Hellfire and brimstone has given way to eternal separation from God. - Why?

[Johann]

That saw cuts both ways.

[

Like you, I believe 100% of the OT was "written by prophets and holy men of God." But authorship by such persons neither nullifies nor ensures that their words were "God-breathed," so I don't know why you bother to comment on their status. The Scriptures in question are "God-breathed" on their merits, holiness of the authors aside.

That said, "God-breathed" does not mean "factually inerrant." We know this because there are errors. That's the human element creeping in. God would not let His ultimate message be misstated, but the factual adornments in which the authors chose to couch their stories are another matter.

You are in error-you and @St. SteVen.


Scripture is "God-breathed" and authoritative in all it teaches:

2 Timothy 3:16 (Lexham Bible): "All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness."
This verse emphasizes that all Scripture is inspired by God. The term "God-breathed" (Greek: theopneustos) implies divine origin, not just guidance but the very breath of God. If the text originates from God Himself, it holds authority in both its spiritual and factual claims. The idea that the "factual adornments" can be mistaken would contradict the nature of a God who is Truth (John 14:6).
God’s Word is perfect and pure:

Psalm 19:7 (Lexham Bible): "The law of Yahweh is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of Yahweh is reliable, making the simple wise."
The psalmist declares the law of Yahweh to be "perfect" (tamim), which indicates completeness and soundness, leaving no room for human error. God's Word is not mixed with falsehood or human frailty but stands as a flawless revelation of His truth.

Psalm 12:6 (Lexham Bible): "The words of Yahweh are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times."
God's words are described as pure and thoroughly refined. This purity implies freedom from any imperfections, including factual or historical inaccuracies.

Jesus affirmed the authority and reliability of Scripture:

John 10:35 (Lexham Bible): "If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken."
Jesus affirms that Scripture cannot be "broken" or rendered void. This indicates that every aspect of Scripture—whether moral, spiritual, historical, or factual—is reliable. If any error were present, it would undermine this unbreakable quality that Jesus attributes to God's Word.
The human element in writing does not diminish divine accuracy:

2 Peter 1:20-21 (Lexham Bible): "Knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."
Though humans were the instruments through which Scripture was written, they were "carried along" by the Holy Spirit. This eliminates the possibility of human error creeping in, as the inspiration was guided by the Holy Spirit, ensuring accuracy in both spiritual truths and factual details.
God's Word endures forever without error:

Isaiah 40:8 (Lexham Bible): "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever."
God's Word is not only eternal but also unchanging. This durability and permanence reinforce the inerrancy of Scripture because God's truth remains uncorrupted by human error throughout all generations.
God is not the author of confusion or error:

Numbers 23:19 (Lexham Bible): "God is not a man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?"

If God does not lie and His words are true, then to claim that the human authors of Scripture introduced errors contradicts God’s nature. His message is clear, truthful, and reliable in all its parts, including any historical or factual elements.
In light of these passages, the biblical case for the inerrancy of Scripture is strong. To say that "God-breathed" writings can contain human error would contradict these clear affirmations of the divine perfection, purity, and reliability of the Scriptures as a whole.

J.

Your superiority complex is impressive.
Since when are your opinions the standard for truth?

[

Scripture is the ultimate standard of truth—something that may be unfamiliar to you.

J.

 

[Ritajanice]

@St. SteVen ..Bible-thumpers


What’s a Bible thumper?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Your superiority complex is impressive.
Since when are your opinions the standard for truth?

Scripture is the ultimate standard of truth—something that may be unfamiliar to you.

Too bad there is no standard for interpretation.
You can make it say whatever you want and then declare your words as truth.

Scriptures are a gift, made to be shared—something that may be unfamiliar to you. ???
Jesus understood this,

Luke 10:26 NIV
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

[

 

[Taken]

Hellfire and brimstone has given way to eternal separation from God. - Why?

Every individual has opportunity to hear, learn about God, and freely, willing, choose to BE with or without Him…AND enjoy HIS provided love, peace, comfort, joy, provisions of food, shelter and beauty…(or not).

Heaven is real.
Hell is real.

Every human lives his life in a Living Body. That body’s Life is it’s Blood.
That Living Body, makes choices while alive, FOR while it is alive…..AND FOR it’s Living soul, AFTER its BODY mortally Dies.

Heaven / Hell are the TWO places the Departed Living soul of a Mortally Dead man SHALL GO, dependent upon what the MAN while alive IN his BODY…CHOSE for his Living soul TO GO, after his bodily death.

That IS THE WHY.

