Daniel Chapter 8 - the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy

[Douggg]

2) some or most have converted the 2300 to literal years and interpret it as an end time event... either to the time that Israel has recently become a nation in 1948 or even 1967,

I disagree. It is mostly SDA who change what the text says regarding the activities of the little horn person... 2300 "days" to being 2300 "years".

Also persons who apply "pagan" Rome and "papal" Rome in their interpretations are doing so in order to justify the notion that the little horn person in Daniel 8 is the Pope - just as SDA does.

 

[CTK]

I do understand what you are saying. I have always maintained the idea that Dan. 2:34 was about the cross of Jesus and him being the "stone" who began His Eternal kingdom at that time.
Dan. 2
[40] And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
[41] And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
[42] And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
[43] And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
[44] And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
[45] Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this matter. I trust that the Lord will continue helping me see these things more clearly, for I do not hold to the doctrines and wisdom of men, aka "church-ianity".
1 Cor. 2:[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power [Authority] of God.

On a separate topic concerning this Christian site, I don't know about you, I must use my phone for all my posting here, but now I am inundated with distracting "business ads". If this site wan't bad enough, jumping around everytime I attempt to work on a reply post, now it's next to impossible, dodging the business advertisers!!
Sadly, I perceive that my long length of time being here may be coming to an end.
Earburner

Ok, and thanks for your reply! Best wishes always!

 

[Davy]

That particular cleansing of the sanctuary of Dan.8:14 is about the future, when Jesus returns.

It is NOT about history of Maccabeus.

Those who try and claim that cleansing was back in history have removed the actual 'context' of that within those Daniel 8:9-14 verses...

Dan 8:9-14
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

Antiochus did no such thing as the above 10th verse. That is about the coming Antichrist at the very end of this world, in the generation that will see Christ's return.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Lord Jesus gave the placing of the "abomination of desolation" IDOL in the "holy place" in Jerusalem as a SIGN of the end, for the time of "great tribulation" (Matt.24:15-31). So no way was that past history.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

That above is what the coming false-Messiah/Antichrist is to do in Jerusalem at the end of this world, once he helps the Jews there build their new 3rd temple and start up old covenant sacrifices again (the Jews in Jerusalem today already have the materials ready to build their new temple, the cornerstone has even been cut decades ago).

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

That in red is about the whole subject of the Antichrist at the end of this world, from the future re-establishing of old covenant sacrifices by the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem to the transgression by the coming Antichrist of placing an IDOL abomination in the temple instead for worship, i.e., the "image of the beast" of Rev.13.

This context is what the question is about which is then answered in the next 14th verse...

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
KJV

You cannot separate the subject context and question above in verses 9-13 from the answer given in verse 14.

Isolating Dan.8:14 by itself is like someone just saying, "35", without anyone asking "what is 5 x 7?".

And the Antiochus Epiphanes of history (165 B.C.) definitely did not establish old covenant sacrifices for the Jews and help them build their 2nd temple in Jerusalem. Nor did he cast some of the host and stars to the ground; Satan did that, Rev.12:3-4, and he is coming to do it again per Rev.12:7 forward when he and his angels are cast out of heaven down to this earth for the end of this world.

What Antiochus did was to conquer Jerusalem with an army, and right then ended... the daily sacrifices of the Jews that had already been re-established after the Jews returned from their Babylon captivity. Antiochus had no part in that. Antiochus later in 165 B.C. instead sacrificed swine on the altar inside the already existing 2nd temple in Jerusalem, and then placed an IDOL abomination in worship of Zeus, and demanded that all bow to it.

The final Antichrist/false-Messiah, which is who the Daniel transgression of desolation prophecy is pointing to for the end of this world, will instead use PEACE to conquer Jerusalem, and then with the making of a covenant, he will re-establish old covenant worship and sacrifices for the Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem. And then in the middle of that covenant, per Dan.9:27, he will end... those sacrifices and instead place the "abomination of desolation" IDOL in the temple instead, and demand that all bow to it, or be killed (end of Rev.13).

 

[Davy]

I have no idea what you are saying!!! None! In fact, it would be the opposite… if anything.


Agreed.


Agreed. I really have a major problem trying to see how you understand things.

Sorry, but I do not believe what you say.

Any... TRUE Christian well understands that God's Salvation is ONLY through FAITH on the Blood of Jesus Christ sacrificed upon His cross. All other beliefs that claim to save are false.

