Biblical Authority

[Athanasius377]

Hi A,
I've found a good solution to the problem.
Just using OSAS as an example....
It seems to me to be apparent from scripture that this is a false teaching and is not supported by
either Jesus or any of the writers of the NT.

However, when addressing this issue, some members do post verses that SEEM to verify that once a person believes, God will keep that person saved no matter what.

A simple solution:
What did the Early Church Fathers believe?

They were taught by the Apostles and surely knew the correct answer.
It would seem to me that this alone should be sufficient to quelch this debate, however, since many will reply that these ECFs were not inspired, they won't accept this solution.

I would agree in principal. The ECF are a wealth of information. I will take another approach as someone who is a student of history. I think you are going to find that the ECF's will hold differing views on just about everything except perhaps baptismal regeneration and communion in both kinds. I have read a goodly amount of the ECF, at least those translated into English and primarily from the Schaff sets of the Ante-nicene and post-nicene fathers (series 1 and 2). I would suggest that anytime you hear someone state, "The consensus of the Early Fathers", or some variation there of, then you are dealing with someone who has not done a lot of reading of the ECF's. They may have known the answer. However, if they did then they did not write it down. Or more likely, the did write what they thought and that is the issue.

As to OSAS, I deny the current evangelical definition in that"
-I went to church a few times
-I was baptized and received Jesus in my heart.
-Now I am good to do whatever I want.

I do however acknowledge the doctrine Divine election and predestination. Meaning that God in Christ chose those who would be saved. As to the others, or reprobate? We are not told. To suggest that anyone knows goes beyond the pail of Scripture. I know it doesn't make logical sense but then again what is biblical isn't necessarily logical. We won't know how all the pieces fit together this side of heaven.

Augustine taught this, (though it is disputed if he taught double predestination, meaning the reprobate where passed over and meant for damnation). Irenaeus rejected the idea. 1 Clement seems to show Clement teaching predestination, while Justin Martyr denies the teaching. There is a whole lot more that can be said and there are nuances to the positions that I am glossing over. So what do you do when you have ECF's disagreeing?

A.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So....
Apparently this is a thing.

Does the church (man) have authority over the Scriptures
OR
Do the Scriptures have authority over the Church?

It's along similar lines of the old question paradox:

Does God have a Plan for me?
VX
What is God's plan and how can I be a part of it?

Scriptures are the authority of the church. any decree, doctrine or creed that deviates from Scripture is a violation of the authority of God as defined by Scripture.

God has two aspects for you rlife- HIs will and His plan.

His will is the same for everyone but His plan is unique to everyone. You find it by obeying His will for your life, then y0ou discover His plan for your life.

 

[GodsGrace]

I would agree in principal. The ECF are a wealth of information. I will take another approach as someone who is a student of history. I think you are going to find that the ECF's will hold differing views on just about everything except perhaps baptismal regeneration and communion in both kinds.

They also agree on "works".
That dirty word that so many Christians hate and refuse to accept.
Obedience would be another subject of agreement, something we have a problem with these days.

Of course I agree that they didn't agree 100% on everything or they held one nuance or another.
But, taking OSAS as an example, they all agreed that salvation could be forfeited.
At least the ones I read a little of...

I have read a goodly amount of the ECF, at least those translated into English and primarily from the Schaff sets of the Ante-nicene and post-nicene fathers (series 1 and 2).

I don't care for the post-Nicene fathers.
I respect them, but it's too far down the line for me and the church was already becoming political by being
involved with governments/or any governing body.

I would suggest that anytime you hear someone state, "The consensus of the Early Fathers", or some variation there of, then you are dealing with someone who has not done a lot of reading of the ECF's. They may have known the answer. However, if they did then they did not write it down. Or more likely, the did write what they thought and that is the issue.

Agreed.

I really use the NT. WHEN there's a real question, I like to see what the early Fathers thought/taught.

As to OSAS, I deny the current evangelical definition in that"
-I went to church a few times
-I was baptized and received Jesus in my heart.
-Now I am good to do whatever I want.

That's the perfect definition of OSAS.
We also have eternal security - which is my belief.
We have eternal security for as long as we obey God.
We also have Preservation of the Saints....God KEEPS some saved.
(reformed theology).

I do however acknowledge the doctrine Divine election and predestination. Meaning that God in Christ chose those who would be saved. As to the others, or reprobate? We are not told. To suggest that anyone knows goes beyond the pail of Scripture. I know it doesn't make logical sense but then again what is biblical isn't necessarily logical. We won't know how all the pieces fit together this side of heaven.

