CALVINISM IS SIMPLY THE GOSPEL BELIEVED

[Logikos]

when it comes to most catholics. I know they truly believe what they say, i do nto believe they are knowingly lieing about their faith. The pharisee who pumped his chest really believed he was ok with God and accused the tax collector.. It is no different.

You stated the church did not start until Paul was converted.. I disagree

I did not say that.

I said that the Body of Christ did not start until Paul was converted.

Do you understand the difference?

It is the difference between Law and Grace.

 

[Ritajanice]

Proverbs 27 1 Do not boast about tomorrow, for you do not know what a day may bring forth. Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; someone else, and not your own lips. Stone is heavy and sand a burden, but provocation by a fool is heavier than both.

 

[GodsGrace]

My formal apologies to @GodsGrace and @Eternally Grateful

That's very nice of you.
I come here for fellowship and to discuss the word of God and to share thoughts and beliefs and to study
the word of God.

We can disagree but still be civil to each other.
I like to read posts carefully because I don't spend a lot of time here and cannot use it to
correct what someone has misinterpreted about what I wrote.

So I'm willing to start over.
I'm not going to agree with you about everything,
but we're still brothers in Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

I chew on Gods word every day. It does not mean I chew on a wafer and it become the flesh of Christ.

I pray you study John 6 as a wqhole. and not just one small part of a whole conversation jesus had with the people.

I've studied it a lot EG.
I always thought it was spiritual.
But I'm starting to wonder.
What about the Last Supper?
THIS IS MY BODY which will be given up/broken for you....
then Jesus broke the bread...the bread/His body.
And John 6:53 is different from the other words that mean "to eat", it literally means to chew, and He was referring to His Body, NOT the Word.

Anyway, this is a personal journey and I can't defend my position any better.
Some other Christian denominations also believe in the Real Presence - which is different of course, but it makes the wafer be more than just a wafer.

I know many catholics who read the bible. Although they are no longer catholic. and when you ask them why, they said they started to read the bible.. or were talking to people who were showing them the bible and what it says.

I have seen this also

Because the jews thought they were righteous with God based on keeping the law.

The catholics believe they are righteous with God because they keep their laws

Which laws do Catholics believe they have to keep?
Do you mean the sacraments?

There are so many similarites it is actually amazing when you look at it.. They use many of the same arguments even when people talk to them..

But the catholic church looks NOTHING like the churches of the NT (actually very few if any denomination churches look anythjing like they did back then) and they certainly do not hold to the same truths as the disciples did.

Oh. I agree. The CC today is nothing like the early CC.
This goes without saying.
But it doesn't take away from the fact that it was the first church.

Yes. Catholic means universal. So they use that name to prove they are the first church. it is just one of the many excuses I have heard over the years why they are the only true church.

I think the first church is different than the true church.
I don't know if we have a true church anymore.
I know that we have a true Church (the Body of Christ).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Of course they are.


Quite easily, in most cases.

Wow you do have a God complex don;t you? You know what a person did 30 years ago?

But I do have the mind of Christ!

do you? I have not been able to discern this yet. I just met you

Same exact thing.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

thats judging a persons gospel. not the person.

Your not God. you do not know if they truly believed 20 years ago or not

I am not suggesting otherwise nor am I suggesting that an ability to discern whether someone is saved or not is the final answer to such a question. We can make mistakes of judgment but that is no reason to abdicate the responsibility of doing so. It just means that we have to take it seriously and with a measure of humility.

I can say I doubt a persons salvation.

I better never tell a person they are not saved, or even they are saved. Because only God knows this

Indeed, my main point with challenging you on this has to do with your unbiblical stance.

do what?

Some people are better suited to certain things than others. If you don't feel qualified to judge whether Hillary Clinton is saved or unsaved then you should probably refrain from doing so but the point here is that such a lack of discernment cannot rightly be laid off onto some biblical injunction against judging people because no such injunction exists.

I am not God.. But hey, if you want to play God feel free.. I will walk away

More than that, it doesn't even make any sense. How are people supposed to witness to unbelievers if we aren't allowed to determine who is and who isn't an unbeliever? Which makes more sense, street witnessing on Venice Beach on a Friday evening or doing so on the sidewalk in front of the First Baptist Church of Denver on Sunday mornings? By your logic, you'd have to be God to make such a distinction, which just means that you haven't thought it through. Someone, somewhere taught you that it's wrong to judge (which is a very hypocritically judgmental thing to say, by the way). They did so in error. I recommend rethinking it because it's a rule that you cannot follow.