And you have problem trying to see HOW I understand things? How could you NOT understand about that FAITH, since you claim to be a Christian per your avatar?

Acts 4:10-12
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Whom ye crucified, Whom God raised from the dead, even by Him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
KJV

 

[Earburner]

Ok, and thanks for your reply! Best wishes always!

1. Wow! That was short on reply. What are you looking for? My reply didn't line up with your thoughts??

2. While you are on this forum, are you getting Business AD pop ups on the screen of your device?

 

[CTK]

1. Wow! That was short on reply. What are you looking for? My reply didn't line up with your thoughts??

2. While you are on this forum, are you getting Business AD pop ups on the screen of your device?

Now I am confused! I took it that you were politely telling me that you did not want to continue with this discussion.

Your reply did not contradict my thoughts. - in fact, I believe you stated you had beliefs or thoughts that 2:34 was also His first coming.

Sorry if I read your reply incorrectly. No, I am not getting pop ups.

Do you want to make any comments regarding my previous post, before / should you want to continue?
Thanks.

 

[CTK]

1. Wow! That was short on reply. What are you looking for? My reply didn't line up with your thoughts??

2. While you are on this forum, are you getting Business AD pop ups on the screen of your device?

If you care to continue, perhaps you might want to comment on my thoughts mentioned in #159 - agree / disagree, alternative view or considerations, etc. As I mentioned, these and so many others offer a completely different set of interpretations from "today's accepted interpretations" that are largely based on our ability to match things to our historical records as opposed to trying to determine how they fit in with God's plan of salvation and His first coming. And when their approach fails, they throw the verse some 2000 years into the future because it can not be matched to any actor / event in those historical records.

So, if you don't mind:

1) your thoughts on 2:34, (which I believe you also think it represents His first coming),
2) that the Stone separated the iron and clay components within the feet only,
3) this symbolically represented God dividing His kingdom where the "pottery clay" will preach the Gospel to the world while the "ceramic clay" will continue to reject Him and keep to their pre-cross ways,
4) that the 10 toes existed within pagan Rome prior to the cross (Stone striking the feet),
5) that the 10 toes would be now identified as 10 horns (powers) and are now on the outside of 4th kingdom beast (not encased within the pagan Roman feet),
6) that as a result of the cross, God would set up His earthly kingdom and His Word and the Testimony of Jesus would go out into the world. And at this same time, the 10 horns and the little horn will also show themselves (outside the beast- coming out of the beast),
7) that the church would grow exponentially and the Jews would be removed from the church,
8) that pagan Rome would start its decline,
9) that Christianity will grow in power and supremency,
10) After Constantine, Chrisitianity would become the official religion of pagan Rome,
11) that pagan Rome would soon become no more around 476 AD (not immediately),
12) the church would continue to grow in great powers throughout the empire,


These, to me, are not only historical facts but also speak and connect with the verses in Daniel. So, any thoughts - pro or con is fine.

 

[Earburner]

Now I am confused! I took it that you were politely telling me that you did not want to continue with this discussion.

Your reply did not contradict my thoughts. - in fact, I believe you stated you had beliefs or thoughts that 2:34 was also His first coming.

Sorry if I read your reply incorrectly. No, I am not getting pop ups.

Do you want to make any comments regarding my previous post, before / should you want to continue?
Thanks.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I was relating to your understanding, meaning that I have also had thoughts that when Jesus first appeared in the flesh, it was at that time that the "stone" came upon the 10 toes. But that has confused my thinking, because in the dream of Neb's statue, the ten toes (East and West Europe) don't appear on the world scene until after the Roman Empire officially began in 27 BC., and then years later split into two in 395 AD.,

https://www.livescience.com/why-roman-empire-split-in-two.

To this day, the 10 toes/horns are still unknown as to who they will be, but they shall have authority with the beast for one hour, being destined and committed to burn that "fallen woman" with fire, who is shown to be "cast out" in Gal. 4.
There are only two prophetic "mothers" in all of the NT. The RCC is neither one!!

Please reread my post #142.

 

[CTK]

Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I was relating to your understanding, meaning that I have also had thoughts that when Jesus first appeared in the flesh, it was at that time that the "stone" came upon the 10 toes. But that has confused my thinking, because in the dream of Neb's statue, the ten toes (East and West Europe) don't appear on the world scene until after the Roman Empire officially began in 27 BC., and then years later split into two in 395 AD.,

https://www.livescience.com/why-roman-empire-split-in-two.