Whoa! You've confused me.
I also believe the bible speaks of predestination:
God predestined a nation --- Israel, from which to reveal Himself.
He predestined a plan of salvation even before the fall of Adam (God knows all that will happen).
He also predestined
HOW ...... In Christ
PURPOSE.. For a specific reason (Maybe Pharoah's hard heart, but it could be debated).

You mention reprobate and that tells me you're a bit calvinist.
I'm not sure you mean this or that you just mean that some are not chosen, for whatever reason, and you're just calling them reprobate.

You may wish to clarify or not....I can only say that if we're in the hands of the Reformed God, we're in bad hands and in deep trouble.

Augustine taught this, (though it is disputed if he taught double predestination, meaning the reprobate where passed over and meant for damnation). Irenaeus rejected the idea. 1 Clement seems to show Clement teaching predestination, while Justin Martyr denies the teaching. There is a whole lot more that can be said and there are nuances to the positions that I am glossing over. So what do you do when you have ECF's disagreeing?

A.

LOL
I DO depend on the bible and not on the ECFs.
I think I've had to look them up maybe a couple of times.
I can remember for:
WORKS I can remember specifically - although even the NT confirms this.

 

[GodsGrace]

Currently we have several denominations claiming that their churches have authority over scriptures.
Methodists (they are still splitting over this) Catholics, Episcopalians, and Greek Orthodox (and a few others) are claiming they have authority which supercedes scriptures. Two have gone so far that they no longer have the "Christian" moniker placed upon them by everyone else except themselves. (Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses)

So it's not an exclusively Catholic tradition to claim authority that supercedes scriptures. SDA are really close by claiming an ultra literalist interpretation of the Scriptures that they alone hold. Same with certain sects of Messianic Judaism (definitely not all). But we usually allow for cognitive biases and logical fallacies among the rank and file we deem "Christian".

Right.
I don't understand why the CC is so disliked.
They'll show you scripturally everything they believe....
They even have pretty good reasons for the assumption of Mary - which is pretty far afield.
(but no real biblical support in her specific case even though Elijah was also assumed into heaven).
Anyway, I'd rather not get too into this since I'm not even Catholic.
Just wondering why....

 

[Augustin56]

It's YHVH, whom is the authority.

How does YHVH govern? By his holy spirit.

View attachment 50371


What's YHVH's will for man? To believe on the Son whom was sent, and to Love God, and love others.


Those are my answer(s).

Authority can be delegated. This is what Jesus did with His Church. He delegated His Godly authority within His Church, first to Peter in Matt. 16:19. The keys that He gave Peter are a symbol of the dynastic office Jesus created, a second-in-command. Kings in Jesus' day had a second-in-command to rule the kingdom when the king was away at war, visiting other kingdoms, ill, etc. This second-in-command was recognized by the large key or two (2-3 ft. long) that he carried over his shoulder as a symbol of his authority. Whatever the second-in-command ruled in the king's absence was upheld by the king upon his return. THIS is exactly what Jesus was establishing in Matt. 16:19. And, the office was dynastic, i.e., it wasn't a one-off. If the second-in-command died, another was appointed in his place. Denying this office is denying Jesus' authority.

 

[Augustin56]

Scriptures are the authority of the church. any decree, doctrine or creed that deviates from Scripture is a violation of the authority of God as defined by Scripture.

God has two aspects for you rlife- HIs will and His plan.

His will is the same for everyone but His plan is unique to everyone. You find it by obeying His will for your life, then y0ou discover His plan for your life.

Roland, nowhere in Scripture does it say Scripture trumps the Church. In fact, St. Paul says in 1 Tim 3:15 that it is the Church that is the "pillar and foundation of truth" not someone personally interpreting his/her Scripture. The Church Christ founded, the Catholic Church, wrote the New Testament FROM the oral tradition (oral teaching) that Christ gave it. Jesus never wrote a book. He taught the Apostles orally. Then He commanded them to do the same (Matt. 28:20) Eventually, SOME of what was taught orally was written down. And eventually, SOME of what was written down was declared to be Scripture...BY the Church Christ founded at the Councils of Rome, Hippo. and Carthage in the late 4th century. You have a Bible because the Catholic Church compiled it.

