Where was Jesus between his death and resurrection?

[Biblepaige]

See Luke 16

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This also a misinterpretation because if you read it in context, Paul is addressing the Christian “body” as a whole, not individuals, as if they are made up of three components. Humans were created with a body, but they do not “have” a “soul”....they are a soul. Their spirit is the driving force in their personality, like the one displayed by Jesus and his apostles.

YOu are merely wrong. It is singular and not plural . Paul is blessing individuals in their body soul and spirit, no matter what the watchtowr teaches.

This statement “the spirits of just men made perfect” doesn’t mean what you assume it means.
The Greek word “spirit” (pneuma) when used in relation to humans or animals has the same meaning…..
It can mean…..

1. “the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
2. the soul”

Animals as well as humans are “souls” (air breathers) and can be said to be “spirited”….so the spirit found in “just men” is a strong and vibrant one, which remains true to the teachings of the Christ, no matter what others wish to believe or promote.
Since “few” are to be found on the road to life (Matt 7:13-14) and the majority have been taken off a superhighway to death....look for the hated and persecuted minority that others accuse of being heretics....

Now you are merely playing word games to describe what the believers in the 1st -21st centuries know about man.

Animals are souls, man has a soul which is that part of a person that thinks, rationalizes feels etc.

This also a misinterpretation because if you read it in context, Paul is addressing the Christian “body” as a whole, not individuals, as if they are made up of three components. Humans were created with a body, but they do not “have” a “soul”....they are a soul. Their spirit is the driving force in their personality, like the one displayed by Jesus and his apostles.

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

I know the Watchtower feels it has the right to interpret and reinterpret Scripture as it sees fit, but they don't and all who follow them will finid out in the end.

 

[Johann]

YOu are merely wrong. It is singular and not plural . Paul is blessing individuals in their body soul and spirit, no matter what the watchtowr teaches.

The idea that humans do not "have" a soul but "are" a soul aligns with the biblical understanding found in Genesis 2:7, where it says, "Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul (nephesh)." Here, the Hebrew word nephesh refers to the entire being or person, not something separate from the body. So, humans are "living souls," meaning that the body and life breath together form the whole person. This suggests that rather than possessing a separate entity called a soul, we are holistic beings—living souls composed of both body and spirit.

J.

 

[Aunty Jane]

See LuKe 16

The rich man and Lazarus is a parable in company with many other parables. To take any of it literally is absurd. Read it carefully and you will see the intent.

The rich man was never said to be wicked, nor was the beggar said to be righteous. The rich man merely ignored the plight of the beggar, who desired the crumbs or scraps falling from the rich man’s table. Picture it….did the rich man eat his meals at his gate, which is where the beggar was sitting.

When these men both “died”, they each went to a different place. The beggar was carried off to “the bosom of Abraham”, whilst the rich man languished in “hades” (which Jews knew to be the grave). He was tormented by the sight of the beggar being by Abraham’s side, whilst he was suffering in anguish, experiencing the heat of God’s anger when Jesus exposed the Jewish leaders for the lying hypocrites that they were.

So what is “the bosom of Abraham”? It was understood by the Jews to be a figurative position of favor with God. The rich man lost it, but the beggar gained it. What did this picture? With Jesus presence and his teachings exposing the false doctrines of the Pharisees, we see two groups of people pictured here….the rich man pictured the religious leaders, fat and happy with their lot in life, but failing to shepherd the spiritually impoverished ”beggars” under their care. These were ignored and treated as of no consequence. When Jesus came he fed those “lost sheep” and proved that they were precious to God.

The two “died” to their former condition, and changed places…….consequently, what the rich man lost, the beggar gained.
Now, ask yourself if a drop of water on a man’s finger would quench the thirst of one in literal flames?

What is the “chasm” that existed between where the Pharisees were, and where the beggar now was, that no one could cross? The two places represented God’s favor and his disfavor. The Jewish leaders were responsible to care for all of God’s sheep, not just the ones who groveled at their feet. Jesus sentenced the religious leaders to “Gehenna” for their failure to teach God’s word to his people and to care for them spiritually. Falsely translated as “hell”, “Gehenna“ represented a place or condition from which no one could return. (Matt 23:33) By rejecting the teachings of Jesus, their promised Messiah, these religious leaders condemned themselves to a place of eternal death. “The lake of fire” or “the second death” from which there is no resurrection.