I never assume someone is saved or not. I just witness to them.

Actually the answer to your question. Friday and evening and Sunday morning are both great times to give the gospel. the gospel should be a 24/7 thing, not just a sunday thing..

And here you go telling me what I think. Dude you have some deep pride issues.. Before you start judging others. you need to judge yourself.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Proverbs 23:7 For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.

so what was David thinking when he called a beautiful lady to his bedroom and in essence raped her, then had her husband killed when she got pregnant.

Was he thinking as a Man after Gods own heart. Would any laymen who looked at him at that time and knew nothing else about him think he was saved.

get real man..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I did not say that.

I said that the Body of Christ did not start until Paul was converted.

And your wrong..

Do you understand the difference?

Do you? Because your wrong.

The body of christ started when jesus said it is finished. at the least. Maybe in acts 2 when Peter gave his speach? Or how about this, when God gave the abrahamic covenant. or even further back. When God saved Adam and Eve and made them the first 2 members of the body of Christ (remember, Christ saved them also)

It is the difference between Law and Grace.

ahh,, Grace was preached by peter before paul was converted. so again.. Nice try

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I've studied it a lot EG.
I always thought it was spiritual.
But I'm starting to wonder.
What about the Last Supper?
THIS IS MY BODY which will be given up/broken for you....
then Jesus broke the bread...the bread/His body.
And John 6:53 is different from the other words that mean "to eat", it literally means to chew, and He was referring to His Body, NOT the Word.

Look at both instances

The last supper. jesus sdaid do often in remembrance of me

In John 6, Jesus said whoever ate this food would never hunger, never thirst, They would live forever, they would never die. They would be ressurected by him on the last day. and they have eternal life He also called it the food that endured forever.

so one you eat often

the other you eat once.. and never have to eat again.

one is a ceremony, the other is chewing on the words of God. As jesus said, it is the spirit who gives life. the words he speaks is spirit and life (john 6: 61-63)

Anyway, this is a personal journey and I can't defend my position any better.
Some other Christian denominations also believe in the Real Presence - which is different of course, but it makes the wafer be more than just a wafer.

I know they do. Like I said, alot of them left the catholic church, but kept many of their teachings.

Which laws do Catholics believe they have to keep?
Do you mean the sacraments?

whatever they say we need to do to make sure we get to heaven.

Oh. I agree. The CC today is nothing like the early CC.
This goes without saying.
But it doesn't take away from the fact that it was the first church.

But it was not..

I think the first church is different than the true church.
I don't know if we have a true church anymore.
I know that we have a true Church (the Body of Christ).

study the book of acts. you will see the church met differently (in homes) they did not have church buildings or cathedrals (they were pagan temples back then) even the jews had synygogs, and nbot the elaborate expensive building they worshiped in (with the exception of the temple. which served a purpose)

 

[Logikos]

Wow you do have a God complex don;t you?

No, of course not.

You know what a person did 30 years ago?

What a person did or didn't do thirty years ago isn't relevant in most cases.

A person who was saved 30 years ago but has back-slidden into a state of practical disbelief might still make it to the Day of Redemption but aught no be treated as though they are perfectly fine to go on living as though the God who bought them doesn't exist.

In other words, it is wiser to give people the benefit of the doubt and treat them as though they are NOT saved, when any such doubt exists.

Conversely, it is foolish to treat someone as an unbeliever when no such doubt exists. Of course, by your logic, there isn't ever any such thing as a person who is definitely saved. You, by your own statement, have to be God to tell.

do you? I have not been able to discern this yet. I just met you

If I am saved I definitely do. If I do not then I am not saved. So your question implies a judgment process underway in your own mind.

See what I mean by it being a rule that you cannot follow?

thats judging a persons gospel. not the person.

It's the same thing EG! One is saved by believing THE gospel. If they have believed a false gospel then they are not saved, by definition.

Your not God. you do not know if they truly believed 20 years ago or not

I agree but I don't need to.

Like I said, we can be wrong but that is not an excuse to abdicate the responsibility of making such judgments, not that any such abdication is even possible to begin with.

I can say I doubt a persons salvation.