When Saul (St. Paul by his Hebrew name) was going around persecuting the Church, Jesus knocked him off his horse and asked him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" (Acts 9:4) Note that Jesus didn't ask, "...why are you persecuting My Church?" which he was doing, but "...why are you persecuting Me?" If you persecute Christ's Church, you persecute Christ, because Christ identifies as one with HIs Church. Historically, the ONLY Church for the first 1000 years of Christianity was the Catholic Church. The Orthodox splintered off in 1054 A.D., and Protestantism didn't start until the 16th century.

 

[MatthewG]

@Augustin56

I believe in respecting governing authorities, but no need to go to any man to get to God. He is my authority when it comes to living by the spirit.

That is it, I have no other authority other than perhaps a job role or something. Law enforcement is authority, as a parent is an authority. Governing authorities are to be respecting.


But no man, can have authority to tell me what to do, once I'm 18.

If God is my Father, he can chastment, no problem.

 

[Augustin56]

@Augustin56

I believe in respecting governing authorities, but no need to go to any man to get to God. He is my authority when it comes to living by the spirit.

That is it, I have no other authority other than perhaps a job role or something. Law enforcement is authority, as a parent is an authority. Governing authorities are to be respecting.


But no man, can have authority to tell me what to do, once I'm 18.

If God is my Father, he can chastment, no problem.

Matthew, that's great that God is your authority. Jesus is God, yes? I certainly believe so. Jesus founded a Church and delegated His authority to it. So, if you follow Jesus, you will become a member of His Church, as He desires, In John 17:21, Jesus prayed "so that they may all be one." He wanted them to be of one faith and one belief. Not tens of thousands of denominations created by men 16 centuries laterr or more, without any authority to do so whatsoever. Anything these later groups teach that vary from what was taught from the beginning is heresy. Jesus wants you to have all of the fullness of truth and the gifts He set up for mankind, which can only be found in the Church He founded. It's about authority, Authority is given, not taken.

 

[JohnDB]

Right.
I don't understand why the CC is so disliked.
They'll show you scripturally everything they believe....
They even have pretty good reasons for the assumption of Mary - which is pretty far afield.
(but no real biblical support in her specific case even though Elijah was also assumed into heaven).
Anyway, I'd rather not get too into this since I'm not even Catholic.
Just wondering why....

Because of cognitive biases which lump them all together. Which essentially is prejudice. You are much more familiar with European Catholics which are radically different from American Catholics. Even Asian Catholics are different from other Catholics and the same goes for African Catholics.

Most people do not realize how much diversity exists within the Catholic Church or that many Catholics do not hold to all doctrines espoused by their local parish or diocese. They, like anyone else, are very nuanced and individualistic with their beliefs. Especially when the Pope is deemed to be "not a good pope" and wait for better days.

Everyone is an individual and forms their own unique relationship with God. Sure there is crossover....of course because God doesn't change. But the cognitive bias is that all Catholics are like the American Catholics. Which are truly an island of themselves. Rome would get involved with telling the American Catholics to behave better....but the American Catholics provide the lion's share of funding for the Vatican and its many ministries. So they stay silent.

 

[MatthewG]

@Augustin56 there is no material church that can save a soul.

No matter how many come to an alter.
Say the sinners prayer.

It’s a direct connection between the individual and Yahava whom Jesus gets a person to, who said the Father is seeking for those to worship him, the Father in spirit and truth.

Jesus was/is the Word of God, yes. In essence Jesus is the expressed heart of Yahavah.

Yahavah governs the heart of those who are his, by his Holy Spirit. He is the authority. Not some church that tells you, or manipulates, or try’s to control some person or try’s to say Jesus plus this this that and this.

I believe in faith without religious bondage.

 

[GodsGrace]

Part 1.


This is not speaking of Peter, but of the revelation from God to Peter that Jesus is the Son of God. Through faith in Him and Him only are we saved.

I WILL GIVE YOU THE KEYS TO THE KINGDOM....
is speaking about the revelation from God to Peter that Jesus is the Son of God?
How do you figure this CTK?

You see, I used to think like you and this was a good excuse for what the verse REALLY says.
Come to the scriptures with an open mind and find out what the verse actually is stating.

What you've posted here makes no sense and is only used by Protestants to explain their understanding of this verse.

No, Peter was not given the keys… the keys, just like the revelation given to Peter was to point to the faith in Jesus.. only through His sacrifice do we have salvation. Peter was no different than the other 11.