“Hades” and “Gehenna” are two different places, but neither of them have conscious “souls“ in them.
The Jews had no belief in an afterlife because their Scripture did not teach it. (Eccl 9:5, 10; Psalm 115:17) They later adopted this belief from pagan ideas, just as Christendom did, interpreting these terms as indicating an afterlife that does not exist in reality. Believing that you ‘don’t really die‘, was the devil’s original lie in Eden…..and people still believe it….the devil still promotes it.

The Scriptures teach resurrection, which Jesus demonstrated when he raised his friend Lazarus (John 11:11-14)….a name he gave to the beggar in his parable as he was one such “lost sheep”, attracted to the teachings of Jesus Christ, along with his two sisters.

A resurrection is a return or restoration of life, not a continuation of it at death, passing over into some imagined spiritual realm.
Where was Lazarus before Jesus called him from his tomb? If he was in a better place, why bring him back to life, only to die again later? Did Lazarus relate a NDE? or in his case an “after death experience”?

The erroneous interpretation of this parable is simply a blind for belief in an immortal soul, when Jews were never taught about “heaven or hell” in their Scripture.

Taking figurative things and reading them literally is what steers people down the wrong path.

 

[Jack]

Jack, jack, jack

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Aunty Jane]

YOu are merely wrong. It is singular and not plural . Paul is blessing individuals in their body soul and spirit, no matter what the watchtowr teaches.

Its what the Bible teaches….”the body of Christ” is a singular entity, made up of many individuals.

Now you are merely playing word games to describe what the believers in the 1st -21st centuries know about man.

Animals are souls, man has a soul which is that part of a person that thinks, rationalizes feels etc.

Now, are you not playing with words? All the original Christians were Jewish and were taken out of that apostate religious system and placed in a completely different pen, by “the Fine Shepherd” who taught them God’s truth, not the twisted nonsense that they had been fed for centuries by those who promoted themselves and their teachings as truth. (Matt 15:7-9)

The Christians had to separate from that disunited crowd of misled people and come into a new arrangement….one that Jesus and his apostles established. Why? Because the the Jewish system was so far gone, that Jesus was sent “only to the lost sheep”….not to their incorrigible leaders.
Those educated at the Rabbinical Schools were at a decided disadvantage, not only being indoctrinated themselves, but passing on that false indoctrination to others…..Christendom is a mirror image.

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

I know the Watchtower feels it has the right to interpret and reinterpret Scripture as it sees fit, but they don't and all who follow them will finid out in the end.

What my brothers did was to reintroduce what original Christianity taught….NOT what the “weeds” of Christendom turned it into. Jesus parable of the “wheat and the weeds” made it clear that the devil would corrupt “Christianity” just as successfully as he had corrupted Judaism. Are you a victim?
Is what YOU believe, the same as what Jesus actually taught…..or is it too, a twisted interpretation of the original Scriptures?

Remembering that Jesus was Jewish, makes sure that the OT Scriptures do not get lost on us, thousands of years removed from the originals. The devil has had ample time to guide people into his web of lies…..and sadly it is the majority who are misled, because deception is more attractive than the cold hard facts of truth.….a slap in the face to many.

By his own admission, Jesus indicated that those being “saved” are “few”…..that those who choose “the cramped and narrow road” are in the minority, whilst the majority choose the easy road to death. (Matt 7:13-14)
Luke 13:24….
”Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able.”
Why will they “not be able”? Because they hang on to the false doctrines promoted in Christendom, just as the stubborn Jews hung onto the false doctrines of the Pharisees. Their end will be the same. Complete rejection. (Matt 7:21-23)

History repeats because people become “blind” to the lessons of the past. It’s a special kind of blindness. (2 Cor 4:3-4)….a perception or mind-set created by the devil…the sower of the “weeds” (Matt 13:24-30; 36-42) whose lies attract fallen humanity. He tickles their ears. (2 Tim 4:3)

The choices we make now will determine our eternal destiny…..we will have no excuses to offer the one sent to judge us all.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You’re raising a lot of questions, and it’s making me wonder what denomination you’re part of. It seems like we’re reading the same Bible but arriving at different interpretations, similar to how rabbis often offer a variety of answers to the same question.

There can only be one truth, and it’s up to us to “seek” it and to ask God to guide our steps in the right direction. The Jews were more of an ancient example of what not to do ,and what not to be if we want God’s approval. We learn so much from their failures rather than their fleeting successes. Fallen humanity keeps making the same mistakes, because we have lost the power to resist sin, stubbornly rejecting the truth because it’s not what we “want” to believe….or what we have convinced ourselves is right. Continual conflict results as people promote their own beliefs or the beliefs of the denomination they have accepted as teachers of truth.

