IS THE REFORMED FAITH BIBLICAL?

[GodsGrace]

Your opponent thinks he needs to save Christianity from Arminianism.

Okay; you think you need to save Christianity from Calvinism. You won't; its biblical roots run deep. I once thought that too. You know that I came to this forum to resume a five-year-old feud with a Calvinist (who shall remain nameless) from the old Key Life Forum? For all the passion and study I put into the issue, nobody changed their theological position because of me. Nobody changed their minds. Nobody's listening.

All I really need to do is be able to cogent present what I believe and why I believe it.

There's really been only two cases where I think somebody got hurt from believing in that theological system. I dislike that your opponent in the OP uses his perceived membership in the Elect to treat others like crap. That's not consistent with Christ's teachings. More serious is a brother on this forum (who's now permanently banned) who was a staunch Calvinist - but because he could not shake a certain besetting sin, he was convinced that he was not one of the Elect, and he could not trust Jesus to save him. THAT is a hill I'm willing to die on.

You bring up an interesting point.
If it's God that does the choosing....how can we know He really chose us?

This is from The Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin,
Book 3
Chapter 24
Paragraph 8

Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm a Christian Universalist, so my views will be a major curve-ball to the discussion, if that's okay.

Salvation is based on the Atonement. Everyone is already saved.
Was the Atonement a complete work, or an incomplete work?

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.


I won't be taking sides.
Just agreeing or disagreeing with various elements.

I don't agree that God saves some and not others, BUT...
I do believe that the Elect are predestined based on seemingly NOTHING from our perspective.

This is where the term "But each in turn" comes into play.
"... all will be made alive. But each in turn..."

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then,
when he comes, those who belong to him.
24 Then the end will come,
when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father
after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

[

OK
At least you understand that God's choosing in the reformed system is based on nothing.
We have a member here that doesn't even know this and he claims to be calvinist.

Christ's sacrifice was SUFFICIENT to cover the sins of the whole world.
But we still have to accept that sacrifice on an individual basis.
But this will take this thread off topic.

You posted 1 Cor 15:23
Who are those that belong to Him if turns are being taken?
Shouldn't everyone belong to Him in your theology?

 

[St. SteVen]

You're allowed.

But could you show me a couple of verses that state that God chooses who will be saved?

Any scripture about "the Elect", "election", or "predestination" says that God chose, not us.
Some have invented work-arounds to claim that means something different than what it clearly says.

We have to do something to have a renewed relationship with God.
But what we do, didn't save us. We are saved by GRACE (not our doing) through faith (our doing).
Not by works (of any kind) lest we boast that we were saved by ANYTHING other than God.

[

 

[GodsGrace]

It appears to say no such thing. Is that the right reference. Maybe Ephesian 2:8-10 ?

No. I was addressing Romans 9.

This verse supports my position. Not about us. Never was.

Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Again, it's stating that we cannot work our way to heaven.
It depends on God's mercy.

Does God have mercy in the reformed system?
What about all the poor souls He rejected?
No mercy in Calvinism.

That's a terrible apologetic.
Why did the Philippian jailer want to fall on his sword?
The salvation he sought was from the Roman authorities.

[

What?
I was stating HOW one becomes saved.
Acts 16:31-34
29And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, 30and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”



The Jailer Converted

31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. 33And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. 34And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.

 

[St. SteVen]

You posted 1 Cor 15:23
Who are those that belong to Him if turns are being taken?
Shouldn't everyone belong to Him in your theology?

Good question.

Everyone belongs to Him.
Most of Christianity has the idea that only His chosen predestined Elect belong to him.
Each in turn means EVERYONE is included. The Elect are the firstfruits.

[

 

[GodsGrace]

Any scripture about "the Elect", "election", or "predestination" says that God chose, not us.
Some have invented work-arounds to claim that means something different than what it clearly says.

This is not correct.
The Elect could be Israel or it could be those that are saved.
HOWEVER, something must be done to become elect...
and God is good enough to let us know what it is.

Predestination exists in the bible, but if you don't agree with my post (I think it was 108)
then I can't really say much more. The only thing I'll say is that the bible is a complete thought.

God predestined the HOW and the PURPOSE
He did not predestine some for salvation and some for damnation.
What's not clear about this:

Ephesians 1:4-6
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

What is being predestined above?

We have to do something to have a renewed relationship with God.
But what we do, didn't save us. We are saved by GRACE (not our doing) through faith (our doing).
Not by works (of any kind) lest we boast that we were saved by ANYTHING other than God.

