
Are “heaven and hell” within speaking distance and viewing distance from each other? If that is so then what kind of place must heaven be if the righteous can see the painful torture of the wicked…?
Why is there an unbreachable chasm between them? Because they have been cut off from God’s favor and committed the murder of God’s son…the very one sent to save them.
Would a drop of water from a man’s finger cool anyone in a blazing fire?
Read literally, the story is not only absurd, but from a Jewish point of view, unscriptural.
It cannot be anything but a parable…..and who said Jesus can’t use a man’s name to identify the beggar? Lazarus was a common name in Jesus’ day.…as was Yeshua.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Scriptural backing for that assertion?
One word answers are hardly a discussion….
Ritajanice
Born-Again
100 Bible Verses about
Eternal Torment
Matthew 10:28 ESV / 49 helpful votes
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Jude 1:7 ESV / 46 helpful votes
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Matthew 25:46 ESV / 45 helpful votes
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
John 3:16 ESV / 43 helpful votes
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 ESV / 42 helpful votes
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
Matthew 25:41 ESV / 42 helpful votes
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Revelation 20:10 ESV / 39 helpful votes
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Romans 6:23 ESV / 36 helpful votes
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Mark 9:48 ESV / 34 helpful votes
‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’
Revelation 21:8 ESV / 31 helpful votes
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
Luke 16:19-31 ESV / 30 helpful votes
“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. ...
Revelation 14:11 ESV / 27 helpful votes
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Eternal Torment
Matthew 10:28 ESV / 49 helpful votes
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Jude 1:7 ESV / 46 helpful votes
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Matthew 25:46 ESV / 45 helpful votes
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
John 3:16 ESV / 43 helpful votes
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 ESV / 42 helpful votes
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
Matthew 25:41 ESV / 42 helpful votes
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Revelation 20:10 ESV / 39 helpful votes
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Romans 6:23 ESV / 36 helpful votes
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Mark 9:48 ESV / 34 helpful votes
‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’
Revelation 21:8 ESV / 31 helpful votes
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
Luke 16:19-31 ESV / 30 helpful votes
“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. ...
Revelation 14:11 ESV / 27 helpful votes
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Do you have scriptural backing for that belief…?
What is a “soul” in the Bible? It is not a disembodied spirit….a “soul“ is a living, breathing creature…..animals and humans are called “souls” without distinction. (Eccl 3:19-20)
There is no “soul” that leaves the body at death….no scripture says so.
Where will I find the words “immortal soul” anywhere in the Bible? I’ll save you the search…..they do not exist in a single verse. Jesus never taught that we have immortal souls.
Souls in the Bible…die. (Ezek 18:4)
The grave is a place of silence….it is the grave that “contains” the dead…..it is also the place from which Jesus calls all the dead when he performs their resurrection in the future. (John 5:28-29)
How can Jesus call the dead from their tombs unless they are all still in them?
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
lets see what john once wrote .
He who hears us IS OF GOD and he who hears us not is NOT of GOD .
paul once said No man can call HIM LORD but BY THE SPIRIT
and that no man BY THE SPIRIT would call him accursed . YET EVERY OTHER RELIGION does so .
In fact HOW is GOD , THE TRUTH even in one if one calls GOD A LIAR .
He who believes not the testimony that GOD gave of HIS SON , calls GOD A LIAR .
WHO is a liar , but he who denies JESUS is the Christ , he is anti christ . said the same john .
Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
Bladerunner
Member
you need to read luke 16:19-31...It is NOT a parable but a story that directly from Jesus that tells us so much about Hell and Abram's Bosom. Yes, they are conscious and aware of their surroundings....One thing for sure, there will be no parties for if one is in Gehenna then they will be in the outter darkness.....Yes, it will be endless torture...One should fear GOD and His word....
Bladerunner
Member
Yes we can examine it. WHY? because God told us that Tartarus was as far under hell as it was away from Heaven..In otherwords, it is the bottomless pit and I believe that is spoke of several times in the Bible. Agree there are no human souls in Tartaru. Again it is how one reads determines how much one can get out of the Bible. A small child can read John's Gospel and come away with the thought that Jesus loves them...Yet, there are sooooo many levels of the same gospel that one could spend a lifetime studying it.
