Are the trumpets and vials running in parallel like some insist?

[WPM]

Some of this you brought up is Shepherd's Chapel teachings. Therefore, irrelevant, since some of us reject Shepherd's Chapel teachings. I recognize Shepherd's Chapel teachings when I see them. I have been aware of Shepherd's Chapel since the mid 90s. That aside , though.

For example, vial 1. It is plain silly it is poured out during trumpet 1 if the time of trumpet 1 is not even involving the reign of the beast yet. IOW, in order for during trumpet 1 for vial 1 to be poured out, this would have to mean the 42 month reign of the beast precedes trumpet 1.

It would have to look like this.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Followed by trumpet 1 and vial 1.

Rather than this. Trumpet 1 followed by Revelation 13:1-5 followed by vial 1.

Though, it is logical that trumpet 1 precedes the beginning of the 42 month reign of the beast, it is not also logical that so does vial 1. From what I can tell, the beast begins it's 42 month reign during the 6th trumpet, not before the first trumpet.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

It makes zero sense to place this before trumpet 1 if it is not even until trumpet 6 that the beast begins reigning 42 months to begin with. Once again, it is silly to pour out vial 1 on these before they are even doing these things first. Until the beast starts it's 42 month reign during the 6th trumpet, in the meantime no one has the mark of the beast nor are worshiping his image yet. That can't happen until the beast rises out of the pit first, and another rises out of the earth. None of those things are true before the 1st trumpet sounds.

Why are some Premils reasoning some of these things like Amils do? Amils apparently must think these already have the mark of the beast and are already worshiping it's image before trumpet 1 even sounds. Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable for vial 1 to get poured out on them during trumpet 1, according to that thinking. While some of the rest of us don't think that it is reasonable based on, that as of trumpet 1 the beast hasn't even ascended out of the pit yet and begun it's 42 month reign. But we are to believe vial 1 gets poured out during trumpet 1, regardless?

Apparently, some Premils would prefer to continue reasoning things like Amils rather than actually agreeing with the texts involved, that it is not until trumpet 6 that the beast begins it's 42 month reign.

And besides, if seal 6 is meaning the 7th trumpet, no way then can trumpet 1 be meaning after seal 6. It has to be meaning before seal 6. That obviously places what trumpet 1 is involving before that of what seal 6 is involving. But it doesn't also place vial 1 before that of what seal 6 is involving.

# 32-34 above demolish your claims

 

[Davidpt]

# 32-34 above demolish your claims

I do recall seeing those two posts. Let's be reasonable here. If you insist the last 7 vials of wrath begin with trumpet 1, produce the Scripture in Revelation that informs us that the wrath of God begins with trumpet 1. That's how Pretribbers reason some of these things except you are not a Pretribber. What Scriptures are you going to submit that proves trumpet 1 begins the wrath of God including the 7 last vials? You obviously can't use the 6th seal to prove that if you have the 6th seal meaning the 7th trumpet. Everyone knows that 1 comes before 7 not after 7. Therefore, trumpet 1 followed by trumpet 2 followed by trumpet 3, etc. And not trumpet 7 followed by trumpet 1 followed by trumpet 2, etc.

 

[WPM]

I do recall seeing those two posts. Let's be reasonable here. If you insist the last 7 vials of wrath begin with trumpet 1, produce the Scripture in Revelation that informs us that the wrath of God begins with trumpet 1. That's how Pretribbers reason some of these things except you are not a Pretribber. What Scriptures are you going to submit that proves trumpet 1 begins the wrath of God including the 7 last vials? You obviously can't use the 6th seal to prove that if you have the 6th seal meaning the 7th trumpet. Everyone knows that 1 comes before 7 not after 7. Therefore, trumpet 1 followed by trumpet 2 followed by trumpet 3, etc. And not trumpet 7 followed by trumpet 1 followed by trumpet 2, etc.

What? Read what I wrote please.

