When Jesus Came out the Grave, he was Born Again.

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Brakelite

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I would also add that Thomas didn't technically address Jesus as God. As to whether or not that is what Thomas meant, only God and Thomas would know. However, the Apostle John, in recording this event, didn't interpret Thomas as having addressed Jesus as God—at least not in the God Almighty sense of the word "God." This is probably because John himself didn't believe Jesus is God, which would mean he assumed Thomas didn't either.

Alternatively, Thomas didn't say "You are my Lord and God," and John's keen memory recalled this precisely and recorded it as such. There is also the matter of Jesus never having taught anyone that he is their God, and Jesus having identified their God already as the Father in John 20:17.

Given all the evidence, I personally believe Thomas just made a declaration and was possibly just jaw-dropped that Jesus was alive and well, despite bearing some seemingly severe injuries in his flesh. I would probably have said "My Lord and my God" in such a case as well. Who wouldn't?
I have rarely read so much nonsense in such a short post. The purpose of John writing His gospel, and his letters, was as an apologetic against the heresies rampant at that time, which denied the Divinity of Christ. John proved that Jesus was the pre-incarnate only begotten Son of God, Sonship that bore the greatest evidence in favour of His divinity.
 
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ChristinaL

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Born again speaks of the regeneration that comes by being baptized (immersed) into Jesus Christ, which baptized us into His death and burial, and we share His resurrection life, which is to us new life, a spirit life that wasn't there, was dead, and is given life by Christ in us.

Much love!
Amen
 

APAK

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I have rarely read so much nonsense in such a short post. The purpose of John writing His gospel, and his letters, was as an apologetic against the heresies rampant at that time, which denied the Divinity of Christ. John proved that Jesus was the pre-incarnate only begotten Son of God, Sonship that bore the greatest evidence in favour of His divinity.
Just saying bro, speaking of nonsense. You have not support for your claims. Yours as many others are comments and strong opinions based on fables and wishful thinking. It is basically preRC AND RC poison and then bought by weak spirted people over the centuries.

John wrote more that anyone else concerning the Son of God, his Father, not that he was also God himself. That would be nonsense indeed.
 

ChristinaL

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Just saying bro, speaking of nonsense. You have not support for your claims. Yours as many others are comments and strong opinions based on fables and wishful thinking. It is basically preRC AND RC poison and then bought by weak spirted people over the centuries.

John wrote more that anyone else concerning the Son of God, his Father, not that he was also God himself. That would be nonsense indeed.
While there are certain things that are not required for salvation, such as, say, belief in a Pre-trib Rapture, belief in the divinity of Jesus is absolutely required and non negotiable. And John did call Jesus God and Jesus called Himself God. I am sure you have seen the proofs many times over so I wont waste time reposting them
 

APAK

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While there are certain things that are not required for salvation, such as, say, belief in a Pre-trib Rapture, belief in the divinity of Jesus is absolutely required and non negotiable. And John did call Jesus God and Jesus called Himself God. I am sure you have seen the proofs many times over so I wont waste time reposting them
Seem 'proofs', hardly. These so-called proofs are derived from programmed religious folks who have leaned to recite them, drawn from others. They are not derived from the Father's Spirit. However, who can distinguish between the Son of God and himself.
 
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ChristinaL

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Seem 'proofs', hardly. These so-called proofs are derived from programmed religious folks who have leaned to recite them, drawn from others. They are not derived from the Father's Spirit. However, who can distinguish between the Son of God and himself.
So when John calls jesus the Word of God and God Himself, what, He was lying? Or Isaiah in 9:6 where He called Jesus Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace- that didnt come from the Father I suppose? Or When Jesus calls Himself alpha and Omega, ok now He was lying? Or Micah when he says

Micah 5:2But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. << read here, Jesus is God.

You are not saved
 

APAK

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So when John calls jesus the Word of God and God Himself, what, He was lying? Or Isaiah in 9:6 where He called Jesus Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace- that didnt come from the Father I suppose? Or When Jesus calls Himself alpha and Omega, ok now He was lying? Or Micah when he says

Micah 5:2But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. << read here, Jesus is God.

You are not saved
That is what you read in (to) scripture of course. It is your opinion and not necessarily the truth


For example. John never calls Jesus the word, and nor do other inspired writers.