Why does God permit this sad divisive situation? Because we are all on trial here. The devil has accused us (through Job’s trials) of not loving God for himself but only for what he can do for us. All he ever asked from us humans was obedience to his commands. So if we had just obeyed, and not relied on our own understanding, we never would have been thrust into this sorry excuse for a life.

Before we continue, could you let me know what denomination you’re affiliated with? That will help us better understand each other as we go forward in this discussion.

We have interacted before Johann….I was raised in Christendom, but as I grew up I realized that the church system was failing to be ”Christ-like” in their beliefs and practices. I began to question the doctrines I was raised with, and after undertaking a thorough study of the Bible in my early twenties, I withdrew from the divisive denominational “church” system altogether.

Christ does not exist in a hopelessly divided religious system that teaches the same lies. I came into contact with Jehovah’s Witnesses through a family member, and applied the same skepticism with them as I did with the churches, but to my complete surprise, I found myself drawn to their beliefs, which were backed up by Scripture in every instance. No one ever said “I think this means”…..the one thing that stood out for me was “the Bible says”….and there were no disagreements or divisions…all believed one truth. (1 Cor 1:10)

I investigated all things thoroughly for 2 years, before I committed myself to baptism, and I have been a “Witness for Jehovah” now for over 50 years. Bible study is my passion, and research is something I enjoy immensely. I am never disappointed after deep research to discover flaws in our Bible teachings.

But the one thing that I do not recommend is to study what is not Scripture. Only Scripture is “inspired by God” and to be used for “teaching and setting things straight”. (2 Tim 3:16-17)
So for me, if it’s not in God’s word and it’s interpretation falls outside of what Jesus taught, or outside of the Bible’s overall narrative, I will not spend much time on it….it is a fruitless exercise.

I already know that you do not hold JW’s in high regard, but Jesus and his disciples of the first century were also ostracized as being heretics.…hated and persecuted. I am proudly one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (John 15:18-21)

 

[Johann]

There can only be one truth, and it’s up to us to “seek” it and to ask God to guide our steps in the right direction. The Jews were more of an ancient example of what not to do ,and what not to be if we want God’s approval. We learn so much from their failures rather than their fleeting successes. Fallen humanity keeps making the same mistakes, because we have lost the power to resist sin, stubbornly rejecting the truth because it’s not what we “want” to believe….or what we have convinced ourselves is right. Continual conflict results as people promote their own beliefs or the beliefs of the denomination they have accepted as teachers of truth.

Why does God permit this sad divisive situation? Because we are all on trial here. The devil has accused us (through Job’s trials) of not loving God for himself but only for what he can do for us. All he ever asked from us humans was obedience to his commands. So if we had just obeyed, and not relied on our own understanding, we never would have been thrust into this sorry excuse for a life.

We have interacted before Johann….I was raised in Christendom, but as I grew up I realized that the church system was failing to be ”Christ-like” in their beliefs and practices. I began to question the doctrines I was raised with, and after undertaking a thorough study of the Bible in my early twenties, I withdrew from the divisive denominational “church” system altogether.

Christ does not exist in a hopelessly divided religious system that teaches the same lies. I came into contact with Jehovah’s Witnesses through a family member, and applied the same skepticism with them as I did with the churches, but to my complete surprise, I found myself drawn to their beliefs, which were backed up by Scripture in every instance. No one ever said “I think this means”…..the one thing that stood out for me was “the Bible says”….and there were no disagreements or divisions…all believed one truth. (1 Cor 1:10)

I investigated all things thoroughly for 2 years, before I committed myself to baptism, and I have been a “Witness for Jehovah” now for over 50 years. Bible study is my passion, and research is something I enjoy immensely. I am never disappointed after deep research to discover flaws in our Bible teachings.

But the one thing that I do not recommend is to study what is not Scripture. Only Scripture is “inspired by God” and to be used for “teaching and setting things straight”. (2 Tim 3:16-17)
So for me, if it’s not in God’s word and it’s interpretation falls outside of what Jesus taught, or outside of the Bible’s overall narrative, I will not spend much time on it….it is a fruitless exercise.

I already know that you do not hold JW’s in high regard, but Jesus and his disciples of the first century were also ostracized as being heretics.…hated and persecuted. I am proudly one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (John 15:18-21)

I'm not here to condemn you or the JW's, @Aunty Jane. To be honest, where I am, there are no real churches. Right now, I'm feeling like an empty shell, searching for a place where I can truly belong. My days of speaking negatively about others and their churches are behind me-I just need to find a church where I can quickly connect and fellowship.