Heaven….is the place God established FOR depart living souls to BE WITH God, just as they were WITH While it was IN their Living Body.

Hell…is the place God established FOR departed living soul to BE WITHOUT God, just as they were WIThOUT While it was IN their Living Body.

Heaven / Hell for departed Living souls is simple an extension of being with or without God as it was while that Living soul WAS IN its living body.

MYSTERY….
God is invisible, and thus unable for humans to see, hear, touch, smell….

HOWEVER….
Regardless of where ANY man is born, lives, on this planet (this world)….God provides what is called………A TASTING…….(a visible, audible) PREVIEW of sorts….regarding what it shall be LIKE…(for an eternity)….for a man who Chooses to be WITH or WITHOUT God forever.)

IN this WORLD every man WILL experience;

* Beautiful…scenery, smells, sounds, things to touch and feel and taste.

* Grossly Unpleasant…scenery, smells, sounds, things to touch and feel and taste.

** Even Gods WORD, Teaching, is A TASTING man can taste, taste, taste…
And CHOOSE to EAT IT…or SPIT IT OUT.

Every TIME…a man experiences EITHER…
* Beautiful…and acknowledges it is FROM God, THAT is a thankfulness unto God, AND God is WITH that man.

* Grossly Unpleasant….and acknowledges it is FROM God….ONE of TWO things will Occur…
* The Lord God WILL be WITH that man…TO COMFORT the man.
* The Lord God WILL NOT be WITH that man…TO COMFORT the man.
*** Difference…
* One man will PRAISE God FOR His Comfort.
* One man will CURSE God FOR His Duress.

POINT BEING…
There will, IN THIS WORLD…always BE DIVISION…between men, regarding Everything, from religion, politics, medical cares, food, clothing, transportation, homes, entertainment, music, sports, education, ideas, friends or not….Likes / Dislikes etc.
………..AND the Lord God……OR NOT.

And the FACT IS: men are chatter-box’s….
They WANT and DO express their Likes / Dislikes ABOUT “everything”….
INCLUDING….the Lord God.
* and inasmuch as men pay attention to mingling with other men BECAUSE there is something they have a COMMON thing they both LIKE…….so also do men gravitate toward or distant from the God Factor of men WITH or WITHOUT God.

It should be OF NO SURPRISE…of man being MADE in Gods “LIKENESS”….that God Himself….desires to “mingle with”, “be with”, “men who EMBRACE the Likeness” AS God.

My 2 cents.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Lizbeth]

Your superiority complex is impressive.
Since when are your opinions the standard for truth?

[

God's word is the standard for truth. It was Jesus who said scripture cannot be broken. And His word is not an opinion, but the word of God.

We can test scripture against other scripture to verify them......comparing spiritual with spiritual. There are sometimes problems with translation though and we sometimes need to check the original language and grammar etc. to get an accurate sense of the meaning.

Like the English word "hell" is used to translate the words hades, geena (Gehenna) and tartarus......I believe that might have been a mistake really because those words are not necessarily speaking of the same thing. I'm not a scholar but from what I can make out hades refers to the place of the dead (first death) where we all go before the judgment takes place and geena seems to be referring to the final judgment, the lake of fire which is the second death. Not sure but Tartarus or tartaroo might be a deeper and "darker" place within hades, or it might simply be as opposed to paradise where the righteous dead are held in hades before the resurrection.

 

[Johann]

St. SteVen said:
Your superiority complex is impressive.
Since when are your opinions the standard for truth?

Too bad there is no standard for interpretation.
You can make it say whatever you want and then declare your words as truth.

Scriptures are a gift, made to be shared—something that may be unfamiliar to you. ???
Jesus understood this,

Luke 10:26 NIV
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

[

Who were the recipients to whom the Messiah was speaking?

J.

 

[RedFan]

If the text originates from God Himself, it holds authority in both its spiritual and factual claims. The idea that the "factual adornments" can be mistaken would contradict the nature of a God who is Truth (John 14:6).

But the TEXT does not originate from God Himself. The MESSAGE that the text writers were inspired to write does. If the TEXT originated from Him, Bible stories would never contradict each other. Yet they do.

I agree that "IF the text originates from God Himself" it would be factually accurate down to the last jot and tittle. But that's a very big "If" -- one that happens not to be reality. And that is easy to prove. Even a single mistaken "factual adornment" -- and there are many mistaken ones -- undermines your thesis.

 

[Ritajanice]

@St. SteVen said.

Too bad there is no standard for interpretation.
You can make it say whatever you want and then declare your words as truth.

