When Jesus Came out the Grave, he was Born Again.

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marks

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God does not make copies of himself.
This statement shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what trinitarians believe. We would agree with you completely, God does not make copies of Himself. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are eternal. The Son, Whom we know in the Old Testement primarily in the Angel of the LORD, Who is often called YHWH, incarnated into human flesh. That is to say that the Holy Spirit conceived a baby in the virgin Mary, and the Spirit born in that child is Jesus Christ Himself, often called YHWH in the Old Testament. He promised that He alone would save us, and that is exactly what He did.

You should listen to Micheal Reeves teach concerning God and Trinity. Here is one:


Much love!
 
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J

Johann

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This statement shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what trinitarians believe. We would agree with you completely, God does not make copies of Himself. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are eternal. The Son, Whom we know in the Old Testement primarily in the Angel of the LORD, Who is often called YHWH, incarnated into human flesh. That is to say that the Holy Spirit conceived a baby in the virgin Mary, and the Spirit born in that child is Jesus Christ Himself, often called YHWH in the Old Testament. He promised that He alone would save us, and that is exactly what He did.

You should listen to Micheal Reeves teach concerning God and Trinity. Here is one:


Much love!
This is beautiful Marks.

J.
 
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Brakelite

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You did not provided logical or truthful evidence B. You are making the same gross mistake and producing the same faulty foundation as many others before you of equating God Almighty, the Father of Jesus, as the same exact being. And you use for example, Isaiah as your reference scripture....The LORD of God does not equate to lord Jesus for example. The 'first and the last' mean quite different things' for God and his Son. The former One is for creation as in genesis and more, and the latter is very specific for the first and the last human being ever to be raised from the dead, he is the first born of the new 'creation'....

The OT reflected and forecasted God Almighty's future spokesperson and perfect expression in purpose for mankind's salvation, through a human being created and SENT to save the world. He was God's expression as John wrote...they are NOT the same being at all as you indicated so strongly in your two posts.
You are right, the Father and the Son are not the same. How could they be? Of course they ate separate individuals. Jesus didn't pray to Himselfamen He was here, as some facetiously suggest.
Your main issue is in accepting the pre-incarnation begotten nature of the Son. You aren't alone. Even some trinitarians are confused on that point.
But as I said previously, there are several clear cut texts that speak of the Father sending His only begotten Son to this world to become a man. Not a created Son like the angels...not an adopted son like us, but begotten in the express image of the Father, having life given Him by the Father. "Just as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given the Son to have life in Himself". It is the same life of the Father that He gave to the Son. That is divine life. It had creative power. That life made the Father and Son equal in nature and character. They were not equal in rank, even Jesus saying "My Father is greater than I", and, saying of the Father, "My God and your God". But whatever we make of the union of Father and Son, we can be assured that the relationship is a literal familial relationship...not metaphorical or symbolic. Jesus is truly the begotten of the Father, His Son, in every sense of the word, and thus also, because He had the exact same nature as His Father, He is also truly God in the highest sense, because He is the Son of God. His Sonship is the greatest evidence to His divinity and true identity. As I said, John's gospel was written to prove that very point in a social milieu that had birthed numerous opposing opinions. Clearly John hasn't convinced you yet.
 

bro.tan

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This statement was made by one of Jesus disciples named Thomas. The power of this statement blows by the average Christian like a jumbo jet.
It was made after Jesus had been raised from the grave after his death on the cross. (John 20:19-28) (v.19)" Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, peace be unto you. (v.20) And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. (v.24) But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Did-y-mus, was not with them when Jesus came. (v.25) The other disciples therefore said unto him, we have seen the Lord. But he saith unto them, except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and trust my hand into his side, I will not believe." Now that's a reasonable statement Thomas made, saying he'll believe it when he sees it. (v.26) "And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, peace be unto you. (v.27) Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing." Then Thomas made one of the most over looked statements in the bible, when he said unto Jesus (v.28) "MY LORD AND MY GOD".

