HE CHOSE US

[David in NJ]

David, you may not think you're a calvinist, but you are IF you agree with that particular doctrine.

But your post above has conflict.
First you said this:
This does not negate that God chooses us BEFORE we ever decided to come to Him.

So if God chose us before we ever decided to come to Him,
HOW does this confirm our having free will IF HE had to choose us?

THEN you stated this:
Of His Own Will He brought us forth by the word of truth,

Then you posted some scripture which, quite frankly, I don't know what it has to do with anything.

So which is it?
Did we come to believe in God of our own FREE WILL....
or
Did God choose us BEFORE we ever decided to come to Him?

So if God chose us before we ever decided to come to Him, HOW does this confirm our having free will IF HE had to choose us?

SIMPLE; AFTER God calls us we retain our free will to receive HIM or turn away.

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. - John1:12
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So which is it?
Did we come to believe in God of our own FREE WILL....
or
Did God choose us BEFORE we ever decided to come to Him?

It is BOTH

ONE comes BEFORE the other = Genesis = Gospel

ALWAYS

 

[Biblepaige]

1. Show some verses that state that God chose us before He created anything.

Ephesians 1:4

2. Did you know that your name could be blotted out of the Book of Life?

The Lambs book of eternal life? No,it cannot.

Revelation 3:5
The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life.

The one who conquers will not be blotted out.
That means that a person CAN be blotted out.

Exodus 32:32
But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written.”

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

God is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish...
which means that we can perish, in which case our name will surely be removed from the Book of Life.

 

[Biblepaige]

It's shocking to think some credit John Calvin as God.

When all those who taught the same as John taught what God said in his word.

In the beginning was the word.
And the word was with God.
And the word was God.


And the word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Absolute truth.Waaaayyyyy before John and his predecessors.

 

[Johann]

The Lambs book of eternal life? No,it cannot.

Correct.

Eph 1:13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth—the good news of your salvation—in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise,
Eph 1:14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory.


Ye were sealed (esphragisthēte). First aorist passive indicative of sphragizō, old verb, to set a seal on one as a mark or stamp, sometimes the marks of ownership or of worship of deities like stigmata (Gal_6:17). Marked and authenticated as God’s heritage as in Eph_4:30. See note on 2Co_1:22 for the very use of the metaphor here applied to the Holy Spirit even with the word arrabōn (earnest).

5) "Ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise" (esphragisthete to pneumati tes epangelias to hagio) "With the Holy Spirit of promise." This seal is heaven's stamp of eternal ownership of the sealed property, 2Ti_2:19; Eph_4:30. If salvation could ever be lost, it would have to be after the resurrection of the body of the believer; for until the redemption of the body (the purchased (paid for) possession of every believer), one is sealed. See also Rom_8:23.



Once sealed, God will not "unseal" those IN CHRIST.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

Being in control of good and evil has everything to do with our salvation. God chooses His elect, designs a plan, a journey, beginning in our mother's womb. He protects us at every step, steering us away from danger at times, preventing our death. He orchestrates specific events and people under His umbrella of His drawing power, who come into our lives to witness or minister to us; and as He guides us along this journey ultimately towards a divine appointment, nothing happens by chance coincidence, it is a sovereign,

I don't read that God chooses His elect for salvation.
God's elect are two:
1. Israel
2. All saved persons

The NT never refers to the elect as persons that were specifically chosen by God to be saved.


But HOW God elects them is what's important.

Does God just want a few to be saved?
Could you provide scripture?

My NT tells me that God desires all men to be saved.
1 Timothy 2:3-4

It tells me HOW a person could be saved:
John 3:16 WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN JESUS WILL BE SAVED
Acts 16:31 BELIEVE IN JESUS AND YOU WILL BE SAVED
Romans 10:9-10 CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH AND BELIEVE WITH YOUR HEART THAT JESUS WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD

fluid fabric of events knit together. This may take decades or a lifetime of lessons and experiences; bringing one to the point at which you begin to ask the serious questions and begin to realize that your ways that you have been following do not work. Then you are ready, He knocks and you open the door. Being that Author of our faith is just that, including all the details that lead up to it and through it and finishing it. That is sovereignty.

How does the above support the fact that God chose you from the beginning of the world?

The Buble says we are either a slave to sin and Satan or a slave to God. That doesn't sound like your free to do anything you want.

Please read the entire verse and don't only use the parts you agree with:

Romans 6:12-14
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.


The above tells a few things:
It states that we are not TO LET SIN REIGN IN OUR BODY....
This sounds like a free will action, doesn't it?

It states that we are not TO PRESENT OUR MEMBERS TO SIN...
Sounds like a free will action....to present oneself requires our desire and an action from us.