To this day, the 10 toes/horns are still unknown as to who they will be, but they shall have authority with the beast for one hour, being destined and committed to burn that "fallen woman" with fire, who is shown to be "cast out" in Gal. 4.
There are only two prophetic "mothers" in all of the NT. The RCC is neither one!!

Please reread my post #142.

Thank you for your response! Do you agree the 10 toes were in existence before the cross, after the cross and will continue until His return? Do you see the 10 toes are the same as the 10 horns and the 10 kings? Do you have a thought on the identity of the "little horn" who came out of pagan Rome after the cross? Just want to learn if any / some / all / none, etc., of the 12 comments mentioned in #167 you agree / disagree with or have an alternative to them? Thanks. It is important to learn what others see / think regarding these new interpretations that me just revealing them....

 

[TribulationSigns]

Thank you for your response! Do you agree the 10 toes were in existence before the cross, after the cross and will continue until His return? Do you see the 10 toes are the same as the 10 horns and the 10 kings? Do you have a thought on the identity of the "little horn" who came out of pagan Rome after the cross? Just want to learn if any / some / all / none, etc., of the 12 comments mentioned in #167 you agree / disagree with or have an alternative to them? Thanks. It is important to learn what others see / think regarding these new interpretations that me just revealing them....

The ten toes of the Great Image and the ten horns of the beast are the same. This doesn't refer to the first century as you believe. It also doesn't refer to 10 separate nations, kingdoms, or individuals. The number 10 signifies the fullness of power, indicating that the false prophets and christs (ten kings) will possess along with Satan in God's congregation before the Second Coming.

 

[Earburner]

Thank you for your response! Do you agree the 10 toes were in existence before the cross, after the cross and will continue until His return?

1. The Ten toes were not anything but dispersed people of tribalism, after the division of the Roman empire into the Eastern Orthodox church and the Roman Catholic church.
2. From there, the "feet" of Eastern and Western Europe was formed. From those two realms is from where the 10 toes/horns/kings shall come.

Do you see the 10 toes are the same as the 10 horns and the 10 kings?

Yes. But we shall not know who they are until the Conglomerate beast of Rev. is manifested, of which shall be a non-militaristic Global Economic Empire. The certain and sure clue of that, is the issuance of the MoB to all the world, for buying and selling.

Do you have a thought on the identity of the "little horn" who came out of pagan Rome after the cross?

There is no "little horn" now, nor is there one to come. That prophecy has been fulfilled during the latter stage of the Grecian Empire, aka the four Hellenistic kingdoms, specifically Antiochus Epiphanes of the Seleucid kingdom.

Just want to learn if any / some / all / none, etc., of the 12 comments mentioned in #167 you agree / disagree with or have an alternative to them? Thanks. It is important to learn what others see / think regarding these new interpretations that me just revealing them....

Okay. I hope what I said helps.

 

[CTK]

1. The Ten toes were not anything but dispersed people of tribalism, after the division of the Roman empire into the Eastern Orthodox church and the Roman Catholic church.
2. From there, the "feet" of Eastern and Western Europe was formed. From those two realms is from where the 10 toes/horns/kings shall come.

Yes. But we shall not know who they are until the Conglomerate beast of Rev. is manifested, of which shall be a non-militaristic Global Economic Empire. The certain and sure clue of that, is the issuance of the MoB to all the world, for buying and selling.

There is no "little horn" now, nor is there one to come. That prophecy has been fulfilled during the latter stage of the Grecian Empire, aka the four Hellenistic kingdoms, specifically Antiochus Epiphanes of the Seleucid kingdom.

Okay. I hope what I said helps.

it does and thanks for your response!

 

[Earburner]

it does and thanks for your response!

You are welcome.
I would like to add that in both that of Neb's dream, and Daniels vision(s) of the 3 beasts prior to the 4th Beast with 10HS, we must understand that all the symbolic references to the four kingdoms, that were to be coming on the earth must be accurately understood. All the beasts were chronologically progressive, as proven by Ancient History. Throughout all of it, the ten horns will be the last manifestation of the evolved 4th beast, being the Conglomerate beast of Rev. 13:2.