Not without making a judgment about their salvation, you can't.

I better never tell a person they are not saved, or even they are saved. Because only God knows this

Unbiblical foolishness that cannot be put into practice.

do what?

I am not God.. But hey, if you want to play God feel free.. I will walk away

It has nothing to do with playing God, it has to do with obeying Him, as I have established with multiple passages.

I never assume someone is saved or not. I just witness to them.

Witness much to your pastor? How about your wife and kids?

Actually the answer to your question. Friday and evening and Sunday morning are both great times to give the gospel. the gospel should be a 24/7 thing, not just a sunday thing..

Intellectually dishonest answer. It wasn't about the day of the week, it was about the group of people you're likely to encounter. Of course you knew that when you wrote this silly response.

If street witnessing to the Baptists on their way to church makes as much sense to you as doing the same where a bunch of unchurched people go to hang out and get drunk every weekend then you have discernment issues that I don't know how to even discuss.

And here you go telling me what I think. Dude you have some deep pride issues.. Before you start judging others. you need to judge yourself.

I have no idea what you're even talking about. You're reading things into my posts that are not there. You're emotional and don't seem to care what Jesus Himself said about judging people. I don't know what you're doing here if you can't take someone challenging your doctrine by quoting the bible.

 

[Logikos]

so what was David thinking when he called a beautiful lady to his bedroom and in essence raped her, then had her husband killed when she got pregnant.

Was he thinking as a Man after Gods own heart. Would any laymen who looked at him at that time and knew nothing else about him think he was saved.

get real man..

Proverbs 24:16 For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

 

[Logikos]

And your wrong..

Do you? Because your wrong.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

I can prove my doctrine. Can you?

The body of christ started when jesus said it is finished.

Really? Are you sure about that?

Jesus' death on the cross took place on Passover - a Jewish feast day.
Jesus spent the Feast of Unleaven Bread - another Jewish feast day.
Jesus rose from the dead of the Feast of First Fruits - yet another Jewish feast day.
Then after the completion of seven weeks from the Passover, The Holy Spirit is given as a fulfillment of Pentecost or The Feast of Weeks - once again, a Jewish Feast day.

Just prior to Pentecost, by the way, the Eleven appointed Matthias as Judas' replacement in keeping with the authority Jesus had delegated to the Twelve to act in His absence. Their choice being ratified by God when they all received the Holy Spirit in Acts 2. In which case, where is the need for Paul?

at the least. Maybe in acts 2 when Peter gave his speach? Or how about this, when God gave the abrahamic covenant. or even further back. When God saved Adam and Eve and made them the first 2 members of the body of Christ (remember, Christ saved them also)

The Body of Christ vs. Israel is not a matter of saved or not saved, it is a matter of dispensation. The believers that were saved in Acts 2, for example, were really saved and they were Christians but they were not members of the Body of Christ. The distinction being one of a covenant of law that was under-girded by grace vs. one of pure grace apart from works of the law.

ahh,, Grace was preached by peter before paul was converted. so again.. Nice try

Where is this hostility coming from?

I am trying to engage you in a adult conversation about complex issues where we aren't going to agree on most points. Is that not what this website is here for? When someone presents a new idea to you, is this your normal course, to talk down to them like they're an idiot and who couldn't possibly have anything that resembles a good reason to believe what they are saying? Is it only unbelievers that you give the benefit of the doubt to and refuse to judge?

Paul did NOT preach grace! I'd love to see you attempt to establish that claim.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No, of course not.

could have fooled me

What a person did or didn't do thirty years ago isn't relevant in most cases.

Ah, sorry bud, But it is very relevent. unless you believe salvation can be lost. if a person was born again 30 years ago. he or she is still saved, even if we look at them and thinkk otherwise..

A person who was saved 30 years ago but has back-slidden into a state of practical disbelief might still make it to the Day of Redemption but aught no be treated as though they are perfectly fine to go on living as though the God who bought them doesn't exist.

So we can lose salvation. we are under law. not grace..

In other words, it is wiser to give people the benefit of the doubt and treat them as though they are NOT saved, when any such doubt exists.

Just give them the gospel. don't judge them..

Conversely, it is foolish to treat someone as an unbeliever when no such doubt exists. Of course, by your logic, there isn't ever any such thing as a person who is definitely saved. You, by your own statement, have to be God to tell.