And your value and understanding of salvation also seems fleeting and elusive.
 
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ChristinaL

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That is what you read in (to) scripture of course. It is your opinion and not necessarily the truth


For example. John never calls Jesus the word, and nor do other inspired writers.

And your value and understanding of salvation also seems fleeting and elusive.
In the Beginning was the Word and the Word was with God AND THE WORD WAS GOD.. Truth. Jesus is the Word, the Word was with God (Father/Holy Ghost) and the Word (Jesus) WAS GOD.

A child could understand this

John 1

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jesus created all things and no created being is a Creator

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Isaiah calling Jesus God is not my reading "too much into it". Micah saying that the coming Jesus has existed for all time is not my reading too much into it.

Ok here's another good one God speaking of Himself being crucified in Zech 12:10 is not my reading "too much into it"

Are you also calling Jesus a liar when He said He existed before Abraham and that Abraham knew Him? Abraham met the preincarnate Jesus Gen 18

Are you calling Jesus a liar when He calls HIMSELF Alpha and Omega, a title that belongs to GOD ALONE?

And the only person here who has no understanding of salvation here is YOU because Satan has filled your heart with hatred for the truth. You must believe in the Trinity to be saved. If you do not you have chosen damnation

1 John 4
1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

This means you must believe Jesus is God the Word made flesh. You cannot after all have God as a literal physical Father and not be fully man and fully God.
 

APAK

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In the Beginning was the Word and the Word was with God AND THE WORD WAS GOD.. Truth. Jesus is the Word, the Word was with God (Father/Holy Ghost) and the Word (Jesus) WAS GOD.

A child could understand this

John 1

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jesus created all things and no created being is a Creator

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Isaiah calling Jesus God is not my reading "too much into it". Micah saying that the coming Jesus has existed for all time is not my reading too much into it.

Ok here's another good one God speaking of Himself being crucified in Zech 12:10 is not my reading "too much into it"

Are you also calling Jesus a liar when He said He existed before Abraham and that Abraham knew Him? Abraham met the preincarnate Jesus Gen 18

Are you calling Jesus a liar when He calls HIMSELF Alpha and Omega, a title that belongs to GOD ALONE?

And the only person here who has no understanding of salvation here is YOU because Satan has filled your heart with hatred for the truth. You must believe in the Trinity to be saved. If you do not you have chosen damnation

1 John 4
1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

This means you must believe Jesus is God the Word made flesh. You cannot after all have God as a literal physical Father and not be fully man and fully God.
And now you must bring into my face the typical wall of scriptural ignorance and the communications ends here.

And you have achieved nothing in the process, as usual.
 

ChristinaL

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And now you must bring into my face the typical wall of scriptural ignorance and the communications ends here.

And you have achieved nothing in the process, as usual.
Reject God's truth at your peril. Satan has clouded your mind and blinded your eyes and your heart
 

APAK

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Reject God's truth at your peril. Satan has clouded your mind and blinded your eyes and your heart
If and when you meet Christ in this life or the next one, I'm sure he will tell you he already has a God. The same one I have today, as the Father's spirit attests to this within me.

Jesus said very clearly that he has a God, his Father, the same as ours.

John 20:17....
 

ChristinaL

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If and when you meet Christ in this life or the next one, I'm sure he will tell you he already has a God. The same one I have today, as the Father's spirit attests to this within me.

Jesus said very clearly that he has a God, his Father, the same as ours.

John 20:17....
If you reject the truth your only father is Satan. Repent before its too late for you
 

APAK

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If you reject the truth your only father is Satan. Repent before its too late for you
You do not know the truth or speak it. So why would anyone listen to anyone who does not know scripture and the nature of God and his Son?

You are so keen of presenting the so-called Satan to me in desperation, as you cannot speak about God in depth with love and understanding and compassion.

So why do you continue to converse with me if you think I'm possed by the devil or a devil or of Satan?

You might catch what I really have in time...Yahshua, our Christ made lord by his Father.
 
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bro.tan

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Before all things (pro pantōn). Pro with the ablative case. This phrase makes Paul’s meaning plain. The precedence of Christ in time and the preeminence as Creator are both stated sharply. See the claim of Jesus to eternal timeless existence in Joh_8:58; Joh_17:5. See also Rev_22:13 where Christ calls himself the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning (archē) and the End (telos). Paul states it also in 2Co_8:9; Php_2:6.