For one to NOT gather and correctly align the historical records of each of the previous three beasts, during their reign and world rulership, is to arrive at a false conclusion in fantasy about the 4th beast.
Case in point, today the 4th Beast is no longer the original 4th Beast of the literal Roman Empire, but has evolved into 3 additional stages, until it's 4th and FINAL manifestation, being that of the Conglomerate beast of Rev. 13:2
1. The Roman Empire split into two, which formed separatist tribalism, thus evolving into:
2. The Western Roman Catholic church and the Eastern Orthodox church, which then evolved into:
3. The Western European countries and the Eastern European countries, which have evolved into NATO, and now the European Union, which shall evolve into it's last and final manifestation:
4. a Global Economic Empire, of which shall appoint 10 horns, for the purpose of burning the whore (MBTG) with fire ( Rev. 17:16, 18:8), which is Jerusalem (Zionist Israel) that now is. Gal. ch. 4

 

[CTK]

You are welcome.
I would like to add that in both that of Neb's dream, and Daniels vision(s) of the 3 beasts and the 4th Beast with 10HS, we must understand that all the symbolic references to the four kingdoms that were to be coming on the earth must be accurately understood that they were chronologically progressive, as proven by Ancient History. Throughout all of it, the ten horns will be the last manifestation of the 5th beast, being the Conglomerate beast of Rev. 13:2.

For one to NOT gather and correctly allign the historical records of each of the previous three beasts, during their reign and world rulership, is to arrive at a false conclusion in fantasy about the 4th beast.
Case in point, the 4th Beast is no longer the original 4th Beast of the literal Roman Empire, but has morphed into 3 additional stages, until it's 4th and FINAL manifestation, being that of the Conglomerate beast of Rev. 13:2
1. The Roman Empire split into two, which formed separatist tribalism, thus morphing into:
2. The Western Roman Catholic church and the Eastern Orthodox church, which then morphed into:
3. The Western European countries and the Eastern European countries, which have morphed into NATO, and now the European Union, which shall morph into it's last and final manifestation:
4. a Global Economic Empire, of which shall appoint 10 horns, for the purpose of burning the whore (MBTG) with fire ( Rev. 17:16, 18:8), which is Jerusalem (Zionist Israel) that now is. Gal. ch. 4

Thanks again for your detailed thoughts. If you do not mind, I would like to back track a little and ask you a few questions.

1) If you agreed that 2:34 is indeed the first coming of the Messiah, then this reflects the “symbolic Stone” that strikes the feet (only) and breaks the iron and the clay within the feet. Meaning, the iron legs (pagan Rome) continue, the clay within the feet are separated - now, there is “pottery clay,” and “ceramic clay,” broken away from the iron.

Do you agree with this? And if you do agree, then I would ask if you agree that this “striking of the Stone” caused the 10 toes to also be freed up from within pagan Rome?

 

[Douggg]

1) If you agreed that 2:34 is indeed the first coming of the Messiah, then this reflects the “symbolic Stone” that strikes the feet (only) and breaks the iron and the clay within the feet.

in what part of the vision that Nebuchadnezzar had, represents the kingdom of God in Daniel 2:44 ? You have other parts of the statue image representing human kingdoms - so what represents God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 ?

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Why do Christians continue to pray in the Lord's prayer - Thy kingdom come ?

The Lord’s Prayer​

Our Father who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us,
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom and the power, and the glory,
forever and ever.

 

[Earburner]

The ten toes of the Great Image and the ten horns of the beast are the same. This doesn't refer to the first century as you believe. It also doesn't refer to 10 separate nations, kingdoms, or individuals. The number 10 signifies the fullness of power, indicating that the false prophets and christs (ten kings) will possess along with Satan in God's congregation before the Second Coming.

If we take that approach about the 10 horns on the 4th beast, then what should the historical record say about the 2nd beast with 2 horns of a Ram, and the 3rd beast, which had 1 horn notable horn?

Your theory is not applicable to anything symbolic about horns on a beast, no matter how many or how few.
History proves that the number of horns on all the beasts are to be interpreted as being literal (edit: in number).

 

[TribulationSigns]

If we take that approach about the 10 horns on the 4th beast, then what should the historical record say about the 2nd beast with 2 horns of a Ram, and the 3rd beast, which had 1 horn notable horn?

Second beast with two horns of a ram? Try to learn how to quote Scripture, please.

Third beast with one notable horn? Try to learn how to quote Scripture, please.

Once you do that, I will talk.

Your theory is not applicable to anything symbolic about horns on a beast, no matter how many or how few.

It is because you do not have spiritual discerned. You need to learn how to compare Scripture with Scripture to find God's definition for the horn in His Word.

History proves that the number of horns on all the beasts are to be interpreted as being literal.

