Oddly OSAS

[doctrox]

Yes, this thread is about reconciling all those Scriptures together with all the other Scriptures that seem to say we cannot be lost.

What are "all the other Scriptures that seem to say we cannot be lost"? Pls post them in like manner as I have done, proving that believers can fall away.

...from one perspective...but, from another...

Rather, there is only one true "perspective" - God's truth - and then there are endless lies. We best be about the Father's business.

 

[GracePeace]

What are "all the other Scriptures that seem to say we cannot be lost"? Pls post them in like manner as I have done, proving that believers can fall away.

Christ says He will lose none, etc.

Rather, there is only one true "perspective" - God's truth - and then there are endless lies. We best be about the Father's business.

From God's perspective, you were once a sinner, and He sent Christ, and gave you faith, and now you are a saint. He "forgot" your sins (Jer 31:34). Which of those perspectives of God is true?

 

[doctrox]

Scriptures, pls.

 

[GracePeace]

Scriptures, pls.

For which assertion?

 

[doctrox]

Precisely.

 

[GracePeace]

Precisely.

Please clarify.

 

[doctrox]

It's a Bible study forum, not a debate forum. Thanks anyway.

 

[GracePeace]

It's a Bible study forum, not a debate forum. Thanks anyway.

You had asked for Scriptural citations, so, because I'd made many assertions, and wasn't going to drag Scriptural references (references you're already acquainted with, yet are asking me to drag the citations out--I'll have added nothing to you after having dragged them out for you), I asked you to specify which assertions you wanted Scriptural citations for.

When you want the citations, please specify which claims you wanted citations for.

Thanks

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Jesus is the Author AND Finisher of our faith, therefore OSAS.
That said, I used to interpret the concept of this Book of Life as only including those saved and that this book of eternally saved individuals existed in the beginning of Creation. In God's mind, since He knows all, that is true. But for us, we only see life from birth to death in time, day by day, year by year. So to us, it is a book with our names added when we are born and kept there or blotted out depending on what happens in life (we receive Christ and persevere or not). At the end of time when all have been accounted for, it is for us The Eternal Book of Life; but not before since one can be blotted out. So what does this mean? The Book of Life (how Gid wants us to understand it since we do not possess omniclscience), therefore starts with everyone's name who ever lived life, written in as all unbelievers when we are born but then ends with only the saved believers. And that's my perspective, not God's, for He sees the end from the beginning. My two cents ... go figure.

 

[GracePeace]

Jesus is the Author AND Finisher of our faith, therefore OSAS.

Sure... and what do you do with verses that indicate the loss of faith, like Matthew 18, where the guy is forgiven all his debts (corresponding to the righteousness of faith, defined as being forgiven Ro 4:6-8), but, afterward, the forgiveness is rescinded (meaning his righteousness of faith has been forgotten--as God says, He is able to forget not only sin but also righteousness)?

You see, I need an explanation that is able to account for all that is taught in the Bible, not just one or two strips of Scripture here and there.

That said, I used to interpret the concept of this Book of Life as only including those saved and that this book of eternally saved individuals existed in the beginning of Creation. In God's mind, since He knows all, that is true. But for us, we only see life from birth to death in time, day by day, year by year. So to us, it is a book with our names added when we are born and kept there or blotted out depending on what happens in life (we receive Christ and persevere or not). At the end of time when all have been accounted for, it is for us The Eternal Book of Life; but not before since one can be blotted out. So what does this mean? The Book of Life (how Gid wants us to understand it since we do not possess omniclscience), therefore starts with everyone's name who ever lived life, written in as all unbelievers when we are born but then ends with only the saved believers. And that's my perspective, not God's, for He sees the end from the beginning. My two cents ... go figure.

My issue with this interpretation is that "God's Book", "the Lamb's Book of Life", etc, is only mentioned where God's people are concerned : in Exodus, after God's people sinned a great sin, Moses said, "No, blot me out of Your Book", and the answer is, "No, the one who has sinned against Me I will blot out of My Book"; in Revelation 3, it is mentioned with regard to the Church, where those who have defiled their garments are those who will be blotted out (because they are contrasted against those who are worthy, who will walk with Christ in White, who He will never blot out of His Book), as it always has been said, "the one who has sinned against Me I will blot out".

So, what does all of this mean?

Righteousness is what corresponds with life.
Unrighteousness is what corresponds with death.
Therefore, the righteous are in His Book of the living.

When Hosea 1 says "No Mercy" and "Not My People", it means that God's People are, by definition, those upon whom God has mercy, this is the source of life--mercy. Those who retain faith in Christ, and who walk in faith, are those upon whom God has mercy, and this is righteousness of faith (Ro 4:6-8) whereby they overcome the world.

Those who are "blotted out of God's Book" are those who are "cut off" from God's people (eg, Ro 11:17+) for not retaining faith, but, also, not walking in faith (Ro 1:17, 14:5, 23), is what it seems.

So, when someone is "cut off", "blotted out", then it becomes that God never said to them "I will not lose you", because their righteousness of faith has been "forgotten"--therefore, still, Christ will "lose none", but, also, people can be blotted out/forgotten/lose salvation (which, from another perspective, they don't "lose" salvation, because, from that other perspective, God "forgets", so it becomes that they never have had it).

The conclusion, then--the practical application--is that we should trust God like OSAS says.