BUT
It says JESUS GAVE PETER THE KEYS.

HOW does that NOT mean that Jesus gave Peter the keys?

I don't read anything about sacrifices in this verse.
Stick to the verse and make sense of it.

If it states that Jesus is the only way, could you post the verse please?
(In Matthew 16).

Please reconsider- This scene is all about Jesus beginning to reveal to them that who He truly was… why He came to the earth, reveal that He was the only way.

I agree.
Does it state that Jesus is the only way?
I don't read that in these verses that we're discussing.
Where in Matthew 16 does it state that Jesus is the only way?

You're adding to chapter 16 words that are not there.

The Rock was the revelation that Jesus was the cornerstone, the rock cut out of the mountain Daniel 2:34, 2:44-45. This is not a prophecy about Peter nor is Isaiah about Peter.

I posted Isaiah because it shows that keys represent authority.
I'm not doubting or debating that Jesus is the cornerstone....

And I'm not here to discuss Daniel and the dream he was interpreting, which could have differing implications.
I'm discussing ACTUAL words that came out of the mouth of Jesus...

Yes, and thank you. Certainly did not mean Jesus. Jesus indeed returned to heaven but He did “set up” or “established” His church. And only after Pentecost would His disciples be sent out to preach the Good News. They were ALL Jews - “pottery clay” in Daniel. They were not sent out to build a Christian or Catholic Church, but the Good News to the Gentiles.

How do you think the good news is spread to the world?
Do you have a smart phone?
Did you just come upon it or did some company have to make it for you?
Do you think some type of institution is necessary for the word of God to be spread and taught or do you think
it could just spread by word of mouth and keep going in continuous fashion for over 2,000 years?

I'd say that some type of institution is necessary.
Like a church bldg for instance.
Or maybe you watch sermons on YouTube...that's an institution too.

There is absolutely nothing in the Scriptures or the writings if Paul or their relationship with him that remotely changed the way they felt and dealt about Peter. He would continue in his impetuous and dangerous ways and would have to be admonished by Jesus, by Paul and of course he would show just how little he knew about Jesus even after the Revelation from the Father that “Jesus was the Rock.” He would resort to cutting off the ear of the Jew and he would deny Jesus three times.

The I guess Jesus made a big mistake in choosing him....
who became one of the top Apostles and this is shown in scripture.
Peter was always around Jesus...
He discovered the empty tomb with John.
He was always first on any list of the Apostles.
He became the head of one of the largest churches at the time... the church of Rome.
Read some history please.

Peter was a fisherman not a scholar like Paul. If anyone were to be given a position of authority it certainly would not be Peter but Paul. But Jesus did not establish a hierarchy. God did not send His Messiah to fulfill all 6 of His commitments (9:24), sacrifice Himself on the cross, raise Him from the dead, only to turn His kingdom over to a “man.” This is all coming to the little horn - only the Roman Catholic Church could do such a thing for their own power and grandeur.

So only scholars could proclaim the word of God?
Here's what Paul said to the Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 2:1
1When I first came to you, dear brothers and sisters,a I didn’t use lofty words and impressive wisdom to tell you God’s secret plan.b 2For I decided that while I was with you I would forget everything except Jesus Christ, the one who was crucified.
3I came to you in weakness—timid and trembling.
4And my message and my preaching were very plain. Rather than using clever and persuasive speeches, I relied only on the power of the Holy Spirit.
5I did this so you would trust not in human wisdom but in the power of God.

I'll also tell you this:
In the early church whenever there was a dispute about some teaching....
the leaders of the other important regions of the area went to Peter to make a final decision.
If you want to read up on this, I'll tell you the regions in question:
ANTIOCH
JERUSALEM
ALEXANDRIA
ROME
CONTANTINOPLE

Again, please consider what you are professing- That Jesus is not the rock, the one we must turn to, rely on, and have complete faith in Him. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Jesus and Paul not anyone during that immediate period (before or after the cross) ever considered Peter any differently… Three times Jesus asked Peter “do you love me” … feed my sheep… He realized how Peter felt about betraying Him. Jesus was not telling the others that this Peter was the “rock” but that He forgave Him and brought him back from despair so he could preach the Good News. Jesus is God … no hierarchy was given to Peter … just come back and believe in Me (Jesus)… and go preach the Good News.

CTK, I have the feeling that I've been considering this a much much longer time than you have.
I have done much reconsidering in my lifetime.