Shalom to you and family.
Johann.

 

[face2face]

The idea that humans do not "have" a soul but "are" a soul aligns with the biblical understanding found in Genesis 2:7, where it says, "Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul (nephesh)." Here, the Hebrew word nephesh refers to the entire being or person, not something separate from the body. So, humans are "living souls," meaning that the body and life breath together form the whole person. This suggests that rather than possessing a separate entity called a soul, we are holistic beings—living souls composed of both body and spirit.

J.

Can I add Johann, as many in this forum see Spirit as a person in possession of an immortal essence, which is false. Body & Breath is Bible teaching.
F2F

 

[face2face]

I'm not here to condemn you or the JW's, @Aunty Jane. To be honest, where I am, there are no real churches. Right now, I'm feeling like an empty shell, searching for a place where I can truly belong. My days of speaking negatively about others and their churches are behind me-I just need to find a church where I can quickly connect and fellowship.

Shalom to you and family.
Johann.

Out of interest Johann, what Christian denominations are in your area?
F2F

 

[MatthewG]

I'm not here to condemn you or the JW's, @Aunty Jane. To be honest, where I am, there are no real churches. Right now, I'm feeling like an empty shell, searching for a place where I can truly belong. My days of speaking negatively about others and their churches are behind me-I just need to find a church where I can quickly connect and fellowship.

Shalom to you and family.
Johann.

J,

Hebrews 11:16-40

Love to you brother, keep your head up and keep fighting the good fight of faith over how you may "feel."

It's hard out here,

Matthew

 

[Johann]

Out of interest Johann, what Christian denominations are in your area?
F2F

Reformed and Baptists-Unfortunately.

J.

 

[Johann]

J,

Hebrews 11:16-40

Love to you brother, keep your head up and keep fighting the good fight of faith over how you may "feel."

It's hard out here,

Matthew

Thank you Matthew.

J.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'm not here to condemn you or the JW's, @Aunty Jane. To be honest, where I am, there are no real churches. Right now, I'm feeling like an empty shell, searching for a place where I can truly belong. My days of speaking negatively about others and their churches are behind me-I just need to find a church where I can quickly connect and fellowship.

Shalom to you and family.
Johann.

Have you tried contacting JW’s in your area? Ask them to study the Bible with you...attend their meetings and make up your own mind as to “what is truth”....I have found that JW’s live their faith as opposed to those who only indulge in it once a week at “church”.
We are all students of the Bible...a study course from which we never graduate.

What have you got to lose? You will know soon enough if these are the brethren you seek....the love they have among themselves is proof of their discipleship. (John 13:34-35)

Peace and blessings to you too J.

 

[Johann]

Have you tried contacting JW’s in your area? Ask them to study the Bible with you...attend their meetings and make up your own mind as to “what is truth”....I have found that JW’s live their faith as opposed to those who only indulge in it once a week at “church”.
We are all students of the Bible...a study course from which we never graduate.

What have you got to lose? You will know soon enough if these are the brethren you seek....the love they have among themselves is proof of their discipleship. (John 13:34-35)

Peace and blessings to you too J.

Correct, what have I got to lose?
I'll see what I can do.
Shalom
J.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Correct, what have I got to lose?
I'll see what I can do.
Shalom
J.

I hope you will feel at home like I did.....the feeling is one of peace and love...and a strong emphasis on Scripture as our only guide.
You can contact them via our website or phone them directly. They will treat you with love and kindness....and discuss with you all the topics that need discussing. Nothing is off limits.
There is no cost or obligation....you decide what to do with what you learn.

 

[Johann]

I hope you will feel at home like I did.....the feeling is one of peace and love...and a strong emphasis on Scripture as our only guide.
You can contact them via our website or phone them directly. They will treat you with love and kindness....and discuss with you all the topics that need discussing. Nothing is off limits.
There is no cost or obligation....you decide what to do with what you learn.

One question-do they have an outreach ministry helping the poor and the needy, drunkards, prostitutes, the homeless?
There's a reason I ask this @Aunty Jane.

Johann.

 

[Biblepaige]

The rich man and Lazarus is a parable in company with many other parables. To take any of it literally is absurd. Read it carefully and you will see the intent.

The rich man was never said to be wicked, nor was the beggar said to be righteous. The rich man merely ignored the plight of the beggar, who desired the crumbs or scraps falling from the rich man’s table. Picture it….did the rich man eat his meals at his gate, which is where the beggar was sitting.

