IS THE REFORMED FAITH BIBLICAL?

[GodsGrace]

What do you mean by moral options?

In philosophy the concept of free will means something totally different.
For example, does man have the free will to fly?

Biblically speaking, when we talk of man having free will, we mean the free will to either sin or not sin.
To obey God or not to obey God. We are free to choose.

God gives TO US the choice of following Him or not....
Did God give to Adam the choice of eating from the tree?

Deuteronomy 30:19
19“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

The reformed believe that man does NOT have free will to choose.

Who draws us to Jesus?

Do you believe that Gods Spirit draws us to cry out to the Lord?

God always makes the first move.
God calls to each man and gives to each man enough grace to be able to either accept Him or deny Him.
God reached out to you....you said you cried out to God....
this was your RESPONSE to Him.

And so this is when you became a child of God.

Do you believe that God draws us to himself?

Jesus draws all men to Himself.

John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

But we must respond.

What does that mean, all men to be saved?

God created us....we're His ultimate creation.
God would want every single one of us to be saved.
But He's a just God and has set some conditions.
If we accept those conditions, then we can be saved....
If not, we will not be saved.
I had posted 1 Timothy 2:4 . .... Did you read it?

Does God say he wants all men to become Born Again?

Yes.

We aren’t saved from eternal damnation, not until our spirit is Born Again.

Correct.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Born Again are represented in scripture, if you aren’t Born Again then we aren’t saved...what in us is saved from eternal damnation?

Our soul and our spirit....
and, at the resurrection, our body.

What separates us from the Spirit of God?

We're born with the sin nature....
this separates us from God.
There is none righteous, no not one.
Romans 3:10

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Romans 3:23

 

[GodsGrace]

The Reformed faith founded on the Bible offers that Good News to all people. Why do you think we don't preach and teach the Good News that Jesus died for our justification and rose from the dead for our new life to present believers as "not-guilty" for the Father's verdict that he laid on Jesus on the cross? I don't understand your indictment of the Reformed faith.

I'm a little shocked, to tell you the truth.
I feel like I'm explaining the reformed faith to persons claiming to be reformed.

What you've stated above is the good news.
BUT WHO is the good news for?

In the reformed faith, the good news is ONLY for those that God has chosen for salvation.
There is NO GOOD NEWS, generally speaking.

In fact, why even preach the gospel IF God is going to decide who is saved and who is not.

I can tell someone to whom I'm witnessing that Jesus died for our justification and rose from the dead for our new life to present believers as "not guilty" for the Father's verdict. (your exact words).

I can proclaim the above because I believe the other person has the FREE WILL to choose God or to deny God.
Why would YOU proclaim the above if the person to whom you're witnessing has NO FREE WILL to choose God?

 

[Lambano]

I think, in my case, I need to take a stand on this.
It's incredibly incorrect and needs to be addressed.

It's clear from some posts on here that some don't even understand what reformed faith is
If we don't see the danger - how do we protect ourselves from it?

Your opponent thinks he needs to save Christianity from Arminianism.

Okay; you think you need to save Christianity from Calvinism. You won't; its biblical roots run deep. I once thought that too. You know that I came to this forum to resume a five-year-old feud with a Calvinist (who shall remain nameless) from the old Key Life Forum? For all the passion and study I put into the issue, nobody changed their theological position because of me. Nobody changed their minds. Nobody's listening.

All I really need to do is be able to cogently present what I believe and why I believe it.

There's really been only two cases where I think somebody got hurt from believing in that theological system. I dislike that your opponent in the OP uses his perceived membership in the Elect to justify treating others like crap. That's not consistent with Christ's teachings. More serious is a brother on this forum (who's now permanently banned) who was a staunch Calvinist - but because he could not shake a certain besetting sin, he was convinced that he was not one of the Elect, and he could not trust Jesus to save him. THAT is a hill I'm willing to die on.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Good News is the sincere offer of salvation through Jesus for all who believe and trust in him as the only way to the Father's acceptance. What is unbiblical about that offer?

Bruce, Here's some news for you.
You must not be reformed/Calvinist.

 

[St. SteVen]

Years ago, when Mr. Clinton was in office, one of our Japanese vendors came to the states about the time of the American 4-year voting cycle. He asked us what we thought about the upcoming "Presidential Erection". I did my best to keep a straight face. After all, his English was a helluva lot better than my Japanese.

Reminds me of the story about the Eye doctor informing his Japanese patient that he had cataracts.
The man replied. "No has cataracts, has Rincoln!"

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[St. SteVen]

The point in question is whether "election" is unconditional (the "U" in TULIP) or conditioned on something we do, faith.

Maybe that's why I bristle at the words "election" and "predestination".
As in, chosen outside of our will. It's unconditional by definition.

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[GodsGrace]

,v

I'm sorry to see how hurt you are by the truth, but I'm not surprised at all because most professing Christians hate the awful truth of the gospel. So they twist the truth of he gospel to make it say something completely different, so they can sell, it like a consumer product and make a lot of money like your Arminian religion was doing for 1500 until Martin Luther exposed it.