I NEVER said that Jesus is not the One we should rely on and have complete faith in.
I'm not saying that Peter is the Messiah....
I'm stating to you that when Jesus said ON THIS ROCK, He means Peter and that Peter would build His church....
the PHYSICAL church which was necessary to spread the gospel.

If you remember, homes were used back then for meetings and worship and the sharing of communion.
A bldg/institution is necessary to solder the community.

It would take centuries before this idea about “Peter must be the first pope.” Only the RCC could create such a blasphemous interpretation to secure their need for power, control and greed… and worship!

This is your opinion because you haven't demonstrated any knowledge of the history of the Christian church.
There are many more blasphemies going on in the church this very day for us to be concerned about whether or not the CC wants to declare Peter the first Pope.

I don't even understand how this is blasphemous in your opinion, since God is not mentioned and we can only blaspheme against God.

I did not say that… I did say that Jesus used this term just minutes after He revealed that it was ONLY because the Father revealed this truth to Peter that Jesus was the “Rock.” Jesus Himself called Peter “Satan” and to “get behind Me,” because this same Peter failed to accept Jesus’ statement that He would soon die…

Jesus was addressing the influence of satan and not Peter.
Peter was being human...of course he didn't want Jesus to die.
Of course they didn't really understand until AFTER the resurrection.

I am not trying to discuss the RCC , but it is impossible to not bring in the ONLY people that have made this claim … because THEY need something / to grossly misinterpret Scripture to solidify and secure their power, need for worship, and even divinity. They are indeed the little horn of Daniel. They are the “vile” one in Chapter 11. Igor had revealed this little horn and all of his characteristics, evil doings, anti- Christ ways in Daniel, 2,7, 8, 9, and 11.

This is the same Rock which they contend began as Peter who have murder over 50 million people who dared to oppose their false teachings

Protestant theologians also understand that the rock is Peter.
It's plain in the grammar of the Greek.

Why would Jesus say. YOU ARE ROCK...
and then turn around and so:
BUT WAIT...no no no, I'M THE ROCK.

It makes no common sense even setting aside the language and meaning as refer to other verses (I posted just one in Isaiah).

 

[Augustin56]

@Augustin56 there is no material church that can save a soul.

No matter how many come to an alter.
Say the sinners prayer.

It’s a direct connection between the individual and Yahava whom Jesus gets a person to, who said the Father is seeking for those to worship him, the Father in spirit and truth.

Jesus was/is the Word of God, yes. In essence Jesus is the expressed heart of Yahavah.

Yahavah governs the heart of those who are his, by his Holy Spirit. He is the authority. Not some church that tells you, or manipulates, or try’s to control some person or try’s to say Jesus plus this this that and this.

I believe in faith without religious bondage.

MatthewG, for the sake of clarity, define for me what you mean by a "material church." Do you mean a building?

Let me give you a theological definition, if I may. Religion - the submission of one's will to the will of God. If that's bondage, then fine.

Jesus Christ is God. When Saul (Paul by his Hebrew name) was going around persecuting the Church, Jesus knocked him off his horse and asked him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?" Note that Jesus didn't ask him, "...why do you persecute My Church?" which he was actually doing, but, "...why do you persecute Me?" Jesus identifies as one with His Church. He founded one Church. If anyone attacks His Church, they attack Jesus.

 

[Episkopos]

Jesus didn't write a book to spread His truths. He founded a Church to do so.

Agreed. God is looking for a living testimony. The truth that is lived is a witness to the truth.

The Church founded by Christ, the Catholic Church, preceded the New Testament.

If you mean that disciples of Christ preceded the New Testament writings...yes.

In fact the athors of the New Testament were Catholics, inspired by the Holy Spirit.

There were no denominations at that time. There were simply city churches that were independent of each other. Each relying on the Lord and the gifts given to those particular disciples.

In the late 4th century, the Catholic Church at the Councils of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage prayed to the Holy Spirit for guidance, reviewed over 300 letters, books, writings, etc., and selected the 27 we today call the New Testament as being worthy of being called Holy Scripture. It is the Church that has the authority to interpret Scripture without error, not the individual.

No. The bible is understood by the Spirit.....by praying to God who is Spirit. Jesus said that we have no need that any man teach us for the Spirit will guide us into all truth. Only a disciple will understand this.