Jesus after his resurrection from the dead, he was born again and was returning to his former glory, God. (John 17:5) "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." Yes, with thee before the world was. That's why after Jesus was raised from the dead he made this statement. (Mat. 28:18) And Jesus came and spake unto them saying, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." It's hard for some people to understand that Jesus came through the Virgin Mary in the flesh, but he has always existed as a spirit being.
 

Brakelite

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And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” John 17:3 Christ refers to His Father as “the only true God”. He did not say though that He, as God’s Son, was not God, neither did He say that only His Father is God or only His Father should be called God. He is simply referring to His Father as the great source of all. Christ is also saying of Himself that He, as a Son, is a distinct individual from His Father.

It was the same when the young man came to Jesus saying to Him “Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?” (Mark 10:17). Jesus replied “…Why callest thou me good? there is none good, but God". He wasn't denying His own divinity. It was just as though He was saying to this man “If you accept that I am good – and it is true that only God is good - then are you acknowledging me as whom I say I am – the Son of God? "

The Scriptures also tell us
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" Philippians 2:5-6
If Christ had been less than God or someone other than God, then He could not have considered Himself as equal with God. This equality is the result of His Sonship with God. Here again we see two divine personalities. One personality is “God” while the other is “Christ Jesus”. Here we are also told that Christ, in His pre-existence, was in the “form of God”. As well as in character, this would be in outward appearance. This is why God could say to Him, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness” (Genesis 1:26). The Greek word translated “form” is morphe. The only other place it is used in the Bible is where Mark wrote that Jesus, on the road to Emmaus, “appeared in another form [morphe]” to two of His followers (Mark 16:12, see also Luke 24:16). William Tyndale translated this verse in Philippians as “Which beynge in the shape of god and thought it not robbery to be equall with god.” Philippians 2:6 Tyndale’s translation 1525
God must have a “shape”. If He didn’t have a shape then there would have been no point in Jesus saying “And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape". John 5:37

Jesus identified Himself with the one true God. This is when He said to the Jews “… Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am". John 8:58
The Jews knew exactly what Jesus was claiming. They knew He had identified Himself with the One who had spoken to Moses from the burning bush.
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.” Exodus 3:14-15
Christ was indeed the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He was the God of the Jews. He was their spiritual rock that was with them in the wilderness (1 Corinthians 10:1-4). He is Jehovah (Isaiah 12:2). Now though, in human flesh, He was standing before His people as their God. Unfortunately they failed to recognise Him as such. They would only have applied this appellation (the I AM) to God – and they certainly did not regard Jesus as such. This is why the Scriptures record that they took up stones to throw at Him (see John 8:59). It is also why John wrote in the prologue to His Gospel “.” John 1:11

It was Philip who said to Jesus “Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us”. Jesus could have replied saying “Sorry, I cannot do that Philip. No one can see the Father and live”. Instead He replied “… Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” John 14:9-10 In these words of Jesus there can be sensed an element of surprise. The disciples had confessed Him to be the Son of God (Matthew 14:33, 16:16, John 1:49). They also knew He claimed to be the Son of God (Matthew 16:16-17, John 5:18, John 9:35). They knew too that this was what the Scribes and Pharisees held against Him (John 5:18). They would even have known that this had been the testimony of God Himself (Matthew 3:17, 17:5). They still though, so it seems, had failed to recognise His true identity. It was just as though Jesus was saying to them, “Are you saying that even though I have been with you for over 3 years you still don’t know who I really am?” Christ then said “Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.” John 14:11 Christ’s words are again the reiteration of the great truth that He spoke to the Jews when He said “I and my Father are one.” John 10:30