Like I said, the pharisees were considered Gods people. no one questioned their faith.. they were the most Godly. That was until Christ came..

Just because someone walks and talks like a christian does not make them any more of a Christian than an athiest.

If I am saved I definitely do. If I do not then I am not saved. So your question implies a judgment process underway in your own mind.

See what I mean by it being a rule that you cannot follow?

No, I did not question your salvation. You said you had the mind of Christ. I just said I do not have enough info to agree with this. You could be a babe in Christ for all I know.. A babe does not yet have the mind of Christ, they need to Grow.

It's the same thing EG! One is saved by believing THE gospel. If they have believed a false gospel then they are not saved, by definition.

Again, did they believe 30 years ago?

I agree but I don't need to.

Like I said, we can be wrong but that is not an excuse to abdicate the responsibility of making such judgments, not that any such abdication is even possible to begin with.

Its wrong to judge what you do not know.

Look at you defending yourself. Your not even able to take some correction

Not without making a judgment about their salvation, you can't.

yes I can

Just because I say I doubt a person is saved does not mean I know. or even that they are saved or not. it has no bearing.. If anything, the only things is may do is determine what I may say to them concerning God.

Unbiblical foolishness that cannot be put into practice.

so your God.. thats the ONLY WAY you can say otherwise.

Again, you have a God complex. repent my friend.

It has nothing to do with playing God, it has to do with obeying Him, as I have established with multiple passages.

Judge not lest ye be judged. Jesus said he did not come to judge the world but to save it.

For someone who says he has the mind of Christ. you do not know Christ very well.

Witness much to your pastor? How about your wife and kids?

do I need to? what does this have to do with you judging a person you never met, and do not know ? Give me a break man!!!!

Intellectually dishonest answer. It wasn't about the day of the week, it was about the group of people you're likely to encounter. Of course you knew that when you wrote this silly response.

Nope, I did not

I gave an honest answer. Giving the gospel would be applicable in both senerios.. My pastor gives the gospel every Sunday.. I guess yours does not? And I pray you give the gospel on Firday night and every day of the week for this case.

The flaw was your question. not my answer. you tried to draw something out and it backfired. because it was faulty reasoning.

If street witnessing to the Baptists on their way to church makes as much sense to you as doing the same where a bunch of unchurched people go to hang out and get drunk every weekend then you have discernment issues that I don't know how to even discuss.

Again, My pastor gives the gospel every sunday morning and evening, and when I was a baptist. My baptist pastor gave the gaospel 2 times on sunday and one time on wed night prayer meeting.

Your drawing on straws and failing miserably.

I have no idea what you're even talking about. You're reading things into my posts that are not there. You're emotional and don't seem to care what Jesus Himself said about judging people. I don't know what you're doing here if you can't take someone challenging your doctrine by quoting the bible.

I am emotional yet here you are trying to defend yourself with emotional content.

lol.. I am just trying to help you stop judgi9ng people. You want to play god feel free. don;t expect me to give you any slack.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Proverbs 24:16 For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

that did not answer my question,.

Youi said we can tell if a person is saved by the what they thought in their heart.

did David act like God. did a person who never met him before think he could be saved?

nice deflect though

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Saying it doesn't make it so.

I can prove my doctrine. Can you?

Yes. do you even know what my doctrine is?

And your still wrong. the body of Christ did not start with Paul.

Really? Are you sure about that?

If you read my post you would not the answer to this.

Jesus' death on the cross took place on Passover - a Jewish feast day.
Jesus spent the Feast of Unleaven Bread - another Jewish feast day.
Jesus rose from the dead of the Feast of First Fruits - yet another Jewish feast day.
Then after the completion of seven weeks from the Passover, The Holy Spirit is given as a fulfillment of Pentecost or The Feast of Weeks - once again, a Jewish Feast day.

So??

where they under law or grace, has anyone been saved by law ever on this planet? Or has it been salvation by grace through faith since the begining.

Just prior to Pentecost, by the way, the Eleven appointed Matthias as Judas' replacement in keeping with the authority Jesus had delegated to the Twelve to act in His absence. Their choice being ratified by God when they all received the Holy Spirit in Acts 2. In which case, where is the need for Paul?

And? Your missing the point. and making me question you even understand the truth yourself.

The Body of Christ vs. Israel is not a matter of saved or not saved, it is a matter of dispensation.