In fact, St. Peter warned against personal interpretation of Scripture with regard to prophecy (official teachings) in 2 Peter 1:20, which says, "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation". And, yet, this is what all Protestantism is based upon. Someone's personal interpretation of Scripture. That's why there are literally tens of thousands of man-made, doctrinally contradicting and disagreeing denominations (and counting). Hardly the grounding for truth and unity.

It's funny that traditions of institutional churches include MANY human interpretations...that are set against other carnal men that make up their own personal interpretations. So the argument is that a traditional human interpretation has precedence over personal interpretations.

But what about God? Is God limited to what we set up in His Name?

It's still Jesus building His church...outside the influence of men.

 

[GodsGrace]

Part 2

Certainly true but God prophesied about that as well. Jesus Himself stated that before He returned to His Father. But God also went into great detail about the coming of the little horn who would sit atop the 4th beast kingdom that would come to be known as the papacy / papal Rome AFTER pagan Rome was slain (7:11).

Sorry CTK, the above is not what we're discussing nor would I wish to discuss it because I think it's nonsense that Daniel would know that the 4th beast is the Papacy.

This is an opinion and I really don't think we Christians should be discussing opinions.

Well, we can leave out those denominations that call themselves Christians but are clearly not like the Mormons, etc. But more importantly, the RCC is literally the greatest deceiver since the cross! They profess Jesus but do not do what He commanded nor do they obey Him. They worship Him in vain!!!!

I wonder how?
Seems to me many right here on this forum make belief to worship but really don't.
It seems to me that the CC is one of the few churches left that teaches obedience to God, which I certainly believe to be necessary.

They have broken the first 4 of God’s commandments,

Huh?
Why?

they have claimed equality with God,

Do you go to one of those weird Catholic bashing churches that do put down other denominations instead of teaching how to love other Christian brothers?

they preach a very different gospel.

Which one?
Could you give some detail?

They do not claim that salvation comes only through the faith in Jesus…

How else does salvation come?
Through Jesus
Through obedience
and they teach that a lot of grace (God's love for man) is given through the sacraments.
It's kind of sad that we don't have these sacraments - which are all biblical BTW.

this list could go on for days YET, you and some 1.4 BILLION people follow this “god on earth.” They have corrupted His Word and His Testimony. This is so far from the teachings of His apostles who were sent out to preach the Good News.

I'm not Catholic.
I follow what Jesus taught.
He taught me to
LOVE GOD
LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF
Matthew 22:37

We have the Scriptures that are the inerrant Word of God- both the OT and the NT. Jesus certainly sent His disciples out into the Jews and Gentiles to preach the God News but He did not send them out to build a “church organization,” that would corrupt His Word and Testimony, set up THEIR OWN KINGDOM, murder anyone that did not accept THEIR false teachings, and so on.

Wow. Yeah. You have too much hate in you.
It hurts YOU more than it hurts the CC.

No they don’t. Take a simple test- on one side of the paper place the 10 commandments, then the teachings of Jesus, His thoughts on salvation, traditions and false teachings.
On the other side of the paper, write down their 10 commandments, their teachings on salvation, their rules and practices, their claim of infallibility, that Mary is a co-mediator, she was sinless, she was sent to heaven without dying. Purgatory, indulgences, priests can forgive sin, sacraments, on and on. Then tell me who the little horn of Daniel is. They do not follow in the ways of Jesus, they disobey His commands, but they do mention His name … they do claim He is the Son of God, but they also claim divinity, ability to change God’s laws, idols, etc. They worship Jesus in name only. They demand to be worshipped!

Every denomination teaches what THEY believe to be correct.
You should find out what the reformed church teaches and then answer all your question above and see what you come up with.

This is a perfect set of verses that speak to the little horn of Daniel (papacy / papal Rome). There afe more than a few Christian denominations the call themselves Christian, that believe in Jesus but they certainly do not follow His Words and His Testimony.

Many might agree that the Mormons, the SDA's, the Jehovah Witnesses, etc., are Christian churchs, yet their beliefs and practices are so not in line with what Jesus has commanded us to do. Well, there is no larger church that has moved even farther away from His teachings and the Words of God that the RCC.

Think about it: If any one of those churches claimed the head of their church was divine, equal to God, could forgive sins, change God's laws and commands, institute a different way of salvation where their treachings and their traditions superceded the Scriptures, created saints to be worshipped and prayed to, salvation only though their church, etc,, would you join that church? Of course you would not and these are only a sample of what they profess and practice against the Word of God....