[

Agreed.

But a couple of verses stating that God chooses who will be saved would have been nice.
(there aren't any).

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
That's a terrible apologetic.
Why did the Philippian jailer want to fall on his sword?
The salvation he sought was from the Roman authorities.

What?
I was stating HOW one becomes saved.

What does the context up to that point tell us. Again...
Why did the Philippian jailer want to fall on his sword?
The salvation he sought was from the Roman authorities.

Acts 16:25-30 NIV
About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God,
and the other prisoners were listening to them.
26 Suddenly there was such a violent earthquake that the foundations of the prison were shaken.
At once all the prison doors flew open, and everyone’s chains came loose.
27 The jailer woke up, and when he saw the prison doors open,
he drew his sword and was about to kill himself
because he thought the prisoners had escaped.
28 But Paul shouted, “Don’t harm yourself! We are all here!”
29 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas.
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

[

 

[JohnDB]

In the gospel of John the story of "The Man Born Blind" explained this very theology and how it is NOT accurate. Also the ramifications of entering this argument.

Which is why so many people do not understand the answer Jesus gave....because they are "blind" to the argument. They toss away the miracle as "just another miracle" and lose the significance of it being included in John's narrative as well as the unbelief of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

The discussion starts with Peter asking the standard question for this debate during their time "Who sinned to cause this man to be born blind?"

But today we can ask the same question just slightly differently "What sin did this man sin to keep him from being saved?"

And since the answer is lost on so many in its simplicity....I don't believe that any explanation will suffice for either side to comprehend.

Just be grateful for the Salvation you believe you have and guard it with ALL the diligence you can muster....before a worse judgment befalls you.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Gods will is ' nothing ', you have a low view of God.

Going backwards.
It is a strawman argument because it misrepresents their views.

That is a shocking thing for a follower of the person who is The Truth.
You may not accept how they interpret scripture, but as a follower of Truth you have to acknowledge there views are based on scripture.

God's will, as revealed in the Bible, is all-powerful, all-knowing, present everywhere, and eternal. Such a view of God is very high.

 

[JohnDB]

Any scripture about "the Elect", "election", or "predestination" says that God chose, not us.
Some have invented work-arounds to claim that means something different than what it clearly says.

We have to do something to have a renewed relationship with God.
But what we do, didn't save us. We are saved by GRACE (not our doing) through faith (our doing).
Not by works (of any kind) lest we boast that we were saved by ANYTHING other than God.

[

Elect does not equate to Select. IE: Where the the Selected may include the Elect, it is not a requirement.

Kapeesh? (Mispelled to draw Fran's ire)

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
We have to do something to have a renewed relationship with God.
But what we do, didn't save us. We are saved by GRACE (not our doing) through faith (our doing).
Not by works (of any kind) lest we boast that we were saved by ANYTHING other than God.

Agreed.

But a couple of verses stating that God chooses who will be saved would have been nice.
(there aren't any).

Here's a few, I have more.

Romans 11:32, 36
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

[

 

[GodsGrace]

Good question.

Everyone belongs to Him.
Most of Christianity has the idea that only His chosen predestined Elect belong to him.

Of course you know I don't believe in CHOSEN, PREDESTINED OR ELECT the way that you're using it.
As the thread title states,,,,it's not biblical,,,,it's not what the bible teaches.
Already explained this a couple of times.

Each in turn means EVERYONE is included. The Elect are the firstfruits.

Each in turn does not mean everyone.
Paul is talking about the resurrection...
of our actual bodies.

Jesus is first because He already has been resurrected...
Resurrection from death came by one man....Jesus.

EVERYBODY comes alive IN CHRIST.
We must be IN CHRIST at the resurrection to come alive eternally.

So, Jesus first....
He returns with those that had already died and are already in heaven...
then those that are alive that are IN CHRIST.

Then all the rest at the final judgment.
Yes, eventually all will be resurrected....
but for the judgment.

 

[St. SteVen]

Of course you know I don't believe in CHOSEN, PREDESTINED OR ELECT the way that you're using it.
As the thread title states,,,,it's not biblical,,,,it's not what the bible teaches.

Where did those words come from if not from the Bible.
You are talking about the apologetic work-arounds that skirt the actual definitions.
Everyone wants their apologetic work-arounds to be WHAT "the Bible teaches."