Actually it is a matter of who is saved.

I am a dispensationalist. So do not tell me what they believe. However. I do worry you may be one of those who believe the jews were saved by law.. Which would put you on the wrong side of dispensationalism. I pray this is not the case.

The believers that were saved in Acts 2, for example, were really saved and they were Christians but they were not members of the Body of Christ. The distinction being one of a covenant of law that was under-girded by grace vs. one of pure grace apart from works of the law.

yes, they were members of the body of Christ.

Good God where do you get your information from??

You are a snide little jerk.

lol..so when I state a fact that makes me a jerk? Funny how you can not show where I am wrong. now your resorting to add hominem attacks.

Typical..

Where is this hostility coming from?

No hostility. If you feel hostility maybe you have a guilt complex. and your flesh does not like being told it is wrong.

I am trying to engage you in a adult conversation about complex issues where we aren't going to agree on most points. Is that not what this website is here for? When someone presents a new idea to you, is this your normal course, to talk down to them like they're an idiot and who couldn't possibly have anything that resembles a good reason to believe what they are saying? Is it only unbelievers that you give the benefit of the doubt to and refuse to judge?

let me guess. If I agreed with you you would be totally ok with me. but since I do not. and in our conversations show you why I can nbot agree with you, its not an adult conversation?

Again. Look inside men..

Paul did NOT preach grace! I'd love to see you attempt to establish that claim.

I never stated paul did not teach grace. so why would I want to establish he taught otherwise?

jesus taught Grace,

Peter and John taught grace

they all taught grace.

salvation for all of mankind from adam until today has been saved by grace.

Do you disagree with thtis notion?

 

[GodsGrace]

So beliefe that we have eternal life is damnable????

It's not the belief in eternal life that's damnable....it's the CONSEQUENCES that it creates in some persons....
those that believe that they're behavior does NOT matter...
This could be damnable and I gave the verses.

Hebrews 3:14 comes to mind
14For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

I think I had posted
John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

The above state that we must hold our original confidence firm to the end....
and - that our good deeds will lead to a life of resurrection of life and evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

This means that we must hold firm our faith TILL THE END
and
That our deeds WILL count for a resurrection of life.

So what IF the person that believes in faith ONLY has no change in their life/behavior...
aren't the 2 verses I posted damnable for them?

Aren't we supposed to be obeying Jesus and what He taught?

this is either true, or we are not saved by grace. You can not get away from this.

What does grace have to do with what I posted?
Here's what I said:

OSAS states that once a person becomes born again, nothing he does (or does not do) can keep him from being saved.

And here's what you replied:

"this is either true, or we are not saved by grace. You can not get away from this."

Let's make sure we both understand what you're saying:
What you're agreeing to is that once a person is born again, he can do anything he wants to do AND STILL be saved.
This means that he can lie, steal, cheat, blaspheme, etc. and STILL BE SAVED.

Is this what you believe?
Because this is what you're saying.

Your trying to assert our sanctification (christian Growth) where we recieve blessings or chastening from God is the same as our justification, which is based on god through grace not works.

I'm speaking of sanctification.
Justification is by grace and faith ALONE.

Sanctification is a life-long process and we cannot do whatever we want to and still be saved.
Sanctify means to be set aside for service to God.
It doesn't mean that we can sin and still be saved. (live a life of sin).

this is the issue.

No EG.
Let's put it like this:
The issue is whether or not we can do whatever we want to after salvation
or
Do we have to follow the teachings of Christ?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It's not the belief in eternal life that's damnable....it's the CONSEQUENCES that it creates in some persons....
those that believe that they're behavior does NOT matter...

If behavior matters then we are not saved by grace..

And if a person really thinks they can live like the world and still be saved. I doubt that person truly repented. and would doubt their salvation..

Salvation can not be lost. But it can be forfeited before it is ever given

This could be damnable and I gave the verses.

Hebrews 3:14 comes to mind
14For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

Yes. meaning not everyone who says they are saved is really saved. Many people claim they have faith. but either they have no works. or their faith is not really in Christ. but they have faith in something else. like the word says a dog returns to his vomit. why? He is still a dog.. he was never made into a new creature.