 

[Davidpt]

The wrath poured out in the first trumpet is specifically directed “upon the earth” – or upon the land. The character of the wrath is described as “hail and fire mingled with blood” The consequence of this action is that the “third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.”

FIRST VIAL - upon the earth

Revelation 16:2-9 says, “And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.”

The first vial is also directed “upon the earth” however our attention is here brought to the consequence for the inhabitants of the land rather than the land itself. It also proves that the mark of the beast is not some last-of-the-last-days phenomenon; it has been around since Cain.

Look what your argument implies. If the beginning of the 42 month reign of the beast doesn't even begin until trumpet 6, for example, this means they get a free pass on vial 1. IOW, vial 1 is never poured out on anyone worshiping the beast during it's 42 month reign because it has already been poured out before that reign even begins. How anyone can think that is reasonable, is beyond me? That they can have the mark of the beast during it's 42 month reign, that they can worship it's image during it's 42 month reign, yet not have to face the wrath of the first vial. That vial was allegedly poured out much earlier.

Quit avoiding, produce the Scripture in Revelation that informs us the 1st trumpet is the beginning of the last 7 vials of wrath. And once again, obviously you can't use the 6th seal to prove that if you have that meaning the 7th trumpet. IOW, the first trumpet does not follow the 7th trump. Where then is there something else in Revelation that informs us that the 7 last vials of wrath begin with the first trumpet? What event or events just preceded the first trumpet judgment?

 

[WPM]

Look what your argument implies. If the beginning of the 42 month reign of the beast doesn't even begin until trumpet 6, for example, this means they get a free pass on vial 1. IOW, vial 1 is never poured out on anyone worshiping the beast during it's 42 month reign because it has already been poured out before that reign even begins. How anyone can think that is reasonable, is beyond me? That they can have the mark of the beast during it's 42 month reign, that they can worship it's image during it's 42 month reign, yet not have to face the wrath of the first vial. That vial was allegedly poured out much earlier.

Quit avoiding, produce the Scripture in Revelation that informs us the 1st trumpet is the beginning of the last 7 vials of wrath. And once again, obviously you can't use the 6th seal to prove that if you have that meaning the 7th trumpet. IOW, the first trumpet does not follow the 7th trump. Where then is there something else in Revelation that informs us that the 7 last vials of wrath begin with the first trumpet? What event or events just preceded the first trumpet judgment?

Read what i wrote. You are foisting your false teaching upon what I am arguing. Stop doing that. The vials and trumpets parallel each other.

 

[Douggg]

As you study the 7 vials and compare them to the 7 trumpets you cannot help but see that they parallel each other. This negates the chronological approach.

I made a chart based on the trumpets and vials running parallel to each other (although there are conflicts in that approach) to reflect your position.

Notice trumpet 2 and vial 2 would be in conflict with each other. trumpet 4 and vial 4 would be in conflict will each other as well.

The first four trumpets (1,2,3,4) apply to "a third of" for each of those. While the vials are mostly global in nature (just read my chart horizontally for only the vials and you see what I mean). The one that is not global is vial 5, which is on the beast's kingdom.

So while some vials and some trumpet do run in parallel with each other. Others do not. (You can right click on the chart and "open in new tab" to make it larger, if you want)

 

[Douggg]

@WPM

One of the trumpet actions, the third woe trumpet, lasts across the first two woe trumpets - due to the nature of its duration of being a time/times/half time long. And since the 7th vial is right before Jesus descends to earth, look at the second chart down below.

 

[WPM]

@WPM

One of the trumpet actions, the third woe trumpet, lasts across the first two woe trumpets - due to the nature of its duration of being a time/times/half time long. And since the 7th vial is right before Jesus descends to earth, look at the second chart down below.


View attachment 50401


View attachment 50402

You are wasting your time presenting charts to me. I do not read them. I only engage with the Word. Please refrain. I have ignored them for years, since I realized they were misrepresenting Revelation.