Scriptures are a gift, made to be shared—something that may be unfamiliar to you. ???
Jesus understood this,

Luke 10:26 NIV
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”


RJ, asks, when members start telling us we’re in error, should we rather not check out what they say with the word?

I mean, they could be right, rather than take umbrage over what they say...not just talking about you Brother, I mean all of us in general.

I also think there is a way to tell someone they “ maybe” in error...what do you think?

 

[Ritajanice]

@RedFan said.

But the TEXT does not originate from God Himself. The MESSAGE that the text writers were inspired to write does. If the TEXT originated from Him, Bible stories would never contradict each other. Yet they do.


RJ, says...are you talking about the text in the Bible?

Are you saying , that those who were inspired to write the Bible, made mistakes when writing it all down?

 

[St. SteVen]

@St. SteVen ..Bible-thumpers


What’s a Bible thumper?

I like how @RedFan defined it in post #555

I will let @St.SteVen speak for himself, but I'm ready to offer a definition of "bible thumper" if you care to hear it. To me the phrase means one who looks to the Book rather than to the God who inspired it as the sole source of knowledge of God, and uses their interpretation of the Book to beat down dissenters who dare claim a different source of knowledge of God.

It's mostly an attitude thing. Here's what Got Questions has to say.

Bible-thumper is a mildly derogatory term for someone who is deemed overly zealous in his or her Christian faith, especially if the zeal is attended by a “preachy” attitude. The dictionary.com definition of Bible-thumper is “an evangelist or other person who quotes the Bible frequently, especially as a means of exhortation or rebuke.”

The first use of the term Bible-thumper traces back to the early 1920s. The timing makes sense. Fundamentalism was on the rise, having been formalized in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. The Fundamentalists were conservative Christians who were concerned that the moral values of society were being eroded by modernism and a disregard for Scripture. The Fundamentalists refuted liberal, “higher criticism” theologians who denied the literalness and reliability of the Bible. When liberal Christians embraced Darwinism as the best explanation for all life on earth, Fundamentalist preachers, teachers, and scholars united in calling the church to hold firm to the “fundamentals of the Christian faith.” The response of the secular world was dismissive: such backward preachers were nothing but wild-eyed, pulpit-pounding “Bible-thumpers.” (more at source)


[

 

[Johann]

But the TEXT does not originate from God Himself. The MESSAGE that the text writers were inspired to write does. If the TEXT originated from Him, Bible stories would never contradict each other. Yet they do.

I agree that "IF the text originates from God Himself" it would be factually accurate down to the last jot and tittle. But that's a very big "If" -- one that happens not to be reality. And that is easy to prove. Even a single mistaken "factual adornment" -- and there are many mistaken ones -- undermines your thesis.

Your thesis has been fully exposed.


Scripture is "God-breathed" and authoritative:

2 Timothy 3:16 (Lexham Bible): "All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness."
The word theopneustos ("God-breathed") emphasizes that all Scripture, not just the overarching message, comes from God. This means that the entire text, in its original manuscripts, was divinely inspired. It wasn’t just the general message that was inspired, but the very words themselves.
The claim of factual errors in Scripture conflicts with the character of God:

Titus 1:2: "In hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began."
If God is truth and cannot lie, it is inconsistent to say that He would inspire texts that contain errors. The Bible portrays God as perfectly truthful, and therefore, the words He inspired would also be free from factual errors.
Jesus affirmed the authority of Scripture down to the smallest detail:

Matthew 5:18: "For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one iota, not one dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."
Jesus Himself emphasized that not even the smallest letter (iota) or stroke of a letter would pass away from the Law until it was fulfilled. This shows that the precision of Scripture matters and that Jesus upheld the accuracy of the text, down to its smallest parts.
Alleged contradictions can often be harmonized:

Apparent contradictions in Scripture are often the result of differences in perspective, context, or purpose among the biblical writers. These are not contradictions but complementary accounts that provide a fuller understanding of the events. For instance, the Gospels may report the same event with slight variations, but these variations enhance the richness of the narrative rather than undermine its accuracy.
Example: The resurrection accounts in the four Gospels. Although the number of women visiting the tomb differs, the core fact of the resurrection remains the same. These differences highlight different aspects of the same event, rather than present factual errors.
The Bible's historical and factual accuracy is well-supported:

Archaeological discoveries and historical research have repeatedly confirmed the accuracy of biblical records. For instance, the existence of ancient cities like Jericho, the Hittite civilization, and Pontius Pilate were once questioned by critics but have been validated by external evidence.
Isaiah 40:8: "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever."
This verse affirms that God’s Word endures and remains authoritative across time, implying that it is trustworthy and without error in its entirety.
Scripture’s unity over centuries points to divine authorship:

The Bible was written over a span of more than 1,500 years by about 40 different authors from various backgrounds. Despite this, it maintains remarkable consistency and unity in its message about God, sin, salvation, and the Messiah. This coherence, despite the diverse authorship and time span, strongly suggests divine oversight and inspiration.
In summary, to claim that the text of Scripture contains factual errors or contradictions undermines the clear biblical teaching about the nature of God and His Word. God, who is truth, inspired the entirety of Scripture, and the Bible remains free from error in its original form. What some perceive as contradictions are often resolvable through careful study of the context and purpose of the passages in question. Therefore, the assertion that factual "adornments" invalidate the inspiration of Scripture is not consistent with the biblical understanding of divine inspiration.

In these last days, there is a growing attempt to undermine the authority of written Scripture. Casting doubts, not going to work to those steadfast in the written word and study to show themselves approved.

J.

 

[Ritajanice]

@St. SteVen said.

It's mostly an attitude thing. Here's what Got Questions has to say.


I 100% agree that’s its an attitude thing, plus pride/ ego play there part, do you think?

 

[Ritajanice]

Scripture isn’t God, it was written by men under the influence of the Spirit, they were inspired by the Spirit to write, imo, which makes it prone to mistakes, ?

God is a Living Spirit, the Holy Spirit is Gods messenger, who witnesses Gods truth to our heart/ spirit.then what I believe the Spirit to be witnessing to my spirit, I check it out with scripture.

Does anyone else do this?

What do others think?

I mean not everything is in the written word is it?

I went and swept my neighbours pathway today as it was covered with leaves, which are slippery , she could have slipped on those leaves and hurt herself...was that an act of kindness from me or was that an act of kindness from God, I’d say the latter.

 

[St. SteVen]

RJ, asks, when members start telling us we’re in error, should we rather not check out what they say with the word?

I mean, they could be right, rather than take umbrage over what they say...not just talking about you Brother, I mean all of us in general.

I also think there is a way to tell someone they “ maybe” in error...what do you think?

Well said.
The member in question is obviously on a campaign against anything I post.
Purpose being to warn others not to take my words as being worth considering.

The accusatory word "error" aimed at another member is nothing short of judgmental.
No one will understand that as loving correction.

Oftentimes I will use the phrase, "What do you make of this?" when presenting a challenging scripture to consider.
I let the reader draw their own conclusions. They are free to accept or reject what I shared.

Any post that begins with YOU ARE IN ERROR... may not even be worth reading.

[

 

[Lizbeth]

You mention "another scripture which testifies about the scriptures" (I assume 2 Tim. 3:16). Clearly Paul was referring to the OT in that verse, not the NT. Was he correct? I happen to believe he was -- not because he said so (that would be circular reasoning; the Bible is not self-proving!), but because it is evident from even a cursory reading that the OT was inspired, useful for all the things that Paul mentions.

Like you, I believe 100% of the OT was "written by prophets and holy men of God." But authorship by such persons neither nullifies nor ensures that their words were "God-breathed," so I don't know why you bother to comment on their status. The Scriptures in question are "God-breathed" on their merits, holiness of the authors aside.

That said, "God-breathed" does not mean "factually inerrant." We know this because there are errors. That's the human element creeping in. God would not let His ultimate message be misstated, but the factual adornments in which the authors chose to couch their stories are another matter.

I mentioned holy men of God because those are the words of that scripture. Keep in mind that there are prophecies in the NT too. And not all prophetic words are related to the future but are God's timeless truth being spoken. The whole bible is a prophetic word.

Maybe you'd like to lay out what it is you are trying to say and why......and bring evidence to support it so we can actually discuss it. Up to now you and Steven just make insinuations against scripture that bring it into doubt. This makes your motives doubtful in my mind. I dont' see a willingness to discuss openly here but only a willingness to control the discussion in order to have it on your terms.

Either make your point or don't. If you don't, all you are doing is casting aspersions on God's holy writ. Not something I'd want to have to explain to the Almighty on judgment day if I were in your shoes.

 

[RedFan]

It was Jesus who said scripture cannot be broken. And His word is not an opinion, but the word of God.

Actually, it was the author of the gospel of John who said that Jesus said scripture cannot be broken. Did that author accurately record Jesus's actual words? Maybe. Did Jesus move his pen across the parchment? No. John's words are his own.