I think I had posted
John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Yes. Those who are born again do obey Gods commands. Not to get saved, but because they are saved, that is a descriptive passage, not a prescriptive

The above state that we must hold our original confidence firm to the end....
and - that our good deeds will lead to a life of resurrection of life and evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

But they do not say salvation can be lost,

That would contradict the very foundation Christ laid based on his death

This means that we must hold firm our faith TILL THE END
and
That our deeds WILL count for a resurrection of life.

No. it does not say this, it says they who are resurrected have obeyed.. as apposed to those who are not ressurected. who as John said, have sinned He who lives in sin has never seen or known God. whoever is born of God can not live in sin.

So what IF the person that believes in faith ONLY has no change in their life/behavior...

Where they born again? Did God change them into a new creature? or did they have a dead faith, as a hearer of the word not a doer. can that dead faith save them? No.

aren't the 2 verses I posted damnable for them?

No

Aren't we supposed to be obeying Jesus and what He taught?

Are you perfect? God demands perfection. Who has lived up to that standard.

If you have not. You can only get to heaven based on grace.. You can never bee good enough to earn salvation. even in your most righteous state you would deserve hell.

Now. should we follow Jesus. thats a bad question in my view. if God saved you from hell. and saved you from what you deserve. should you not in gratitude learn to be like him? Not out of selfish desire or legalistic thinking, but out of Love.

What does grace have to do with what I posted?
Here's what I said:

And here's what you replied:
"this is either true, or we are not saved by grace. You can not get away from this."

And I repeat it

Either eternal life, and the assurance that a person who is adopted in Gods family will never be lost. or we are not saved by grace.

grace is unmerited favor. if I have to earn Gods favor or I lose his favor. Then I was never under Gods mercy or grace

Let's make sure we both understand what you're saying:
What you're agreeing to is that once a person is born again, he can do anything he wants to do AND STILL be saved.

All things are lawful. Not all things are profitable.

What can I do that would remove Gods grace from me, and cause God to re-install his law?

This means that he can lie, steal, cheat, blaspheme, etc. and STILL BE SAVED.

Did Jesus not pay for these sins? David commited adultry and murder. did he stop being a man after Gods own Heart.

Is this what you believe?
Because this is what you're saying.

Yes it is.

because I am not under law. I am under grace.

We are only under one or the other. We can not be under both.

I'm speaking of sanctification.
Justification is by grace and faith ALONE.

But your saying Justification can be lost so what your saying does not add up.

if justification is by grace and faith alone. justification can never be lost. thats OSAS

Sanctification is a life-long process and we cannot do whatever we want to and still be saved.

Then we are not justified by faith and grace alone. Paul calls us fools. because we believe we begin in the spirit (grace through faith) but must perfect in the flesh (works)

Sanctify means to be set aside for service to God.

yes
Justified means to be declared innocent of all wrong doing, or have our sins remmitted. Abraham believed and was given christ's righteousness to hsi account. we are justified this same way

It doesn't mean that we can sin and still be saved. (live a life of sin).

Then we are under law not under grace.

A child of God does not want to sin, it does not mean they will not crash and burn, God does not kick us out of his family because we fail.. Salvation is not based on how good or bad we are. Unless we are under law. in this case, there is non righteous no not one.

No EG.
Let's put it like this:
The issue is whether or not we can do whatever we want to after salvation
or
Do we have to follow the teachings of Christ?

No

the issue is are we under law or grace.

if we are under law. then yes, we do have to follow Christ. and according to God. we better never sin, because if we even stumble in one point, we are guilty (see James)

If we are under grace, we were adopted. we were also washed sanctified and justified. All things are lawfull. they can not hurt us eternally anymore. but they can and will hurt us here on this earth.. We may even die because of our sins.

But we are still under grace. And as a Person who is under grace. I follow God because I want to. Out of gratitude for what he did. because I have experienced his love, and I trust him, its not a fake trust. its a living faith. It is in him, not in myself. nothing good comes from me, unless God is with me and works through me..

 

[GodsGrace]

@Eternally Grateful
Sorry EG.
Too late here and too tired.
I owe you 2 posts...
tomorrow.

 

[Logikos]

could have fooled me

Ah, sorry bud, But it is very relevent. unless you believe salvation can be lost. if a person was born again 30 years ago. he or she is still saved, even if we look at them and thinkk otherwise..

So we can lose salvation. we are under law. not grace..


Just give them the gospel. don't judge them..