When these men both “died”, they each went to a different place. The beggar was carried off to “the bosom of Abraham”, whilst the rich man languished in “hades” (which Jews knew to be the grave). He was tormented by the sight of the beggar being by Abraham’s side, whilst he was suffering in anguish, experiencing the heat of God’s anger when Jesus exposed the Jewish leaders for the lying hypocrites that they were.

So what is “the bosom of Abraham”? It was understood by the Jews to be a figurative position of favor with God. The rich man lost it, but the beggar gained it. What did this picture? With Jesus presence and his teachings exposing the false doctrines of the Pharisees, we see two groups of people pictured here….the rich man pictured the religious leaders, fat and happy with their lot in life, but failing to shepherd the spiritually impoverished ”beggars” under their care. These were ignored and treated as of no consequence. When Jesus came he fed those “lost sheep” and proved that they were precious to God.

The two “died” to their former condition, and changed places…….consequently, what the rich man lost, the beggar gained.
Now, ask yourself if a drop of water on a man’s finger would quench the thirst of one in literal flames?

What is the “chasm” that existed between where the Pharisees were, and where the beggar now was, that no one could cross? The two places represented God’s favor and his disfavor. The Jewish leaders were responsible to care for all of God’s sheep, not just the ones who groveled at their feet. Jesus sentenced the religious leaders to “Gehenna” for their failure to teach God’s word to his people and to care for them spiritually. Falsely translated as “hell”, “Gehenna“ represented a place or condition from which no one could return. (Matt 23:33) By rejecting the teachings of Jesus, their promised Messiah, these religious leaders condemned themselves to a place of eternal death. “The lake of fire” or “the second death” from which there is no resurrection.

“Hades” and “Gehenna” are two different places, but neither of them have conscious “souls“ in them.
The Jews had no belief in an afterlife because their Scripture did not teach it. (Eccl 9:5, 10; Psalm 115:17) They later adopted this belief from pagan ideas, just as Christendom did, interpreting these terms as indicating an afterlife that does not exist in reality. Believing that you ‘don’t really die‘, was the devil’s original lie in Eden…..and people still believe it….the devil still promotes it.

The Scriptures teach resurrection, which Jesus demonstrated when he raised his friend Lazarus (John 11:11-14)….a name he gave to the beggar in his parable as he was one such “lost sheep”, attracted to the teachings of Jesus Christ, along with his two sisters.

A resurrection is a return or restoration of life, not a continuation of it at death, passing over into some imagined spiritual realm.
Where was Lazarus before Jesus called him from his tomb? If he was in a better place, why bring him back to life, only to die again later? Did Lazarus relate a NDE? or in his case an “after death experience”?

The erroneous interpretation of this parable is simply a blind for belief in an immortal soul, when Jews were never taught about “heaven or hell” in their Scripture.

Taking figurative things and reading them literally is what steers people down the wrong path.

All I did was refer to Luke 16 in answer to the OP.

 

[Aunty Jane]

One question-do they have an outreach ministry helping the poor and the needy, drunkards, prostitutes, the homeless?
There's a reason I ask this @Aunty Jane.

Johann.

We are not like the churches J. We believe in personal deeds like the Good Samaritan offered them. Our “outreach” is personal...one on one. We believe that it is more beneficial to teach a man to fish than to simply provide him with charity.

We have helped many people to learn skills that will help them to get a job, especially in poor countries.

Programs provided by the churches simply aid and abet the situations that afflict the poor and needy as well as those lost in addictions and lifestyles from which they may not want to break free. We give people a hand up...not a hand out. We teach them to be self-sufficient, which gives them self-respect.

I have assisted a few addicted to alcohol to gain the help they needed and the motivation to control their addiction and to turn to God’s spirit instead of the one that comes in a bottle.

If a person is genuinely in need, God will provide.....needs and wants though are two entirely different things. He has never promised that we always get what we want......contentment with what we have, even if it is meagre should be enough while we are waiting for the coming of God’s Kingdom, which will eradicate all forms of failed human rulership, also eradicating pain and suffering.....and replace them with one world government under Christ, that will cater to “the desire of every living thing”.

Until then, we wait patiently for that reality to manifest itself at God’s appointed time.

Please feel free to PM me if you require more information.

AJ.

 

[Aunty Jane]

All I did was refer to Luke 16 in answer to the OP.

It pays to quote the person you are responding to.....

How else are people to know what you mean? And whom you are addressing?
Learn to be specific....