We can test scripture against other scripture to verify them....

Good idea! Let's start by comparing these:

Matt. 8:5-13 and Luke 7:2-10?

Mark 6:8-9 and Matt. 10:10?

Mark 2:26 and 1 Samuel 21:1-6?

Matt. 8:5-13 and Luke 7:2-10?

Matt. 8:28 and Luke 8:27?

Mark 9:1-2 and Luke 9:28?

1 Samuel 31:4 and 2 Samuel 21:12?

1 Chronicles 2:13-15 and 1 Samuel 16:10-11?

2 Kings 8:26 and 2 Chronicles 22:2?

Matt. 1:6 and Luke 3:31?

Matt. 28:9 and John 20:17?

 

[Ritajanice]

@St. SteVen said.

The member in question is obviously on a campaign against anything I post.
Purpose being to warn others not to take my words as being worth considering.


RJ, says,, Brother if you feel that way, put them on ignore, as it sounds like they are upsetting you, don’t let the enemy rob you of your peace and what you post.

By the way, I’m not accusing said member of being the enemy, just remember how the enemy can and does use another person to get to us.

It’s best just to keep posting what you believe and put those who upset your spirit onto ignore.

Just trying to help that is all.

@St. SteVen said.

Any post that begins with YOU ARE IN ERROR... may not even be worth reading.


RJ, says, if every post is like that, then I would put them on ignore for your own peace of mind, let the Lord deal with them.for only “ HE” can.

 

[St. SteVen]

I 100% agree that’s its an attitude thing, plus pride/ ego play there part, do you think?

Agree.

Scripture isn’t God, it was written by men under the influence of the Spirit, they were inspired by the Spirit to write, imo, which makes it prone to mistakes, ?

God is a Living Spirit, the Holy Spirit is Gods messenger, who witnesses Gods truth to our heart/ spirit.then what I believe the Spirit to be witnessing to my spirit, I check it out with scripture.

Agree.
Since I am on a track of re-evaluating my religious upbringing, I get a lot of grief from members who want to guard their religious upbringing.

At this point, the questions are more important to me than answers. And I don't want to be "fixed" anyway.
Beliefs are worth discussing. They aren't worth destroying each other over.

Galatians 5:14-16 NIV
For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[a]
15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

[

 

[RedFan]

I mentioned holy men of God because those are the words of that scripture. Keep in mind that there are prophecies in the NT too. And not all prophetic words are related to the future but are God's timeless truth being spoken. The whole bible is a prophetic word.

Maybe you'd like to lay out what it is you are trying to say and why......and bring evidence to support it so we can actually discuss it. Up to now you and Steven just make insinuations against scripture that bring it into doubt. This makes your motives doubtful in my mind. I dont' see a willingness to discuss openly here but only a willingness to control the discussion in order to have it on your terms.

Either make your point or don't. If you don't, all you are doing is casting aspersions on God's holy writ. Not something I'd want to have to explain to the Almighty on judgment day if I were in your shoes.

My point is that the text contains errors. Example: Matthew 27:9 mistakenly attributes the story of the purchase of the potters’ field to Jeremiah rather than Zechariah.

That's not Matthew's only slip-up. In Matt. 23:35 Matthew confuses two Zechariahs, the prophet Zechariah who was the son of Berechiah (Zech. 1:1) and another who was the son of Jehoiada (2 Chron. 24:20-22):

Therefore I send you prophets, sages, and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, so that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar (Matt. 23:25 NRSV).

Clearly it was not Zechariah the prophet, son of Barachiah, who was killed in the court of the temple, but as 2 Chron. 24:20-22 plainly states, Zechariah the son of Jehoiada. Matthew was just mistaken. (Alternatively, I suppose we could conclude that Matthew accurately quoted Jesus’ words, and it was Jesus who was mistaken. That opens a different can of worms.)

Sometimes gospel authors disagreed as between themselves -- for example, disagreement on whether the Last Supper was a Passover meal as the Synoptics say (Mark 14:12, Mark 14:16-17, Matthew 26:17, Matthew 26:19-20, Luke 22:7–9, Luke 22:13-14), or was eaten the day before Passover as John says (John 13:1, John 18:28, John 19:14). BOTH CANNOT BE CORRECT!!!!

The way to handle this is (a) to concede that factual accuracy is not always found in the Scriptures, and (b) to read it for its message rather than for the trimmings of the story.

 

[Ritajanice]

@St. SteVen ....that last post to me, was very insightful, thank you.