Like I said, the pharisees were considered Gods people. no one questioned their faith.. they were the most Godly. That was until Christ came..

Just because someone walks and talks like a christian does not make them any more of a Christian than an athiest.

No, I did not question your salvation. You said you had the mind of Christ. I just said I do not have enough info to agree with this. You could be a babe in Christ for all I know.. A babe does not yet have the mind of Christ, they need to Grow.

Again, did they believe 30 years ago?



Its wrong to judge what you do not know.

Look at you defending yourself. Your not even able to take some correction

yes I can

Just because I say I doubt a person is saved does not mean I know. or even that they are saved or not. it has no bearing.. If anything, the only things is may do is determine what I may say to them concerning God.

so your God.. thats the ONLY WAY you can say otherwise.

Again, you have a God complex. repent my friend.

Judge not lest ye be judged. Jesus said he did not come to judge the world but to save it.

For someone who says he has the mind of Christ. you do not know Christ very well.

do I need to? what does this have to do with you judging a person you never met, and do not know ? Give me a break man!!!!

Nope, I did not

I gave an honest answer. Giving the gospel would be applicable in both senerios.. My pastor gives the gospel every Sunday.. I guess yours does not? And I pray you give the gospel on Firday night and every day of the week for this case.

The flaw was your question. not my answer. you tried to draw something out and it backfired. because it was faulty reasoning.

Again, My pastor gives the gospel every sunday morning and evening, and when I was a baptist. My baptist pastor gave the gaospel 2 times on sunday and one time on wed night prayer meeting.

Your drawing on straws and failing miserably.

I am emotional yet here you are trying to defend yourself with emotional content.

lol.. I am just trying to help you stop judgi9ng people. You want to play god feel free. don;t expect me to give you any slack.

You're either emotionally unhinged to the point that you're incapable of having an adult discussion with someone you don't already agree with or you're stupid or you're flatly dishonest.

I can't really tell which it is. You somehow were able to read my post and come away think that I believe you can lose your salvation. That's a level of disconnect that I don't know how to deal with.

It doesn't matter. Either way you go, you are no value to me here. Good bye.

 

[Logikos]

Yes. do you even know what my doctrine is?

And your still wrong. the body of Christ did not start with Paul.



If you read my post you would not the answer to this.


So??

where they under law or grace, has anyone been saved by law ever on this planet? Or has it been salvation by grace through faith since the begining.



And? Your missing the point. and making me question you even understand the truth yourself.

Actually it is a matter of who is saved.

I am a dispensationalist. So do not tell me what they believe. However. I do worry you may be one of those who believe the jews were saved by law.. Which would put you on the wrong side of dispensationalism. I pray this is not the case.

yes, they were members of the body of Christ.

Good God where do you get your information from??

lol..so when I state a fact that makes me a jerk? Funny how you can not show where I am wrong. now your resorting to add hominem attacks.

Typical..

No hostility. If you feel hostility maybe you have a guilt complex. and your flesh does not like being told it is wrong.

let me guess. If I agreed with you you would be totally ok with me. but since I do not. and in our conversations show you why I can nbot agree with you, its not an adult conversation?

Again. Look inside men..

I never stated paul did not teach grace. so why would I want to establish he taught otherwise?

jesus taught Grace,

Peter and John taught grace

they all taught grace.

salvation for all of mankind from adam until today has been saved by grace.

Do you disagree with thtis notion?

First of all, I did, of course mean to say that Peter did not preach grace and typed "Paul" by mistake. I can no longer tell whether you have the intelligence required to have figured that you for yourself or not and I no longer care.


You are a worthless, needlessly hostile, waste of bandwidth. Have fun chewing the fat with everyone you already agree with.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You're either emotionally unhinged to the point that you're incapable of having an adult discussion with someone you don't already agree with or you're stupid or you're flatly dishonest.

I can't really tell which it is. You somehow were able to read my post and come away think that I believe you can lose your salvation. That's a level of disconnect that I don't know how to deal with.

It doesn't matter. Either way you go, you are no value to me here. Good bye.

Well my friend, I just reported you.

also. This just proved you did not listen a thing I said. I never said you believed youy could lose your salvation.

I said the lint was relevant, UNLESS you believe one could lose salvation.

Don;t come trying to attack people when you can not even understand what you are talking about. Or what they are saying

Thanks for showing me however. That what I thought was true..