How can a doctrine NOT be biblical, if biblical references are provided?
You can honestly disagree, but you can't honestly say they aren't biblical.

What does "biblical" even mean? (matches your preferred doctrines?)

[

 

[GodsGrace]

St. SteVen said:
We have to do something to have a renewed relationship with God.
But what we do, didn't save us. We are saved by GRACE (not our doing) through faith (our doing).
Not by works (of any kind) lest we boast that we were saved by ANYTHING other than God.

Here's a few, I have more.

Romans 11:32, 36
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

[

Aha!
But you want to discuss universalism.

Romans 11
We're serving satan....it's through God's mercy that we can become saved.
God has mercy ON EVERYONE...this does not mean everyone is saved....
you can't only pick out the verse that seem to agree with you...you have to also take the other verses that state that we must be born again...Did Jesus not say this in John 3:5...?

Titus 2:11
John the Baptist said: Behold, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.
Jesus died for ALL PEOPLE....He brings salvation to all....
But don't you see any conditions in the NT?

John 1:29
above

1 Timothy 4:10
ESPECIALLY those who believe.
You're a smart guy..check out the greek.

1 John 4:14
Right. Again Jesus is the savior of the whole world.
His sacrifice was sufficient for all sins.
But there are conditions.

I think we need to stop talking about this.

 

[GodsGrace]

Where did those words come from if not from the Bible.
You are talking about the apologetic work-arounds that skirt the actual definitions.
Everyone wants their apologetic work-arounds to be WHAT "the Bible teaches."

How can a doctrine NOT be biblical, if biblical references are provided?
You can honestly disagree, but you can't honestly say they aren't biblical.

What does "biblical" even mean? (matches your preferred doctrines?)

[

Your belief system is not biblical.
It just is not what Jesus taught.
Proof texts must be in alignment with the ENTIRE NT.
Otherwise, everyone's own belief will be biblical and that means there will be NO TRUTH.

I explained very well in my post 108....
if you can't accept it, that's up to you.

 

[St. SteVen]

Aha!
But you want to discuss universalism.

You asked for verses. I gave you verses.
I said nothing about universalism in that post.
Were my Bible verses "unbiblical"? (since you don't agree with them)

I think we need to stop talking about this.

Fine.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Your belief system is not biblical.

LOL
That preposterous!

Why don't you understand what the word "biblical" means?

Your belief system is not biblical.

You need more? Okay.


1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,
how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin:
The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Ecclesiastes 12:14 NIV
For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

1 John 4:18 NIV
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear,
because fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

[

 

[GodsGrace]

St. SteVen said:
That's a terrible apologetic.
Why did the Philippian jailer want to fall on his sword?
The salvation he sought was from the Roman authorities.

What does the context up to that point tell us. Again...
Why did the Philippian jailer want to fall on his sword?
The salvation he sought was from the Roman authorities.

Acts 16:25-30 NIV
About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God,
and the other prisoners were listening to them.
26 Suddenly there was such a violent earthquake that the foundations of the prison were shaken.
At once all the prison doors flew open, and everyone’s chains came loose.
27 The jailer woke up, and when he saw the prison doors open,
he drew his sword and was about to kill himself
because he thought the prisoners had escaped.
28 But Paul shouted, “Don’t harm yourself! We are all here!”
29 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas.
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

[

What does the above have to do with the jailor asking how he could be saved and the response from Paul??

You have a problem with this because you don't believe in orthodox salvation....
if you believe everyone is going to be saved...you read that into everything.

The jailor and Paul were discussing CHRISTIAN SALVATION OF A PERON'S SOUL.

If this were the only line in the NT about salvation, your comment could even be entertained...
but it's not...and this is my point...ALL SCRIPTURE must align with itself.

Notice that they were already out when the jailor asked.
Also, they were released the next day.
and, they spoke the WORD OF THE LORD to the jailor...
It was about salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

You asked for verses. I gave you verses.
I said nothing about universalism in that post.
Were my Bible verses "unbiblical"? (since you don't agree with them)


Fine.

[

And I replied to each and every one.
They don't mean what you think they mean.

 

[Lambano]

You bring up an interesting point.
If it's God that does the choosing....how can we know He really chose us?

6 Because you are his sons and daughters, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” (Galatians 4:6)

That's the go-to verse. For those who have not been blessed with this kind of assurance in their hearts, I gently advise them to trust God and His promises anyway. Because I've been there. Sometimes faith, hope, and love are all you've got.