 

[Douggg]

You are wasting your time presenting charts to me. I do not read them. I only engage with the Word. Please refrain. I have ignored them for years, since I realized they were misrepresenting Revelation.

Your words are not "the Word". Your notion that all the trumpets and all the vials parallel each other is wrong.

The trumpets 1-4 act as a group and take pace in the first two and a half years after Satan is cast down to earth. Then the vials 1-7 of God's wrath will be poured out over the last one year of Satan's remaining time, times, half time.

trumpets 5-6 will take place during that one year as well.

 

[Douggg]

You are wasting your time presenting charts to me. I do not read them. I only engage with the Word. Please refrain. I have ignored them for years, since I realized they were misrepresenting Revelation.

So I guess you are telling us that you and Spiritual Israelite are the same person. As you and him are the only two persons who have ever told me that.

 

[WPM]

So I guess you are telling us that you and Spiritual Israelite are the same person. As you and him are the only two persons who have ever told me that.

Lol. Just because two people do the same thing that means they're the same person? That is ridiculous. That exemplifies what we are dealing with here. You're totally blind to the folly of your charts and the impotence of your argument.

You are obviously not listening to what other people have told you about your charts.

 

[Douggg]

Lol. Just because two people do the same thing that means they're the same person? That is ridiculous. That exemplifies what we are dealing with here. You're totally blind to the folly of your charts and the impotence of your argument.

You are obviously not listening to what other people have told you about your charts.

Let's see, you and Spiritual Israelite joined the forum about a month apart. Coincidence ?

He has 3,993 thumbs up likes. And you have 3,402. Coincidence ?

And I have never seen you and Spiritual Israelite disagree on anything.

 

[WPM]

Let's see, you and Spiritual Israelite joined the forum about a month apart. Coincidence ?

He has 3,993 thumbs up likes. And you have 3,402. Coincidence ?

And I have never seen you and Spiritual Israelite disagree on anything.

Lol. Believe the lie and make yourself happy. This typifies the nonsense Amils have to put up from Pretribbers like you. The devil is the false accuser. Are you going to apologize when you are proved wrong?

It is against the rules to have 2 identities here.

 

[TribulationSigns]

View attachment 50400

First, the seals, trumpets, and vials are all about Christ's millennial kingdom through the CHurch and the judgment of the unfaithful Church at the end "AFTER" the building of the church is complete when Satan will be loosened from the bottomless pit to be used by God to judge his unfaithful Church. It is all about the judgment that begins in the House of God FIRST!

The unsaved of the world won't be judged until the Second Coming and the Great White Throne. The UNFAITHFUL of the CHurch are judged, and their judgment is that they receive the mark of the beast. The rest are ALREADY in the Devil's camp (so to speak), but this "THIRD PART" are those deceived of the congregation to believe a lie and receive this spiritual marking they "think" is the spirit of the gospel to preach in the CHurch, but what is really the mark of the beast to preach his deadly doctrine there! The spirit of anti or substitute Christ, because he rules there now instead of God For example:

Rev 8:12
(12) And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Rev 8:8-9
(8) And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
(9) And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

The "sea" here represents the world, okay? This Third Part represents the EXTERNAL CHURCH as it sits in the world, Selah! So this Third Part is turned to wormwood where those in it receive the number of the beast (2/3 or 666) in order to buy and sell (with the satanic doctrines). And the rest of the world (the sea) does not repent from their evil doings even in the face of this! The judgment of God upon the Church doesn't phase them. The increasing wickedness you see in the world today is the spiritual symptoms of the unfaithful church under judgment! All of this has NOTHING to do with national Israel or physical plagues as Dougg likes you to believe. It has to do with God's unfaithful congregation, Babylon the Great, and how she affects the world when she no longer does the work of God.