You claim that you don't know what Arminian theology is, but you theology is 100% pure Aminianism. You are no different to any other Arminian, none of you know what you believe, you all follow the crowd because you think there is safety in numbers. But Jesus warned us about your crowd, He said broad is the way that leads to hell and many travel on it, but narrow is the way that leads to heaven. Good luck with your crowd.

I can tell by your theology that you don't know the truth. I know the truth, because He is in me. Jesus said "I am the Truth", so the truth is a Person and not a thing that your religion invented.

You say I can't support my beliefs, but the your big problem there is that you're contradicting yourself because you admit that you're not biblically literate and yet you think your qualified to examine what I believe and to determine if it's true. Let me remind you of the fact that you need to know the truth before you can recognize it.
Your theology can not be supported by any scripture, so you have either invented it yourself or you have been deceived by a Wolf in Sheep's clothing. It's one or the other, but the result is the same.

I belong to an independent, Non Denominational, Reformed Baptist Church. So your comment about "my denomination's teaching" doesn't apply to me. My Church is Governed by only one authority, and that's Gods Word as He gave it to us. We don't follow dead Saints or Popes, or any man. We only follow the Lord Jesus Christ Himself and nobody else, so you need to reevaluate your comment as t was spoken out of ignorance.

Reformed theology is the Orthodox interpretation of the Word of God, the Reformed Church is modeled on the Apostolic Church. All the Denominations, like yours broke away from the Apostolic Church because they hate the truth of the gospel so much that they had to change the very foundational doctrines, to turn the gospel in to a consumer product to sell to the crowd.

Please tell me why you don't believe any of the verses below, let me guess, they expose your (Arminian free choice) false gospel and they confirm that Reformed theology is biblically correct, right!!!

You'll have to show us WHERE in the bible it states that man has NO FREE WILL.
Thanks.

Now on to your verses.....
But we will exegete and not eisegete:

Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

God chose us IN HIM before the foundation of the world....
so that we would be blameless before God Father.

It's telling you HOW we will be saved...
NOT WHO will be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

The same.
We are chosen for salvation THROUGH SANCTIFICATION.....

The plan God has is always for
HOW
or
PURPOSE

NEVER FOR WHO....
Anyone can come to God and be saved.

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

True. We were not called by our works, but by our faith.

HOW and not who.

John 15:16
You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

Jesus chose the Apostles.
Jesus was speaking to the Apostles in John 15 to 17.
This is the only verse that states that Jesus chose someone....
one verse does not a doctrine make.
JESUS CHOSE THE APOSTLES.
He APPOINTED THEM.....to be missionaries.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Don't know why you posted the above.
It rather works against your beliefs.

It states that we are SAVED THROUGH FAITH....
It DOES NOT state that God CHOSE YOU....
God's grace is a gift to all who will accept it.
God's plan of salvation is a gift to all who will accept it.
We are not saved by works...but they will come after just as God has planned.
John 3:16 WHOSOEVERY believes can be saved.

John 10:27-29
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

John 10:26 answers the above.
Jesus said: BUT YOU DO NOT BELIEVE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP.

Jesus' sheep will always follow His voice.
And no one will be able to take you away from God's love.


When you read through your bible, you'll find that predestination is always concerning
HOW or PURPOSE
NEVER WHO.....

If God chose WHO will be saved, He would be a very unjust God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Maybe that's why I bristle at the words "election" and "predestination".
As in, chosen outside of our will. It's unconditional by definition.

[

See my post no. 108

 

[GodsGrace]

Gods will is ' nothing ', you have a low view of God.

Going backwards.
It is a strawman argument because it misrepresents their views.

That is a shocking thing for a follower of the person who is The Truth.
You may not accept how they interpret scripture, but as a follower of Truth you have to acknowledge there views are based on scripture.

Well WC,,,
Please post exactly on WHAT God basis His choice for who will be saved.
Thanks.

And please don't put words into my mouth.
I stated that YOU DON'T know what God basis His choices on...
In reformed theology, they're based ON NOTHING, but His own will.

I didn't say God's will is nothing.

 

[GodsGrace]

Did you hear @Ritajanice's testimony? Really hear it?

Her experience was that regeneration came before (or simultaneous with) faith. My experience was that faith came first. Our experience informs our theologies, and I'm in no position to tell someone else, "You didn't experience what you think you experienced" because I wasn't there.

So, God worked with another person differently than He did me? He still loves me, and who says one size fits all? Praise and thanksgiving would be appropriate; feeling threatened or envious would not.

Our experiences are different.
But God does not save us FIRST, and THEN give us faith.

Did I misunderstand the other member's statement?
I understand that she cried out to God and she got saved.
This sounds right to me.

God makes the first move and gives us enough grace to know He's there....
then WE make the decision to respond...
Her cry was her response.