If someone comes along as says they are the Christ........

No one has come along saying they are the Christ.

I think that's enough Catholic bashing for one day.
Don't reply unless you have something edifying to say.

 

[CTK]

I WILL GIVE YOU THE KEYS TO THE KINGDOM....
is speaking about the revelation from God to Peter that Jesus is the Son of God?
How do you figure this CTK?

You see, I used to think like you and this was a good excuse for what the verse REALLY says.
Come to the scriptures with an open mind and find out what the verse actually is stating.

What you've posted here makes no sense and is only used by Protestants to explain their understanding of this verse.



BUT
It says JESUS GAVE PETER THE KEYS.

HOW does that NOT mean that Jesus gave Peter the keys?

I don't read anything about sacrifices in this verse.
Stick to the verse and make sense of it.

If it states that Jesus is the only way, could you post the verse please?
(In Matthew 16).



I agree.
Does it state that Jesus is the only way?
I don't read that in these verses that we're discussing.
Where in Matthew 16 does it state that Jesus is the only way?

You're adding to chapter 16 words that are not there.


I posted Isaiah because it shows that keys represent authority.
I'm not doubting or debating that Jesus is the cornerstone....

And I'm not here to discuss Daniel and the dream he was interpreting, which could have differing implications.
I'm discussing ACTUAL words that came out of the mouth of Jesus...



How do you think the good news is spread to the world?
Do you have a smart phone?
Did you just come upon it or did some company have to make it for you?
Do you think some type of institution is necessary for the word of God to be spread and taught or do you think
it could just spread by word of mouth and keep going in continuous fashion for over 2,000 years?

I'd say that some type of institution is necessary.
Like a church bldg for instance.
Or maybe you watch sermons on YouTube...that's an institution too.


The I guess Jesus made a big mistake in choosing him....
who became one of the top Apostles and this is shown in scripture.
Peter was always around Jesus...
He discovered the empty tomb with John.
He was always first on any list of the Apostles.
He became the head of one of the largest churches at the time... the church of Rome.
Read some history please.


So only scholars could proclaim the word of God?
Here's what Paul said to the Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 2:1
1When I first came to you, dear brothers and sisters,a I didn’t use lofty words and impressive wisdom to tell you God’s secret plan.b 2For I decided that while I was with you I would forget everything except Jesus Christ, the one who was crucified.
3I came to you in weakness—timid and trembling.
4And my message and my preaching were very plain. Rather than using clever and persuasive speeches, I relied only on the power of the Holy Spirit.
5I did this so you would trust not in human wisdom but in the power of God.

I'll also tell you this:
In the early church whenever there was a dispute about some teaching....
the leaders of the other important regions of the area went to Peter to make a final decision.
If you want to read up on this, I'll tell you the regions in question:
ANTIOCH
JERUSALEM
ALEXANDRIA
ROME
CONTANTINOPLE




CTK, I have the feeling that I've been considering this a much much longer time than you have.
I have done much reconsidering in my lifetime.

I NEVER said that Jesus is not the One we should rely on and have complete faith in.
I'm not saying that Peter is the Messiah....
I'm stating to you that when Jesus said ON THIS ROCK, He means Peter and that Peter would build His church....
the PHYSICAL church which was necessary to spread the gospel.

If you remember, homes were used back then for meetings and worship and the sharing of communion.
A bldg/institution is necessary to solder the community.


This is your opinion because you haven't demonstrated any knowledge of the history of the Christian church.
There are many more blasphemies going on in the church this very day for us to be concerned about whether or not the CC wants to declare Peter the first Pope.

I don't even understand how this is blasphemous in your opinion, since God is not mentioned and we can only blaspheme against God.

Jesus was addressing the influence of satan and not Peter.
Peter was being human...of course he didn't want Jesus to die.
Of course they didn't really understand until AFTER the resurrection.


Protestant theologians also understand that the rock is Peter.
It's plain in the grammar of the Greek.

Why would Jesus say. YOU ARE ROCK...
and then turn around and so:
BUT WAIT...no no no, I'M THE ROCK.

It makes no common sense even setting aside the language and meaning as refer to other verses (I posted just one in Isaiah).

I would think it is safe to say that you have made your choices and are more than comfortable with them. God bless.

