Are the trumpets and vials running in parallel like some insist?

[Spiritual Israelite]

I guess I meant post # 16.. I guess I thought the 6 was an 8 or something when I glanced at the number of it.

Don't take this personally, but it's hard for me to follow what you said in that post. It seems like you do believe the seals and trumpets are parallel? Is that right. If so, why not the vials as well?

Can you please just answer these questions: Do you believe that the seventh trumpet and the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54) are the same? If so, that would mean Christ returns at the seventh trumpet, right? So, what does that say about the vials then? We shouldn't expect that His wrath will take long to come down when He returns, right? Or do you think it will take an extended period of time? I'm trying to figure out what your understanding is of the timing of the vials. Until you clarify that, I'm not going to understand your view on this topic.

 

[ewq1938]

The trumps are entirely different events aside from all the vials being poured once the 7th trump sounds. The differences between the first 6 vials and the first 6 trumps makes that quite clear.

Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

This also proves that they are not the same. The first trump is long before the period when the mark of the beast is given out, which is in the 6th trump yet the first vial punishes those who had taken the mark in the 6th trump. How do you punish for taking the mark before the mark is ever given out?? The mark of the beast only appears in the 6th trumpet not in any trumpet before it.


Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
Rev 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Same general location, "the sea" but all the details are quite different. In the trump only thirds take place such as a third of living creatures died yet in the vial everything dies not merely a third. What we see is a greater plague than what happened in the trump. God's wrath is stronger!


Rev 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Rev 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.


Rev 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

Again only a third in the trump and the vial does not speak of Wormwood nor a falling star. The location is simply the same basic location of rivers and fountains and only in the vial is there a mention of becoming blood and no mention of anyone dying.




Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.


Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.


Sun and moon mentioned in the trump, in thirds again but no mention of the moon in the vial nor the sun harming anyone. Extremely different accounts. No one can make these into the same events told in different ways since the differences are far too vast.

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.


Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Here we have very different account. One a star falls, opens the pit and locust come out which is obvious the preparation of the coming beast system that will control the world but the vial only shows the kingdom of the beast being punished and plagued showing yet again that this is after the events of the trump. You can't punish the beast and it's peoples if the beast hasn't even risen to power and committed it's sins yet!


Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Rev 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.


Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

The trump speaks of a third of men dying but the vial does not speak of any deaths only pain and sores nor does it speak of this evil army harming everyone. The vial actually speaks an army being raised which will eventually face off against Christ and his army in Rev 19. The same river is mentioned in both but all the details are completely different. That is a pattern in the trumps and vials that lets us know they are not the same events.



Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


Only these match events and timeframe and that is no surprise because all 7 vials pour once the 7th trump sounds. These are the only pair that actually match and can be said to be speaking of the same events.

 

[Davidpt]

Don't take this personally, but it's hard for me to follow what you said in that post. It seems like you do believe the seals and trumpets are parallel? Is that right. If so, why not the vials as well?

Can you please just answer these questions: Do you believe that the seventh trumpet and the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54) are the same? If so, that would mean Christ returns at the seventh trumpet, right? So, what does that say about the vials then? We shouldn't expect that His wrath will take long to come down when He returns, right? Or do you think it will take an extended period of time? I'm trying to figure out what your understanding is of the timing of the vials. Until you clarify that, I'm not going to understand your view on this topic.

I'm sure you and I agree that the 6th seal is the 7th trumpet, correct? Which obviously means trumpet one doesn't chronologically follow seal 6. Obviously, if seal 6 is trumpet 7, the other 6 trumpets have to occur during the first 5 seals. But even so, that doesn't mean the same has to be true of the vials . And one reason why, per my view seal 5 and the little season in view is meaning the beast's 42 month reign. keeping in mind that vial one is being poured out on those worship the beast and it's image.

It makes no sense that the vials of wrath would be being poured out on anyone before the beast begins reigning first. And besides, we should already be getting a clue from the text that none of the vials of wrath are already in progress to begin with if they are saying this at the time--saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?(Revelation 13:4). As if it makes sense, that if they are being bombarded with the vials of wrath at the time, that anyone would then be saying, who is able to make war with him? Revelation 19 already proves the wrath of God involves making war with.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Compared with.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?


Revelation 13:4 contradicts Revelation 19:11, 15, if any of the vials of wrath are already in progress when they ask that question. Not saying anyone actually says that. John is just making a point here is all, that they perceive the beast as someone or something that no one would dare mess with, that it's too powerful, no one is a match for it. It trumps everything. Might not be best way to put it but I'm sure you get the idea of what I'm trying to say at least.

 

[ewq1938]

I'm sure you and I agree that the 6th seal is the 7th trumpet, correct?