God has never explained the oneness of existence between Himself and His Son. It is a mystery known only to divinity. This is why we must never attempt to explain it, and for which reason I cannot go along with the creeds notions that attempt to do such. I can see clearly 3 divine persons comprising the Godhead throughout the scriptures, but not how they are one. Even if God did provide an explanation, it would probably be beyond our comprehension to understand it. Can the finite comprehend the infinite? The Jews certainly realised though what Jesus was claiming. John recorded (this was after Jesus had said that He and His Father were one)
Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” John 10:31-33
There can be no mistaking as to what the Jews understood Jesus to be saying. It was that He was God (theos). To many of the Jews, particularly the Scribes and the Pharisees, this was “blasphemy”. If Christ had not been God then they would have been correct. The same reaction came when Jesus healed the impotent man on the Sabbath. John recorded (another of the signs to show that Christ was the Son of God)....
And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.” John 5:16-18

We need to remember that John wrote his Gospel with the intent of proving Christ to be the Son of God (John 20:31) – which terminology means that Christ is God (John 1:1). We can see therefore why the Holy Spirit led this Gospel writer to select these discussions that Jesus had with the Jews. They tell us so much. They tell us how the Jews understood Christ’s words. Jesus though had not made Himself God. His existence as a separate person from God was by the pleasure of the Father (Colossians 1:19). The Jews called God their Father. They must have realised therefore that Jesus was not claiming this in the same sense as they were claiming it else they would not have condemned Him for it. They must have understood Him to be claiming God as His Father in a very literal sense. This is why they said He was making Himself equal with God. Jesus did not say they had misunderstood His words. In personality He was not the one true God (the Father) but He was manifesting God in the flesh. It is no wonder therefore that God led the prophet Isaiah to prophecy of the coming Messiah “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” Isaiah 9:6
 

APAK

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Nonsense! The Bible is replete with the wonderful truth that our Creator God YHWH did Himself take on a human body. It's truly sad that you do not see this.

The only confusion is when some refuse to believe the Scriptures which clearly show Jesus to be our Creator God.

Much love!
It's ridiculous to say the infathonable creator God became a human being now isn't it.

So the creator of the ant farm became an ant himself....really
 

marks

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It's ridiculous to say the infathonable creator God became a human being now isn't it.
That's not a valid argument. If you are down to ridicule, maybe it's time to let it go. It's not ridiculous to believe the Bible, now, isn't it?

Much love!
 
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APAK

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That's not a valid argument. If you are down to ridicule, maybe it's time to let it go. It's not ridiculous to believe the Bible, now, isn't it?

Much love!
Using the term ridulous now means ridiculing you...please..get over it..

Want some cheese with that wine.

Typical marks when he's at a loss for having a mature conversation.
 

marks

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Using the term ridulous now means ridiculing you...please..get over it..

Want some cheese with that wine.

Typical marks when he's at a loss for having a mature conversation.
As it typical for you, when I point to an invalid argument, you get all personal over it. You used the word ridiculous as your argument against the incarnation . . . it's ridiculous . . . you said.

It's ridiculous to say the infathonable creator God became a human being now isn't it.

So the creator of the ant farm became an ant himself....really
And I answered that if you are using ridicule . . . well you know exactly what I said, regardless of your word games now.

Which doesn't help your argument either, by the way.

Much love!
 

APAK

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As it typical for you, when I point to an invalid argument, you get all personal over it. You used the word ridiculous as your argument against the incarnation . . . it's ridiculous . . . you said.


And I answered that if you are using ridicule . . . well you know exactly what I said, regardless of your word games now.

Which doesn't help your argument either, by the way.

Much love!
Look marks stop trying to confuse the simple truth with words like l'm presenting an invalid argument ..or that does not help my argument as some type of strawman knot you are attempting to create andt shore up.

Let me attempt to get through all this unnecessary confusion you've created with this scriptural fact as if it's not clear enough already.

The 1st Adam was created without any divine attributes or characteristics, whilst the 2nd and final Adam was also created, specifically to reveal God and his grace for our salvation...thus a quickening spirit. Two Adams, both created for two different purposes...

If you cannot wrap your head around that simpld truth, then I cannot help you.