Really? Literal as the "literal" horn? What is God's definition of the horn in Scripture?

 

[Earburner]

Second beast with two horns of a ram? Try to learn how to quote Scripture, please.

Third beast with one notable horn? Try to learn how to quote Scripture, please.

Once you do that, I will talk.

Evidently, you know the KJV scriptures that I paraphrased. You are fully knowledgable of the scripture I pointed to. As I, you are not a new babe in Christ.

It is because you do not have spiritual discerned. You need to learn how to compare Scripture with Scripture to find God's definition for the horn in His Word.

LoL, I am not one who is a "Literalist Christian", who discerns the Bible by it's literal words at face value. I am fully functional by the counsel of the Holy Spirit through Paul, who explained it in 1 Cor. ch. 2...."We have the mind of Christ". Are you using the mind of Christ, "comparing spiritual things with spiritual", or or are you interpreting scripture through your own mind, the "natural man", aka the "man of sin"?
1 Cor. 2:5 Your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men [church-ianity], but in the power [Authority] of God.

Really? Literal as the "literal" horn? What is God's definition of the horn in Scripture?

Even in that, you took my use of the word "literal", literally. We both know that "horns" are SYMBOLIC of kings and kingdoms.
Please see my edit in post #176
Stop trying to deflect.

 

[Earburner]

Thanks again for your detailed thoughts. If you do not mind, I would like to back track a little and ask you a few questions.

1) If you agreed that 2:34 is indeed the first coming of the Messiah, then this reflects the “symbolic Stone” that strikes the feet (only) and breaks the iron and the clay within the feet. Meaning, the iron legs (pagan Rome) continue, the clay within the feet are separated - now, there is “pottery clay,” and “ceramic clay,” broken away from the iron.

Do you agree with this? And if you do agree, then I would ask if you agree that this “striking of the Stone” caused the 10 toes to also be freed up from within pagan Rome?

Like I said in a previous post, I comprehend what you are saying, and that it is worthy to understand "miry" pottery clay, as opposed to "ceramic clay", as would be he who would enter into a potter's house with a "rod of iron", smashing all the pots that have become "ceramic clay".
So yes, by that interpretation of the forms of clay, it's easy to see the smashing of the ten toes by the "stone cut without hands" causing division, and not world peace, as that of Nimrod in Gen. 11:4

So then, my delemna has been in which of the three comings of Christ shall it take place? (Yes, there are three comings of Christ: 1. in mortal flesh; 2. by His Holy Spirit, or in 3. His sudden and Immortal appearance from Heaven in flaming fire.)
I am presently perceiving that it is by all three of his "comings". If so, then Jesus the "stone", began His "smashing" in His first appearance.
Such thinking would be in line with Isa. 55:8-9 and 1 Cor. 2:16.

 

[CTK]

Like I said in a previous post, I comprehend what you are saying, and that it is worthy to understand "miry" pottery clay, as opposed to "ceramic clay", as would be he who would enter into a potter's house with a "rod of iron", smashing all the pots that have become "ceramic clay".
So yes, by that interpretation of the forms of clay, it's easy to see the smashing of the ten toes by the "stone cut without hands" causing division, and not world peace, as that of Nimrod in Gen. 11:4

So then, my delemna has been in which of the three comings of Christ shall it take place? (Yes, there are three comings of Christ: 1. in mortal flesh; 2. by His Holy Spirit, or in 3. His sudden and Immortal appearance from Heaven in flaming fire.)
I am presently perceiving that it is by all three of his "comings". If so, then Jesus the "stone", began His "smashing" in His first appearance.
Such thinking would be in line with Isa. 55:8-9 and 1 Cor. 2:16.

Thank you! Yes, it would definitely be at His first coming. It would only be at His first coming where the purpose would be to break apart those of His people that He could mold, to go out into the world and preach the gospel.

So, that means the 10 toes (which were not struck), but were also freed up from being encased within the feet of pagan Rome would now (Chapter 7) be found on the outside of the beast “coming out of” it. Only to be followed by this little horn fellow.

Meaning, pottery clay and the 10 toes, now referred to as 10 horns, were present right after the cross. The little horn would also be present after the cross (coming out of the beast).

Consequently, these verses are not end time events, but they will continue until the end of time.

1) the clay and the 10 toes / 10 horns were present both BEFORE and AFTER the cross, while the little horn came OUT OF the beast AFTER the cross.

Does this make any sense to you? Can you see this in these verses / prophecies?

Thanks.