Then Paul tells WHY sin will not be master over us.
Is it because God predestinated us to either sin or not to sin?

No.
This is the reason:
We are not under the Law, but under grace.

Everything we do has consequences. We have broken God's laws. Jesus died for our sins and rise on the third and if we believe this, He liberates us from this bondage. Then we are free agents to do His will, cooperating as He prepares good works for us.

Now it sounds like you believe in free will.
Could we, like, decide what we believe and then stick to it??
Could we not be tossed to and from as Ephesians 4:14 states?

You would have to be God to know all. I am just simply stating that foreknowledge is high above our pay grade to assume His ways.

Ronald, foreknowledge is biblical.
Predestiation for salvation purposes IS NOT.

So what do you REALLY believe?

 

[GodsGrace]

Very simple-

Ephesians 1:4-5 (NIV):
“For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love, He predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will.”

Eph 1:4 For καθὼς He chose ἐξελέξατο us ἡμᾶς in ἐν Him αὐτῷ before πρὸ [the] foundation καταβολῆς of [the] world κόσμου, - ἡμᾶς to be εἶναι holy ἁγίους and καὶ blameless ἀμώμους in His presence κατενώπιον . . . . αὐτοῦ, In ἐν love ἀγάπῃ

Transliteration: pro
Morphology: Prep
Preposition
Strong's no.: G4253 (πρό)
Meaning: (a) of place: before, in front of, (b) of time: before, earlier than.


Even as he chose us in him (kathōs exelexato hēmās en autōi). First aorist middle indicative of eklegō, to pick out, to choose. Definitive statement of God’s elective grace concerning believers in Christ.
Before the foundation of the world (pro katabolēs kosmou). Old word from kataballō, to fling down, used of the deposit of seed, the laying of a foundation. This very phrase with pro in the Prayer of Jesus (Joh_17:24) of love of the Father toward the Son. It occurs also in 1Pe_1:20. Elsewhere we have apo (from) used with it (Mat_25:34; Luk_11:50; Heb_4:3; Heb_9:26; Rev_13:8; Rev_17:8). But Paul uses neither phrase elsewhere, though he has apo tōn aiōnōn (from the ages) in Eph_3:9. Here in Eph_1:3-14. Paul in summary fashion gives an outline of his view of God’s redemptive plans for the race.
Vincent.

hath chosen. or, chose out. Gr. eklegomai (S# G1586, Mar_13:20). There is a Scriptural predestination, but not to eternal destiny. Predestination is to holiness, righteousness, and true knowledge (Eph_4:24; Col_3:10). God’s sovereign choice from eternity was that His people be holy and blameless before Him. Be holy expresses the moral and spiritual state of being in the here and now—holy. Blameless is a negation of all that is blameworthy. So God’s choice from eternity was that there be a holy, blameless people in the image of His Son.

The Church thus participates in that Scriptural holiness predestinated from eternity (Cf. Rom_8:29-30; 2Pe_1:4 and notes) [LNT, fn a]. This is predestination of Divine exaltation, salvation, redemption, and restoration from the Fall, not the heartless decree of Calvinism, carried out by irresistible grace for the elect, and eternal damnation for all others (Rom_9:15 note) [LNT, fn a, retained from preliminary edition]. Deu_7:6-7; Deu_26:18-19, =2Ch_29:11, Psa_33:12; Psa_65:4; Psa_103:17; Psa_106:5; Psa_110:3; Psa_135:4, +*Isa_41:8; +*Isa_41:9; Isa_42:1; Isa_44:2; Isa_65:8-10, Zec_1:17, +*Mat_11:25; +*Mat_11:26; Mat_24:22; Mat_24:24; Mat_24:31, +*Joh_10:16; Joh_15:19; +*Joh_17:6, +*Act_13:48; Act_18:10, +*Rom_8:28; +*Rom_8:30; +*Rom_8:33; Rom_9:23-24; Rom_11:5-6; Rom_16:13, 1Th_1:4, *2Th_2:13; *2Th_2:14, +*2Ti_1:9; 2Ti_2:10, *Tit_1:1; *Tit_1:2, +*Jas_2:5, *1Pe_1:2; *1Pe_2:6; *1Pe_2:9, 2Jn_1:1, %Rev_13:8; %Rev_17:8.

This passage clearly states that God’s choosing of believers occurred before the creation of the world and was driven by His love and purpose.

2 Timothy 1:9 (NIV):
"He has saved us and called us to a holy life-not because of anything we have done but because of His own purpose and grace.

1 Peter 1:20 (NIV):
"He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake."

Although this verse refers to Christ being chosen, it aligns with the theme that God’s redemptive work, through Christ, was set in motion before the foundation of the world.