 

[ChristinaL]

Since those who fall away from the faith are counted as having never been saved (their faith counted as righteousness is forgotten (Ez 18:24), their names blotted out of the Book of Life), in a way, those who have the faith never fall away, but continue on with the believers (1 Jn 2:19), which is, in an odd way, a form of OSAS--which frees me to accept and be comforted by the verses that speak of having been predestined, etc.

Hebrews 6
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

People like to use this passage as proof that OSAS is a lie. But the real truth is it refers to those who were never true believers to begin with, people who had the gospel fully explained to them, even seen what the Holy Ghost does for the believer, and still reject Him. Another good example is those who come to Christ under false pretense, listening to the lies of Joel Osteen, Benny hinn and other prosperity gospel preachers and they fall away when their false expectations of healing and wealth are not met.

 

[GracePeace]

Hebrews 6
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

People like to use this passage as proof that OSAS is a lie. But the real truth is it refers to those who were never true believers to begin with, people who had the gospel fully explained to them, even seen what the Holy Ghost does for the believer, and still reject Him. Another good example is those who come to Christ under false pretense, listening to the lies of Joel Osteen, Benny hinn and other prosperity gospel preachers and they fall away when their false expectations of healing and wealth are not met.

No, they're the people referred to in Heb 10, "'My righteous one will live by faith, but if [My righteous one] shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him' [without faith it is impossible to please God], but we are not of those who shrink back to destruction... ." They shrank back from the faith--as John warns, "Little children, abide in Him so that when He appears, you will not shrink back in shame at His appearance."

This is what Ro 11 refers to when it says the believing Gentiles could also be cut off for unbelief, and be damned just as the unbelieving Jews.

Same as referred to in Matthew 18, where the guy was forgiven, because he had the righteousness of faith (which means you're forgiven Ro 4:6-8), but, later, because he didn't forgive, didn't have consistency between his profession and his walk, had the forgiveness rescinded (his righteousness of faith went away, was forgotten, he was blotted out of the Book of Life, cut off from God's people). He was ACTUALLY forgiven, saved, but, later, that went away.

 

[ChristinaL]

No, they're the people referred to in Heb 10, "'My righteous one will live by faith, but if [My righteous one] shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him' [without faith it is impossible to please God], but we are not of those who shrink back to destruction... ." They shrank back from the faith--as John warns, "Little children, abide in Him so that when He appears, you will not shrink back in shame at His appearance."

This is what Ro 11 refers to when it says the believing Gentiles could also be cut off for unbelief, and be damned just as the unbelieving Jews.

Same as referred to in Matthew 18, where the guy was forgiven, because he had the righteousness of faith (which means you're forgiven Ro 4:6-8), but, later, because he didn't forgive, didn't have consistency between his profession and his walk, had the forgiveness rescinded (his righteousness of faith went away, was forgotten, he was blotted out of the Book of Life, cut off from God's people). He was ACTUALLY forgiven, saved, but, later, that went away.

Sorry but this is incorrect. Romans 11 in particular doesnt speak of BELIEVING Gentiles and verse 29 also says. God does NOT rescind forgiveness. good commentaries on this are easy to find
a29rFor the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

[GracePeace]

Sorry but this is incorrect. Romans 11 in particular doesnt speak of BELIEVING Gentiles

The text forces me to disagree.

Romans 11
17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

God does NOT rescind forgiveness. good commentaries on this are easy to find
a29rFor the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

I can't unsee what I've read :

Matthew 18
31So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their master all that had happened. 32Then summoning him, his master *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34And his master, moved with anger, handed him over to the [ad]torturers until he would repay all that was owed him. 35My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your [ae]heart.”

So, before, the servant was forgiven, but, afterward, the servant was no longer forgiven, but had to repay the same debts that had formerly been forgiven.

That is the rescinding of the forgiveness formerly extended to him.

 

[ChristinaL]

The text forces me to disagree.

Romans 11
17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

I can't unsee what I've read :

Matthew 18
31So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their master all that had happened. 32Then summoning him, his master *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34And his master, moved with anger, handed him over to the [ad]torturers until he would repay all that was owed him. 35My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your [ae]heart.”

So, before, the servant was forgiven, but, afterward, the servant was no longer forgiven, but had to repay the same debts that had formerly been forgiven.

That is the rescinding of the forgiveness formerly extended to him.

Then you call God a liar- you are not interpreting the passages correctly and the bible is more than clear that God does NOT take away His Gifts

 

[GracePeace]

Then you call God a liar- you are not interpreting the passages correctly and the bible is more than clear that God does NOT take away His Gifts

Well, in that case, one of us is calling God a "liar", but only one of us has actually proven their point by pointing at Scripture--that was me. You denied that Paul was speaking to believing Gentiles, telling them they could be cut off for unbelief, but I pointed to the Scripture, and proved that, indeed, Paul addressed believing Gentiles and told them they could be cut off for unbelief, and you can't accept that. It's hard to accept Scripture when it inconveniences your tradition.

 

[GracePeace]

Then you call God a liar- you are not interpreting the passages correctly and the bible is more than clear that God does NOT take away His Gifts

NOTE : The specific gifts and callings that are "without repentance" are the "gifts and callings" the Jews, who were cut off for unbelief, still have, because of their fathers, BUT their retaining those gifts and callings happens at the same time as they are "cut off" for unbelief, so the conclusion is that what ever "gift and calling" is without repentance does not encompass anything pertaining to being either "grafted in" or "cut off" from the "cultivated olive tree".