And then to complicate these two Adamic views with more confusion is your own doing not mine.
 

marks

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Look marks stop trying to confuse the simple truth with words like l'm presenting an invalid argument .
You are the one who wrote what you wrote, I merely pointed to it. So if you have a complaint it's with yourself. I get that you don't like it.

The 1st Adam was created without any divine attributes or characteristics, whilst the 2nd and final Adam was also created, specifically to reveal God and his grace for our salvation...thus a quickening spirit. Two Adams, both created for two different purposes...
Personally I think it would be a great idea for you to withdraw from posting on this topic until you understand the Bible better.

1 Corinthians 15:47 KJV
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Adam and Jesus do not share the same "origin", as though Jesus were likewise created. Jesus created Adam.

John 1:3 KJV
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

These are plainly stated passages with simple truths.

You pulled out the ridicule and I called you on it. Simple. The Bible says that Jesus created everything that was created, including Adam. The Bible says Adam was of the earth, and Jesus is from heaven. These are all plainly stated. You would do well to believe God's Word.

This is all very simple. Confusion comes in when you will not believe. And that's not my doing.

Much love!
 

APAK

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You are the one who wrote what you wrote, I merely pointed to it. So if you have a complaint it's with yourself. I get that you don't like it.


Personally I think it would be a great idea for you to withdraw from posting on this topic until you understand the Bible better.

1 Corinthians 15:47 KJV
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Adam and Jesus do not share the same "origin", as though Jesus were likewise created. Jesus created Adam.

John 1:3 KJV
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

These are plainly stated passages with simple truths.

You pulled out the ridicule and I called you on it. Simple. The Bible says that Jesus created everything that was created, including Adam. The Bible says Adam was of the earth, and Jesus is from heaven. These are all plainly stated. You would do well to believe God's Word.

This is all very simple. Confusion comes in when you will not believe. And that's not my doing.

Much love!
Ignorant on what an idiom is I see...

Do I have to explain everything to you...

Jesus was from above because his Father God is from above, not that Jesus was previously from heaven...I advise you.study up on the usage of idioms in the Bible
..lots of them...They are figurative expressions.

Jesus was created by God who is above....whilst the 1st Adam was from the earth....

Stop embarrassing yourself again.

So you want me to quit because you cannot respond directly to my queries...typical..keep move target posts or boundaries.

You are locked in for life in what you have been programmed to belive that is not remotely found in scripture...like the gnostic idea of a superman where ishuman as well as a god...what a pity..
 

marks

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Ignorant on what an idiom is I see...

Do I have to explain everything to you...
I realize how you deny the saying of the passage. Call it an idiom, call it an analogy, call it parable, call it anything but plain truth.

You deny the Scriptures and make personal comments, not a good showing for yourself.
..lots of them...They are figurative expressions.
deny deny deny deny deny and on it goes.

Stop embarrassing yourself again.
Hey, I'm the guy quoting the Bible and urging you to believe it. That's not embarrassing. I'd be more concerned if I were the guy denying the plain sayings of the Bible.

Jesus is from heaven. Jesus created everything that was created. Jesus pre-existed Abraham. Jesus is YHWH, to Whom every knee will bow.

This is all simple, all right there, if you would only believe.

Much love!
 
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Ritajanice

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Where in the Bible does it say Jesus was a God?
The Bible says Jesus is unique in both His person and His purpose. He wasn't just some spiritual individual during His time on earth; He was both God's Son (John 3:16) and God Himself—God in human flesh (1 Timothy 3:16). Yes, He was fully man, but He was also fully God (Colossians 2:9).
 

Runningman

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No, Jesus is the Son of GOD....Fully God and Fully Man....In John 10:30. Jesus tells us this..."I and my Father are one." This was before His crucifixion and resurrection.
I would offer you that the oneness with God that Jesus was referring to has nothing to do with Jesus actually being God himself, but rather unity.