Apology for the late edit-we all are doing it.

J.

So now you've become Calvinist too?

WHAT was done before the creation of the world?
WHAT did God choose?
or
Did He choose who would be saved?

This is the verse you posted:

Ephesians 1:4-5 (NIV):
“For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love, He predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will.”

 

[GodsGrace]

SIMPLE; AFTER God calls us we retain our free will to receive HIM or turn away.

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. - John1:12
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



It is BOTH

ONE comes BEFORE the other = Genesis = Gospel

ALWAYS

Can't be both David.

Please be clear.

We either have free will to choose God
or
God chose us from the beginning and we have no free will.

 

[David in NJ]

Can't be both David.

Please be clear.

We either have free will to choose God
or
God chose us from the beginning and we have no free will.

It ABSOLUTELY is BOTH and to deny it is to say and think, that you are smarter then God.

1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2Jesus invited a little child to stand among them. 3“Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoever welcomes a little child like this in My name welcomes Me.

God's Children believe every word that HE Speaks............whereas mature bible men/women stumble over the scriptures

"The fear of man is a snare...."

 

[GodsGrace]

Ephesians 1:4

Here's Ephesians 1:4.
Let's see exactly WHAT is predestined.

Ephesians 1:4
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

God chose us IN HIM.....
God chose that we would become saved IN JESUS....
God's plan was that man would follow Jesus and be saved.
IN JESUS we are saved.
Jesus said that without Him we can do nothing....John 15:5
We cannot be saved on our own but ONLY THROUGH CHRIST.

God predestinated that we would thus be holy and blameless before God
BECAUSE of our choosing to believe in Christ.
John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Jesus didn't say we should wait for God to save us because it was predestinated from the beginning of the world.
He said we MUST be born again - and then taught us HOW.
John 3:7
7“Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

And here's HOW:
John 3:36
. 36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

The Lambs book of eternal life? No,it cannot.

Well then, the bible has a big conflict, doesn't it?
Why do you think the NT is lying?
What verses do YOU have that state that a name cannot be erased from the Book of Life
when I clearly stated verses that state that it can.

 

[GodsGrace]

It ABSOLUTELY is BOTH and to deny it is to say and think, that you are smarter then God.

1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2Jesus invited a little child to stand among them. 3“Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoever welcomes a little child like this in My name welcomes Me.

God's Children believe every word that HE Speaks............whereas mature bible men/women stumble over the scriptures

"The fear of man is a snare...."

The above has nothing to do with our conversation.

Which shows me that YOU DON'T KNOW what you believe.
Sad for Christianity.

 

[GodsGrace]

It ABSOLUTELY is BOTH and to deny it is to say and think, that you are smarter then God.

1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2Jesus invited a little child to stand among them. 3“Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoever welcomes a little child like this in My name welcomes Me.

God's Children believe every word that HE Speaks............whereas mature bible men/women stumble over the scriptures

"The fear of man is a snare...."

PS
IF it's both....
HOW do you explain to a person HOW they could become saved?

 

[David in NJ]

The above has nothing to do with our conversation.

Which shows me that YOU DON'T KNOW what you believe.
Sad for Christianity.

lol

You just verified what i posted in Post #48 is 100% TRUTH

 

[Johann]

I don't read that God chooses His elect for salvation.
God's elect are two:
1. Israel
2. All saved persons

The NT never refers to the elect as persons that were specifically chosen by God to be saved.


But HOW God elects them is what's important.

Does God just want a few to be saved?
Could you provide scripture?

My NT tells me that God desires all men to be saved.
1 Timothy 2:3-4

It tells me HOW a person could be saved:
John 3:16 WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN JESUS WILL BE SAVED
Acts 16:31 BELIEVE IN JESUS AND YOU WILL BE SAVED
Romans 10:9-10 CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH AND BELIEVE WITH YOUR HEART THAT JESUS WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD


How does the above support the fact that God chose you from the beginning of the world?


Please read the entire verse and don't only use the parts you agree with:

Romans 6:12-14
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.


The above tells a few things:
It states that we are not TO LET SIN REIGN IN OUR BODY....
This sounds like a free will action, doesn't it?

It states that we are not TO PRESENT OUR MEMBERS TO SIN...
Sounds like a free will action....to present oneself requires our desire and an action from us.

Then Paul tells WHY sin will not be master over us.
Is it because God predestinated us to either sin or not to sin?

No.
This is the reason:
We are not under the Law, but under grace.


Now it sounds like you believe in free will.
Could we, like, decide what we believe and then stick to it??
Could we not be tossed to and from as Ephesians 4:14 states?

Ronald, foreknowledge is biblical.
Predestiation for salvation purposes IS NOT.