The first born (prōtotokos). Predicate adjective again and anarthrous. This passage is parallel to the Logos passage in John 1:1-18 and to Heb_1:1-4 as well as Php_2:5-11 in which these three writers (John, author of Hebrews, Paul) give the high conception of the Person of Christ (both Son of God and Son of Man) found also in the Synoptic Gospels and even in Q (the Father, the Son). This word (lxx and N.T.) can no longer be considered purely “Biblical” (Thayer), since it is found In inscriptions (Deissmann, Light, etc., p. 91) and in the papyri (Moulton and Milligan, Vocabulary, etc.). See it already in Luk_2:7 and Aleph for Mat_1:25; Rom_8:29. The use of this word does not show what Arius argued that Paul regarded Christ as a creature like “all creation” (pāsēs ktiseōs, by metonomy the act regarded as result). It is rather the comparative (superlative) force of prōtos that is used (first-born of all creation) as in Col_1:18; Rom_8:29; Heb_1:6; Heb_12:23; Rev_1:5. Paul is here refuting the Gnostics who pictured Christ as one of the aeons by placing him before “all creation” (angels and men). Like eikōn we find prōtotokos in the Alexandrian vocabulary of the Logos teaching (Philo) as well as in the lxx. Paul takes both words to help express the deity of Jesus Christ in his relation to the Father as eikōn (Image) and to the universe as prōtotokos (First-born).

The first born of every creature (πρωτότοκος πασῆς κτίσεως)
Rev., the first-born of all creation. For first-born, see on Rev_1:5; for creation, see on 2Co_5:17. As image points to revelation, so first-born points to eternal preexistence. Even the Rev. is a little ambiguous, for we must carefully avoid any suggestion that Christ was the first of created things, which is contradicted by the following words: in Him were all things created. The true sense is, born before the creation. Compare before all things, Col_1:17. This fact of priority implies sovereignty. He is exalted above all thrones, etc., and all things are unto (εἰς) Him, as they are elsewhere declared to be unto God. Compare Psa_89:27; Heb_1:2.

J.
Paul says in Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

If he is the first born of many brethren what would that imply? That will let you know there are more to come. Take a look at this verse in I John.

I John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Notice what's being said, "it doth not yet appear what we shall be but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is". Jesus was the first of many brethren, and those of us that walk in His law will be considered as family members. We will be able to see Him in His full strength when we are changed. If we are brethren and will receive a body like His, we have made the cut. Born again is a physical change not a change of mind. If born again was based on our mind each time we commit a sin and ask for forgiveness, we will be born again and again and again.
 

Brakelite

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Just saying bro, nonsense... no support for your claims... fables and wishful thinking. ...poison...weak spirted people over the centuries.

John wrote more that anyone else concerning the Son of God, his Father, not that he was also God himself. That would be nonsense indeed.
Brother APAK. No evidence? Wishful thinking? You think the hundreds of thousands of Bible scholars over the centuries made it all up? And those that read their studies and checked "to see if it were so" agreed because they just wanted to?

The Psalmist wrote:
“Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.” Psalms 50:3

In similar fashion Isaiah prophesied
“He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.” Isaiah 25:8-9

When speaking of this same event (the return of Jesus), the apostle Paul wrote:
“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
It is the “Lord himself” who is returning for His people. He will do so with “the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God”. We shall then all shout, “this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us”. God is the Saviour of mankind (1 Timothy 2:3, 4:10, Titus 2:10, 3:4, Jude 25).
God is our redeemer. Throughout the Bible, God speaks of Himself as Saviour and Redeemer. Through the prophet Isaiah He said
“Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. Isaiah 43:10-11
“Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 44:6

“Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.” Isaiah 45:21

“As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.” Isaiah 47:4

“Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.” Isaiah 48:17

“And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.” Isaiah 59:20

This led the same prophet to exclaim
“Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.” Isaiah 63:16

In similar fashion, God had said through the prophet Hosea
“Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.” Hosea 13:4
God has made it clear that there is no other god but Him, also that there is no other saviour but Him. This He has said on a number of occasions. Interestingly though it was Christ who through Isaiah and Hosea spoke the above words. As Peter tells us “Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.” 1 Peter 1:9-11 God spoke through Christ. Christ spoke through the prophets. Christ is God our Saviour and redeemer. We have read above that God said,
“I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God”. Very early in the Book of Revelation, Christ said to John “Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.” Revelation 1:17
“And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;” Revelation 2:8
In closing the vision, Jesus also said to John “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last…. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.” Revelation 22:12 –13, 16)

In the Old Testament, God says of Himself that He is the first and the last (see Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 48:12). In the New Testament Christ says of Himself that He is the first and the last (see Revelation 1:17, 2:8, 22:13).