Jesus commented on this same oneness in John 17:20-23, praying that his disciples would have the same oneness with God that he does and with one another so they may be brought to complete unity. They're on the same team, fighting the same fight, but none of them are the same person as each other or God. I hope that makes sense.

John 17 (NIV)
20“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one23I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
 

APAK

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Where in the Bible does it say Jesus was a God?
The Bible says Jesus is unique in both His person and His purpose. He wasn't just some spiritual individual during His time on earth; He was both God's Son (John 3:16) and God Himself—God in human flesh (1 Timothy 3:16). Yes, He was fully man, but He was also fully God (Colossians 2:9).
The last two scripture verses you quoted do not say Jesus is God in the flesh at all.

Where are you getting this outlandish understanding from?
 

Runningman

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I just read your comments... and I thought I might ask you a question (athough I have not looked into this matter myself). Is it possible that the response from Thomas was indeed purposeful because prior to the cross, I do not believe anyone truly understand He was God on earth, but only after the cross, He would be revealed as both our Lord and our God?
That's a good question. I certainly agree that no one thought Jesus was God before the cross, but there is good evidence that, at least in the Bible, they kept on believing Jesus isn't God as well. To the best of our knowledge, the letters and books of the Bible were actually written, sometimes decades, after the original events. No one seems to have wrote in Jesus as being God in hindsight. They actually kept on referring to Jesus as a man in many cases.

Paul said this when he remembered Jesus and wrote about him to Timothy. It looks like Paul didn't believe Jesus was God.

1 Tim 2
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
 
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APAK

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You are the one who wrote what you wrote, I merely pointed to it. So if you have a complaint it's with yourself. I get that you don't like it.


Personally I think it would be a great idea for you to withdraw from posting on this topic until you understand the Bible better.

1 Corinthians 15:47 KJV
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Adam and Jesus do not share the same "origin", as though Jesus were likewise created. Jesus created Adam.

John 1:3 KJV
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

These are plainly stated passages with simple truths.

You pulled out the ridicule and I called you on it. Simple. The Bible says that Jesus created everything that was created, including Adam. The Bible says Adam was of the earth, and Jesus is from heaven. These are all plainly stated. You would do well to believe God's Word.

This is all very simple. Confusion comes in when you will not believe. And that's not my doing.

Much love!
An extremist view of Christ..Jesus created the universe is a nonsense gnostic style view.

Try again...
.
 

Runningman

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I disagree I think you creating to much within your own thoughts on that situation. All the things that Jesus had to go through, plus healing people, etc. Thomas finally believe who Jesus was. Remember Jesus says this in John . 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Peter was one the apostles that believe from the start, some of the other apostles didn't. Let's go into Matthew 16: 13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Thank you for your comments, but I would offer you that in the preceding verses, Jesus identified who the Father as the only God. So whether or not Jesus literally pre-existed in some form or another prior to a being a man doesn't necessarily mean that he would have pre-existed as God before the world was created unless you are proposing that Jesus is an incarnation of the Father in the modalist's sense of the word.

Peter astutely did point out that Jesus is the Messiah and Son of the Living God, confirmed by Jesus as being great answer it seems. So I would be inclined to go with what Peter said when identifying Jesus rather than what Thomas said.
 

Ritajanice

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It is the very fact that Jesus was fully human and fully God that makes Jesus our savior (Titus 2:13-14). I hope that this helps you to believe and understand this important truth about Jesus.

13while we wait for the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. 14He gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to cleanse for himself a people for his own possession, eager to do good works

Jesus Christ created this world and everything in it. He also created many other worlds. He did so through the power of the priesthood, under the direction of our Heavenly Father. God the Father said, “Worlds without number have I created; … and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten” (Moses 1:33).



Proverbs 15:1-33 ESV / 25 helpful votes

A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger. The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouths of fools pour out folly. The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good. A gentle tongue is a tree of life, but perverseness in it breaks the spirit. A fool despises his father's instruction, but whoever heeds reproof is prudent. ..
 
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