I'm not here to discuss experiences but what the bible states.
I would say that expressing faith and becoming born again is practically simultaneous.
I don't really see any passing of time between the two...do you?

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace said:
Ephesians 2:8 is an interesting verse....
On the one hand it proves that we have been saved through faith...
so faith must come before salvation.

I'm late to the party here.
I need to go back to the beginning and better inform myself about this subject.

However, I was struck by your posted response to @GodsGrace post.
I am familiar with the hair-splitting that goes on about this chicken-and-egg question.

In general I like to separate "salvation" from anything that we do. Only God can save.

[

Of course only God can save...
the questìon is:
based on what?

The reformed believe God chooses who will be saved...
and based on NOTHING that they can know....only that it's at the pleasure of God's will.
Is this the God of the OT and NT?

 

[GodsGrace]

How did you determine that Reformed theology is unbiblical?
Just because we disagree with a doctrine (or set of doctrines) doesn't in itself make them unbiblical.

Those in support of Reformed theology can present biblical "proof-texts" to support their position, correct?
If so, how can it be unbiblical?

[

Because the proof texts don't work.
Because the entire theology is based on 2 predicates:

1. MAN HAS NO FREE WILL.
2. MAN IS SO DEPRAVED AS TO BE UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.

If you believe the 2 above are correct,,,,and you can find it in the bible....then fine.
If you do not believe they're correct....and cannot find the concepts in the bible....then they're unbiblical.

 

[GodsGrace]

I had to step away from the argument for a couple of days. I found myself going back into battle mode again.

Reaching for his saddlebag,
He takes a rusty sword into his hand.
Striking up a knightly pose,
He shouts across the ocean to the shore
'Til he can shout no more

(Gordon Lightfoot, Don Quixote)

"Blessed be the peacemakers, for they shall be called the Children of God" - Matthew 5:9. Says so on the baseplates of my Glock 17's magazines. (Really!)

I got an alert from you I can't find again!
About how you were discussing this with someone some time ago.

I agree that no one is going to change their mind...
but many do leave Calvinism when they get a chance to really think about it.

Also, there are persons reading along that never post...
so this is for them too.

A problem I have with calvinism is that they try to make it sound so nice, so mainstream.
It's not and this has to be confronted.
Maybe some don't even really know what reformed theology teaches??

 

[St. SteVen]

You'll have to show us WHERE in the bible it states that man has NO FREE WILL.

Here's an article that explores the question of free will. The author says, No.

The Will of Man - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby

The Will of Man - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby At this point I wish to share some searching and enlightening words penned by a servant of the Lord more than sixty-five years ago. "Concerning the nature and the power of man's will, the greatest confusion prevails...

www.christianityboard.com

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[St. SteVen]

See my post no. 108

I think I disagree entirely.

[

 

[GodsGrace]

Here's an article that explores the question of free will. The author says, No.

The Will of Man - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby

The Will of Man - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby At this point I wish to share some searching and enlightening words penned by a servant of the Lord more than sixty-five years ago. "Concerning the nature and the power of man's will, the greatest confusion prevails...

www.christianityboard.com

[

Romans 9:16 just states that it's not our works that save us.
Faith is necessary.

Will is self-determing but will always take outside matters into consideration.
This is very different than believing that man has no free will....
if that were true, then calvinism would be correct because it would necessarily have to be God to choose who will be saved
since we cannot do this on our own.

Acts 16:31 What must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.
Romans is also full of verses that state it is our choice to be saved.

Do you have any doubt?
Or just thinking it through?

 

[GodsGrace]

I think I disagree entirely.

[

You're allowed.

But could you show me a couple of verses that state that God chooses who will be saved?

It should be clear in scripture since this is an important topic.

Do I just sit around and wait for God to come get me...
or do I have something to do with my salvation?

 

[St. SteVen]

Of course only God can save...
the questìon is:
based on what?

I'm a Christian Universalist, so my views will be a major curve-ball to the discussion, if that's okay.

Salvation is based on the Atonement. Everyone is already saved.
Was the Atonement a complete work, or an incomplete work?

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

The reformed believe God chooses who will be saved...
and based on NOTHING that they can know....only that it's at the pleasure of God's will.
Is this the God of the OT and NT?

I won't be taking sides.
Just agreeing or disagreeing with various elements.

I don't agree that God saves some and not others, BUT...
I do believe that the Elect are predestined based on seemingly NOTHING from our perspective.

This is where the term "But each in turn" comes into play.
"... all will be made alive. But each in turn..."

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then,
when he comes, those who belong to him.
24 Then the end will come,
when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father
after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Romans 9:16 just states that it's not our works that save us.
Faith is necessary.

It appears to say no such thing. Is that the right reference. Maybe Ephesian 2:8-10 ?

This verse supports my position. Not about us. Never was.

Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Acts 16:31 What must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.
Romans is also full of verses that state it is our choice to be saved.

That's a terrible apologetic.
Why did the Philippian jailer want to fall on his sword?
The salvation he sought was from the Roman authorities.

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