As your well aware, 2 Pet 2:4 states:"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;" (KJV) Notice that Tartarus was not spell out in the Bible itself but the Greek name for a particular Hell..."tartaroō"
Agree....
what about the sovereignty of GOD....what about His Promise to preserve His Word. "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psa 12:6-7 are these words literal to you...."All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" If not, they should be....for those words you have said are the perspective of Jesus' audience are GOD's WORDS.......
Again this is the only story that Jesus tells that has at least one Proper Noun in it. "Lazarus", The Rich man was at the very least an "elete " while Lazarus, a beggar was essentially homeless, unkept, unclean, bearing sores that only dogs would tend to, requiring only the table scrapes from this "Rich Man" . Notice the Beggar was "Carried" by angels to Abraham's Bosom...(formally known as Abram's Bosom. What is this Bosom?
while it says the Rich Man was buried, I suspect Lazarus' body was also buried
23 And in hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and he saw Abraham from afar and Lazʹa·rus by his side.
So He is not in soul sleep but His body was in the grave, His soul/spirit is in Hell.(Greek Hades) and His eyes are open..He lifted them up to see Abraham from a distance....Must have been a younger man for His eyes still good at long distance to see that Lazarus was beside Him....He is conscious obviously and know His surroundings. He also has the common senses (touch, speak, taste, hear, see) for He recognizes that He is in torment.
24 So he called and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazʹa·rus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this blazing fire.’
Again, he is conscious of his surroundings and he can speak as he called out to Abraham (he knows who Abraham is for he ask for Mercy for he knew Abraham was with GOD...The rich man showed his eleteness as he wanted a beggar to sooth His anguish. arrogant at the very least. Yet, his words tells us that the type of torment he is going through and it is fire and heat.
25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you had your fill of good things in your lifetime, but Lazʹa·rus for his part received bad things. Now, however, he is being comforted here, but you are in anguish.
Here the Rich Man can hear and knows what Abraham was saying to Him. He knows exactly why he is where he is at and why he is in torment.
26 And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that those who want to go over from here to you cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us.’
Now through God's word, we see that Hell was itself divided into two sections with a great chasm between them. There was no way to get from one to another except by words. This confirms that Jesus could and did preach to those in Hell and Abraham's Bosom His three days in the grave before His resurrection. Notice that the Body of Jesus was in the Grave while His spirit&soul was in Hell preaching.
agree
Yes, it is literal...for the richman and Lazarus are dead to mankind. Yet according to you it is not literal. An Allegory is probably the best for it lets the reader make up the story He wants to , not what God wants them to hear.
While the rich man indeed did bring to mind the Pharisees, they had nothing to do with this story. Neither did Jesus. This was a literal story where three people (excluding the angel) were speaking. Nothing Else.
No the Bible tells us the Lake of fire and brimstone will be the outer Darkness...within speaking distance no. Heaven we we in Rev 4 and 5....We see it as it will be....and the things that happen there will happen.....
No, because when Jesus leaves on the third day of His death, He removes all of those in Abraham's Bosom and takes them to Paradise...Recognize the name...Yes the thief on the cross...This is where the soul/spirits of those dead in Christ and awaiting the Rapture (part of the 1st resurrection). After that day there is only one section in Hell...In fact, we are told that Hell enlarges herself....I wonder why.
The allegory you speak of is not so...they in Abraham's Bosom are not cut off from GOD...Rem, The death of Jesus was known to mankind in the first word of the Bible (Bereshit). God was pleased at His death for it fulfilled 108 prophecies in the Bible dealing with that time...Yes, the People of Israel have been scattered all over the world,but God brought them back in 1948 and the remnant of Israel is yet to happen.