So what do you REALLY believe?

Guess the Arminians can't be right either.

Olson 2018. "What is Arminianism? A) Belief that God limits himself to give human beings free will to go against his perfect will so that God did not design or ordain sin and evil (or their consequences such as innocent suffering); B) Belief that, although sinners cannot achieve salvation on their own, without 'prevenient grace' (enabling grace), God makes salvation possible for all through Jesus Christ and offers free salvation to all through the gospel. 'A' is called 'limited providence,' 'B' is called 'predestination by foreknowledge.'"

The Achilles heel for many.

Predestination - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

lol

You just verified what i posted in Post #48 is 100% TRUTH

Sure. Right.
Excuse me, I have to go do some ironing.

 

[David in NJ]

PS
IF it's both....
HOW do you explain to a person HOW they could become saved?

EASY

Sure. Right.
Excuse me, I have to go do some ironing.

YES you do = "Make STRAIGHT the paths of the LORD.........."

 

[GodsGrace]

Guess the Arminians can't be right either.

Olson 2018. "What is Arminianism? A) Belief that God limits himself to give human beings free will to go against his perfect will so that God did not design or ordain sin and evil (or their consequences such as innocent suffering); B) Belief that, although sinners cannot achieve salvation on their own, without 'prevenient grace' (enabling grace), God makes salvation possible for all through Jesus Christ and offers free salvation to all through the gospel. 'A' is called 'limited providence,' 'B' is called 'predestination by foreknowledge.'"

The Achilles heel for many.

Predestination - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

J.

I don't know who Arminius is.
Looked up in Wikipedia about a week ago,
but he's not who I learn from.

So why is it so difficult for members on this thread (and other threads) to plainly state what they believe?
Who cares what Arminius taught?

What do YOU believe the bible teaches about predestination?

A) God is very malicious.

B) This sounds biblical.

 

[GodsGrace]

EASY

YES you do = "Make STRAIGHT the paths of the LORD.........."

LOL
YOU don't make them straight David.
You post very confusing statements.
But I certainly am not going to change your ways....

 

[GodsGrace]

EASY

YES you do = "Make STRAIGHT the paths of the LORD.........."

What do you think MAKE STRAIGHT THE PATHS OF THE LORD means?

 

[Johann]

So now you've become Calvinist too?

WHAT was done before the creation of the world?
WHAT did God choose?
or
Did He choose who would be saved?

This is the verse you posted:

Ephesians 1:4-5 (NIV):
“For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love, He predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will.”

Looks like you want to twist and pervert plain Scripture-that, or playing the Devils advocate.
And you want to severe predestination from God's salvation to mankind-deciding for God how He should, or should not deem fit to save pantas.

Predestination is one of several truths related to mankind's salvation. It is part of a theological pattern or series of related truths. It was never meant to be emphasized in isolation! Biblical truth has been given in a series of tension-filled, paradoxical pairs.

Denominationalism has tended to remove the biblical tension by emphasizing only one of the dialectical truths (predestination versus human free will; security of the believer versus perseverance of the saints; original sin versus volitional sin; sinlessness versus sinning less; instantaneously declared sanctification versus progressive sanctification; faith versus works; Christian freedom versus Christian responsibility; transcendence versus immanence).
 God's choice is not based on foreknowledge of human performance, but on His gracious character (cf. Eph. 1:7,9,11). He wishes that all (not just some special ones like the Gnostics or modern-day ultra-Calvinists) would be saved (cf. Ezek. 18:21-23,32; John 3:16-17; 1 Tim. 2:4; 4:10; Titus 2:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14). God's grace (God's character) is the theological key to this passage (cf. Eph. 1:6a, 7c, 9b), as God's mercy is the key to the other passage on predestination, Romans 9-11.
 Fallen mankind's only hope is the grace and mercy of God (cf. Isa. 53:6 and several other OT texts quoted in Rom. 3:9-18). It is crucial in interpreting these first theological chapters to realize that Paul emphasizes those things which are totally unrelated to human performance: predestination (Ephesians 1), grace (Ephesians 2), and God's eternal plan of redemption (mystery, Eph. 2:11- 3:13). This was to counterbalance the emphasis of the false teachers on human merit and pride.

The verse is correct and do look up the preposition.

Get it?

J.

 

[Johann]

I don't know who Arminius is.
Looked up in Wikipedia about a week ago,
but he's not who I learn from.

So why is it so difficult for members on this thread (and other threads) to plainly state what they believe?
Who cares what Arminius taught?

What do YOU believe the bible teaches about predestination?

A) God is very malicious.

B) This sounds biblical.

Not my problem if you don't want to read the link, most don't.

J.