Notice in Revelation 22:12 that He who refers to Himself as the first and the last is the One who will be returning to earth, also at 1:17 and 2:8 it says that He who is the first and the last was dead. This can only mean Christ.

With respect to the return of Jesus, an interesting verse of Scripture is this one. “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” Titus 2:13 This is a specific reference to the second coming of Jesus. It is referring to Christ as “Saviour” and “the great God”. Some translations place a different emphasis on this verse. “while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” Titus 2:13 NIV “looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, Titus 2:13 NASB

“in expectation of the fulfilment of our blessed hope--the Appearing in glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;” Titus 2:13 Weymouth translation

“abidinge the blessid hope and the comyng of the glorie of the greet God, and of oure sauyour Jhesu Crist;” Titus 2:13 Wycliffe Bible (1395)
In these translations, the emphasis is on the appearing of “glory”. This though does not change the fact that Christ is referred to here as our “Saviour” and “the great God”. In the Interpreter’s Bible it says (after saying that some translate this verse as meaning the Father and the Son) “It is preferable, however, to suppose with most commentators, ancient as well as modern, that both epithets refer to Jesus, even though nowhere else in the N.T. is Jesus spoken of as our great God. This is the natural construction in Greek of two nouns following one article (“the”)”. (The Interpreters Bible, Volume 11, pages 539-540, Comments on Titus 2:13)
 
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Brakelite

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Continued...

Another three commentaries say the same. Note they all say that the parousia (the second coming) never includes the Father – only Christ.



“In these last words not only does the grammar indicate that the inspired writer identified the Great God and the Saviour; not only is there a continuous chain of authorities, reaching from the apostolic age to our own, to this effect; but, further, the fact that “appearing” is a term peculiarly applied to the Son, and never to the Father, and that the immediate context especially refers to Christ, places it almost beyond doubt that our Blessed Lord is here said to be the great God; and that in the words of Ellicott, “this text is a direct, definite, and even studied declaration of the Divinity of the Eternal Son.” (Thee Rev. Edward Henry Bickersteth, M. A., A practical and Explanatory Commentary on the New Testament) “The text, declaring the true hope of the believer to be the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, bears attractive testimony to the deity of Christ. In favour of this translation it can be said that nowhere else in the NT is God the Father said to appear, nor is the adjective great used of Him. The most convincing argument, however, is the presence of only one definite article which has the effect of binding together the two titles” (A Bible Commentary for Today, Edited by G. C. D. Howley, Page 1574, Comments by Alan G. Nute, 1979) “This verse is an eloquent expression of Paul’s belief in the divinity of Christ. Sometimes the translation is found: “of the great God [i. e., the Father] and our Saviour Jesus Christ. The following considerations militate against this translation: (1) In the Greek the expression “great God” and “our Saviour Jesus Christ” are governed by a single definite article; (2) the verse refers to the parousia, and everywhere else the glorious manifestation of the parousia pertains to Christ (1 Tm 6:14-15; 2 Tm 4:1; 1 Cor 1:7; 2 Thess 1:7; etc.); (3) the rest of the sentence (v.14) speaks only of Christ and ascribes to him a divine prerogative, the possession of a chosen people.” (The Jerome Biblical Commentary, R. E. Brown, J. A. Fitzmyer, R. E. Murphy, pages 360-361, Commentary on Titus, 1970) The same in principle applies to 2 Peter 1:1 “Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:” 2 Peter 1:1 Most scholars I have read, because there is only one definite article modifying “God” and “Saviour”, favour the Greek construct as referring to one and the same person. In keeping with these scholars, the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary makes this comment (which summarizes it quite well) “The Greek construction makes it reasonably certain that “God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” refers to one person, Jesus Christ. The phrase may be rendered “our God, even the Saviour Jesus Christ”. (The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 7, page 595, Comment on 2 Peter 1:1)