From a Jewish standpoint unscriptual.....Yes, I guess it is as all except God's elect are blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles (which takes them to the Millennium), They are reading from the ORAL TANACH, because in their eyes they have no way to remove,cover their sins since there is no temple to purge themselves. Yes, it is absolutely Absurd
Be very afraid....there is no coming back from a life without the Lord as the Richman found out.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
The very first scripture in your copied and pasted list refutes all the rest…
The “soul” is “destroyed” in Gehenna. (“Hell”)…not tormented.
Those in Gehenna are ‘imprisoned’ figuratively, in death. One can only suffer torment if one is alive….the dead are not alive…..and the torment occurs in those who finally realize that the devil sold them a lie right in the beginning…..God told Adam he would “surely die” if he disobeyed God’s command….it was the devil who told the woman…” you will surely NOT die”…..so who lied? How many people does the devil have believing the first lie he ever told?…..only his own children. (John 8:44)
The dead “sleep” as Jesus said of his friend Lazarus….John 11:11-14.
Where was Lazarus before Jesus raised him? If he was in heaven then why bring him back to this life, only to die again later? What was the point?
Was Jesus doing Lazarus a favor?
Bladerunner
Member
As seen in Luk 16:19-31, the Richman's body had died but His souls still was tormented.Your soul is your everything....It is every part of you. Your body is simply a container for the soul. The fourth horseman of Rev 6 is the Pale Horse an upon Him were Death (of the Body) and Hell (for the Soul). This is what war brings on. Death and Hell.By the way... Death and Hell is WHO, Israel makes a covenant with at the beginning of Daniel's 70th week. No, according to Luke 16:19-31, the soul is tortured in the heat and flames of Hell...Be very afraid.
The devil was both a liar and a murderer from the beginning. Yes God did tell Adam that if the fruit of the forbidden tree was eaten, he (Adam) would surely die (that very day)Did He lie to Adam....lets explore it a little....When Adam fell, Death came to Him that day. Until then Adam walked with GOD and I suspect He was clothed in light. there was no death as many will find out in the repeat of Eden during the millennium. Yes, He died that day and brought Death that very day upon us all.....Now lets go a little farther. The days of the Lord are 1000 years to our year. Adam die at 930 well within the 1,000 years. Rem. this is not about us, it is for God's Glory. God did not lie on either point. p.s. Adam fell for the Love of a woman..think about that........Yes He did.
you got a good point there and why would the pharisees kill him again? The Body sleeps in the grave...this comes from olden time where when one dies their body in most cases is so peaceful as if in a sleep....We know that the Body decays and becomes dirt again..what of those bodies that are of the sea. they are in a deep sleep (pun), yet Jesus tells us that whoever is in Him at the time of their death, they will be with Him always and if not, then I guess Hell gets them....
Jesus was showing us, that He and He alone has the power of life over death..would you believe that you would live forever if you believed in Jesus Christ...without those types of miracles.
In Heaven, Jesus gives you the power to bring to life, which you can do as long as God receives the praise.
Does a Muslim woman with the power to bring to life, not do so for the praise of God - if that woman is in Heaven?
Everyone who reaches Heaven, is instructed as to what they can do, not knowing in this life, is not an excuse!
Bladerunner
Member
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
“Abraham’s bosom” seems to have been given a meaning it never had…..what did it mean to a Jew?
Being in the “bosom” of someone, alludes to one’s reclining in front of another person on the same couch at a meal.
Guests reclined on their left side with a pillow supporting their left elbow, leaving the right arm free. Usually three persons occupied each couch, but there could be as many as five. The head of each one would be on or near the breast, or bosom, as it were, of the person behind him. The person with no one at his back was considered in the highest position and the one next to him in the second place of honor. In view of the nearness of the guests to one another, it was the custom that friend be placed next to friend, which made it rather easy to engage in confidential conversation if desired. To be in such a bosom position of another at a banquet was indeed to occupy a special place of favor with that one. So the apostle John, whom Jesus dearly loved, “was reclining in front of Jesus’ bosom,” and in such a position he “leaned back upon the breast of Jesus” and privately asked him a question at the celebration of the last Passover. (John 13:23, 25; John 21:20)
So its interesting that the parable speaks of the beggar being “in the bosom of Abraham”, not God.