Rev 16:19
(19) And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

This hearkens back to the Lord's judgment upon His people in three different ways to signify His will and purpose is accomplished in this. The number three is symbolic of the will and purpose of God. He destroys them by plagues, by the Sword and by famine. In this judgment upon His people by 3 parts is illustrated this is brought upon them by God that His purpose is accomplished in this great judgment upon HIS HOUSE. Go read Ezekiel 5 for yourself, and you will see this example of judgment upon a people divided into three parts, destruction by plague, famine and sword. These three symbolic of the destruction of the unfaithful.

Eze 5:12-13
(12) A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.
(13) Thus shall mine anger be accomplished, and I will cause my fury to rest upon them, and I will be comforted: and they shall know that I the LORD have spoken it in my zeal, when I have accomplished my fury in them.

Here you go. THREE PARTS! The plagues which are likened to spiritual boils or diseases, the famine which is a lack of hearing the word of God, and the sword which is the word of God that is against them. Thus shall that once great city be divided into three parts and fall hearkening back to (or in remembrance of) Babylon before God (Ezra 5:12), to give to her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Rev 16:21
(21) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

This is talking about a spiritual delusion! Or Spiritual insanity because they would not receive God's truth in love. "This" is the plagues God has brought upon them because of their hard hearts. Not about literal big balls of ice falling upon your head. Spiritual discernement, dude!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Let's see, you and Spiritual Israelite joined the forum about a month apart. Coincidence ?

He has 3,993 thumbs up likes. And you have 3,402. Coincidence ?

And I have never seen you and Spiritual Israelite disagree on anything.

Worthless childplay. What is more important here is have you read and "received" what God's Word is saying instead of complaining about their screenames?

 

[Jay Ross]

So I guess you are telling us that you and Spiritual Israelite are the same person. As you and him are the only two persons who have ever told me that.

Not so. I have also said that your charts do not represent scripture and as such they are wrong. Your Charts do not represent the presented timeline given in scripture.

Your understanding is a figment of your own imagination wrapped around the mistaken beliefs of the Pre-trib Rapture theories.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let's see, you and Spiritual Israelite joined the forum about a month apart. Coincidence ?

He has 3,993 thumbs up likes. And you have 3,402. Coincidence ?

And I have never seen you and Spiritual Israelite disagree on anything.

Are you for real, Douggg? You are obviously jealous that he and I agree on things related to end times while no one agrees with you about anything. And you're probably jealous that we each have way more likes than you do (only 198). You obviously missed the thread where he and I disagreed about things related to salvation (disagreed about the TULIP doctrines). Why would you think it's not possible for two people to agree on the truth about end times doctrine? That's ridiculous. The reason that no one agrees with you is because your doctrine is so convoluted and messed up, that it's not even possible for anyone to agree with it.

The reason he joined a month after I did is because I invited him to come here as I believe the discussions here had become better than the discussions on another forum we were posting on.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Lol. Believe the lie and make yourself happy. This typifies the nonsense Amils have to put up from Pretribbers like you. The devil is the false accuser. Are you going to apologize when you are proved wrong?

It is against the rules to have 2 identities here.

LOL! I can't even believe that people like Dougggggg are for real. Thinking we are the same! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow, I get a lot of laughs from reading some of the nonsense posted here.

So, while we do agree on almost everything end times related, our styles of posting are clearly not the same. No offense, but your posts tend to be longer than mine, on average. I wouldn't create a thread where I used 3 or more posts to make my points at the beginning as you have done, for example. And there are other differences in how we post that anyone paying attention would notice as well. Except Douggg. LOL.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So I guess you are telling us that you and Spiritual Israelite are the same person. As you and him are the only two persons who have ever told me that.

As if it's only possible for one person to not care for your charts? I guarantee we're not the only ones who have no use for your charts. My goodness, just when I thought you couldn't possibly be any more ridiculous you go and prove me wrong with this nonsense.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not so. I have also said that your charts do not represent scripture and as such they are wrong. Your Charts do not represent the presented timeline given in scripture.

Your understanding is a figment of your own imagination wrapped around the mistaken beliefs of the Pre-trib Rapture theories.

Agree. But, now he's going to accuse you of being me, too. LOL.