 

[CTK]

Sorry CTK, the above is not what we're discussing nor would I wish to discuss it because I think it's nonsense that Daniel would know that the 4th beast is the Papacy.

This is an opinion and I really don't think we Christians should be discussing opinions.


I wonder how?
Seems to me many right here on this forum make belief to worship but really don't.
It seems to me that the CC is one of the few churches left that teaches obedience to God, which I certainly believe to be necessary.

Huh?
Why?

Do you go to one of those weird Catholic bashing churches that do put down other denominations instead of teaching how to love other Christian brothers?


Which one?
Could you give some detail?


How else does salvation come?
Through Jesus
Through obedience
and they teach that a lot of grace (God's love for man) is given through the sacraments.
It's kind of sad that we don't have these sacraments - which are all biblical BTW.

I'm not Catholic.
I follow what Jesus taught.
He taught me to
LOVE GOD
LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF
Matthew 22:37

Wow. Yeah. You have too much hate in you.
It hurts YOU more than it hurts the CC.

Every denomination teaches what THEY believe to be correct.
You should find out what the reformed church teaches and then answer all your question above and see what you come up with.

No one has come along saying they are the Christ.

I think that's enough Catholic bashing for one day.
Don't reply unless you have something edifying to say.

Again, you are firm in your beliefs and that is your choice. Best wishes always.

 

[GodsGrace]

Because of cognitive biases which lump them all together. Which essentially is prejudice. You are much more familiar with European Catholics which are radically different from American Catholics. Even Asian Catholics are different from other Catholics and the same goes for African Catholics.

Yeah. I've been away a long time and even reading about topics is different than living them.

Most people do not realize how much diversity exists within the Catholic Church or that many Catholics do not hold to all doctrines espoused by their local parish or diocese. They, like anyone else, are very nuanced and individualistic with their beliefs. Especially when the Pope is deemed to be "not a good pope" and wait for better days.

Right. And even for the good Popes, which bishops and priests listen to more and tend to do what they say---this Pope is getting push-back from all sides.

As to diversity: You're absolutely correct. Not all priests believe the same and some even teach what they personally believe.
Some Catholics on this forum would be horrified to know this, but it's true.

Everyone is an individual and forms their own unique relationship with God. Sure there is crossover....of course because God doesn't change. But the cognitive bias is that all Catholics are like the American Catholics. Which are truly an island of themselves.

I wonder how.
Could you state it in 25 words or less? (as my brother would say).

 

[GodsGrace]

Again, you are firm in your beliefs and that is your choice. Best wishes always.

Oh my.
You only speak to those you THINK you could affect in changing their minds?
You must not post much.
Maybe one day you'll follow the path the bible leads you in,
instead of repeating what you hear --- wherever it is that you hear it.

 

[CTK]

Oh my.
You only speak to those you THINK you could affect in changing their minds?
You must not post much.
Maybe one day you'll follow the path the bible leads you in,
instead of repeating what you hear --- wherever it is that you hear it.
God

You are sadly mistaken. I have done no different than you or any other person within or without this forum. I have expressed my opinion on the Word of God and His plan of salvation for mankind.

I am not trying to change your mind ... that is the responsiblity of the Holy Spirit. He will provide all the power and wisdom to teach the Word of God and to walk in His ways and obey His commands. He will never fail.

There are some 1.4 BILLION Catholics around the world, and they follow the teachings and the gospel preached by the papacy. And like every individual on the planet, each of us have a choice on who to worship. I choose to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and His Messiah, Jesus. One God, and there is no other.

As I mentioned twice, you are certainly entitled to your own opinion - and each of us will be judged by the same God at the time of the resurrection. Best wishes.

 

[GodsGrace]

You are sadly mistaken. I have done no different than you or any other person within or without this forum. I have expressed my opinion on the Word of God and His plan of salvation for mankind.

I am not trying to change your mind ... that is the responsiblity of the Holy Spirit. He will provide all the power and wisdom to teach the Word of God and to walk in His ways and obey His commands. He will never fail.

There are some 1.4 BILLION Catholics around the world, and they follow the teachings and the gospel preached by the papacy. And like every individual on the planet, each of us have a choice on who to worship. I choose to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and His Messiah, Jesus. One God, and there is no other.

As I mentioned twice, you are certainly entitled to your own opinion - and each of us will be judged by the same God at the time of the resurrection. Best wishes.

OK Lets do this.
I'm not Catholic BTW.

So which gospel do you believe the Pope is teaching?