Abraham himself was in such a position, as the only man on earth to be called “Jehovah’s friend”. (2 Chron 20:7; Isa 41:8; James 2:23)
And as Abraham died before Jesus ransomed mankind and opened the way to heaven, Abraham did not go anywhere when he died, except to “Rest in Peace” in his grave (Sheol).
So for starters…you have that all wrong. So what else is wrong with your interpretation?
Bladerunner
Member
WHat is the meaning of "Bosom" .."The chest of a human." whether male or female. into ones loving arms? Look to gen 16:5 "And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee." she gave her maid into his chest/arms Then in Exo 4:7 "And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his other flesh." Jesus uses it three times each meaning "place your hand in my chest area.
Look they are in the arms, the chest of Abraham...those are the meanings of the Hebrew words that are in the Septuigent XXL.
I have notice that you are placing your words in for GOD. Rem, Therefore you CANNOT say, "Yeah Hath God Said" they are not his words, they are your words or the words/thoughts of a blinded people to this day.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Again, from the Jewish perspective, the “soul” is the whole person as you said….the body, whilst its lungs and heart pump oxygen into every cell in the body, it is a living soul…..looking at Genesis we see that with “the breath (spirit) of life“, the body of Adam was animated to become a “soul”. Adam was not “given” a soul…he “became” one when God started him breathing.
Souls are mortal…there is no such thing as an immortal soul.
In Greek it says “death and hades” and in the ride of the horsemen of the Apocalypse we see the prominent features of these last days played out before our eyes.
The traditional rendering of the Hebrew word neʹphesh and the Greek word psy·kheʹ, examining the way these terms are used in the Bible, it becomes evident that they basically refer to (1) people, (2) animals, or (3) the life that a person or an animal has. (Gen 1:20; 2:7; Num 31:28; 1 Peter 3:20)
In contrast to the way that the term “soul” is used in many religious contexts, the Bible shows that both neʹphesh and psy·kheʹ, in connection with earthly creatures, refer to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal. A soul is never portrayed as a disembodied spirit. That is a pagan Greek idea that was adopted later by both apostate Judaism, and what later became, apostate “Christianity”.
I have no need to fear my God…..if you have reason to fear your god, then I pity you, for you do not know the God and Father of Jesus Christ. (John 17:3)
I agree, but what was the life that God purposed for the human race at the beginning? What did we lose that Jesus’ death gets back for us? Where were we to live forever….heaven or earth?
“Hell” (Sheol) gets all of us, since it is simply the common grave of all mankind. We all go to hell (Sheol/hades)….even Jesus went to hell (the grave) and was dead in his tomb for three days and nights, just as he stated. He was not raised until the third day…..and after that he remained for 40 days to strengthen his disciples for the difficult road ahead. Only then did he return to heaven…..and this was witnessed only by his closest associates. The world at large was unaware of what was taking place…and the angel told his disciples that he would return “in the same manner”…discerned by the “signs” he gave them. (Matt 24:3-14) He is already here.
One only has to read the Bible to get the big picture…..I see so many grappling with false ideas and trying to make them fit into the written word…..and it results in all sorts of weird scenarios and people claiming to be in direct communication with God….which they cannot prove. A wide assortment of ideas are proffered as Bible truth……how many truths are there?
If mortal man was designed to live forever, then where was he supposed to live without death changing his appearance and plans? If he was never supposed to go to heaven, then why was it necessary to choose God’s elect to rule with Christ in heaven? (Rev 20:6)
What was God’s first purpose for the human race? And where will he spend eternity?
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
You did not explain why the beggar was in the arms of Abraham and not God…..
ThePuffyBlob
Well-Known Member
Given that unborn babies are conceived through irresponsible circumstances, would a loving and just God condemn these innocent unborn babies to eternal punishment simply because they aren't Christian?
PossibleThrowawayAccount
Active Member
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