Almost. It describes some of the 7th trump events. It gives prophecy of some of the events of the 7th trump. It's events do not happen when it is opened. John merely saw future events when each seal was opened.

 

[Davidpt]

Almost. It describes some of the 7th trump events. It gives prophecy of some of the events of the 7th trump. It's events do not happen when it is opened. John merely saw future events when each seal was opened.

Of course, I fully agree unless I'm misunderstanding you or something, that John was seeing future events pertaining to the final days of this age and not also involving the time period John was living in at the time. And besides, if the first 6 trumpets happen during the 5 seals, what in the past can fit what trumpet 1 is describing? For example, can that fit anything in the first century? I don't see how. I don't know how anyone could, though I suspect Preterists somehow can. Probably why I'm not a Preterist since the idea is to try and make sense of the text, and I see it making zero sense that trumpet one fits anything in the first century, nor the 2nd century, nor the 3rd century, so on and so on.

 

[Douggg]

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm sure you and I agree that the 6th seal is the 7th trumpet, correct? Which obviously means trumpet one doesn't chronologically follow seal 6. Obviously, if seal 6 is trumpet 7, the other 6 trumpets have to occur during the first 5 seals. But even so, that doesn't mean the same has to be true of the vials . And one reason why, per my view seal 5 and the little season in view is meaning the beast's 42 month reign. keeping in mind that vial one is being poured out on those worship the beast and it's image.

It makes no sense that the vials of wrath would be being poured out on anyone before the beast begins reigning first. And besides, we should already be getting a clue from the text that none of the vials of wrath are already in progress to begin with if they are saying this at the time--saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?(Revelation 13:4). As if it makes sense, that if they are being bombarded with the vials of wrath at the time, that anyone would then be saying, who is able to make war with him? Revelation 19 already proves the wrath of God involves making war with.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Compared with.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?


Revelation 13:4 contradicts Revelation 19:11, 15, if any of the vials of wrath are already in progress when they ask that question. Not saying anyone actually says that. John is just making a point here is all, that they perceive the beast as someone or something that no one would dare mess with, that it's too powerful, no one is a match for it. It trumps everything. Might not be best way to put it but I'm sure you get the idea of what I'm trying to say at least.

I don't know what you're saying. I asked straightforward questions, but you don't give straightforward answers for some reason. I'll try again.

Do you believe that the seventh trumpet and the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54) are the same? Yes or no? If so, that would mean Christ returns at the seventh trumpet, right? Yes or no?

So, what does that say about the vials then? We shouldn't expect that His wrath will take long to come down when He returns, right? Or do you think it will take an extended period of time?

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.


Notice something here. This is obviously meaning the time pertaining to not worshiping the beast and then being martyred for not worshiping it, that era of time has been fulfilled and is now in the past. IOW, there are no more martyrs ever again at this point in time. And guess what? Every single vial, all 7 of them, are poured out after Revelation 15:2 is meaning, not before Revelation 15:2 is meaning.

Is this part of the topic or did you derail your own thread in the OP?

I think chapter 15 is an example of a time stamp for the parenthetical parts outside of the listed events. The events themselves called the 7 Seals, the 7 Trumpets, the 7 Thunders (most people ignore these altogether), and the 7 vials.

But why do you call those on the sea of glass martyrs? Do you have victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name? I ask, because if you do, do you also call yourself a martyr?

To explain the time frames, which all relate in someway to the days of the 7th Trumpet, one must first properly divide Revelation 12. Revelation 15 is mentioned in Revelation 12. And being an overcomer does not always indicate one is martyred.

The first time stamp in Revelation 12 is about the birth of Jesus. Jesus was not martyred as an infant to overcome Satan.

"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

No one was martyred who fled in these verses. Yet we know these are overcomers, because Jesus even though He was crucified was not a martyr, but the Lamb of God. Those protected still overcame. It was by the Blood of the Lamb they overcame, not because they were martyred.

"And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth."

This is directly about those on the sea of glass. Nothing about being martyred, nor even on the earth. An attempt at persecution, yes, but the woman was given wings, and these are those who wait on the sea of glass. And this is directly involving the 7th Trumpet.

Those on the sea of glass have the victory because they are waiting for the 42 months on earth to pass. They were not martyred, because what Satan used to try to kill them was thwarted. The same with the 144k in chapter 14. They are waiting on heavenly Mount Zion, while those in chapter 15 are waiting on the sea of glass.

The 7th Trumpet has already sounded. The 7 vials are after this 42 month period. The beheaded are those on earth who get the victory over Satan during these 42 months. But the victory only happens when their head is chopped off. They are not waiting on the sea of glass, because they never left earth to wait on the sea of glass. Those on the sea of glass are not those beheaded. Those beheaded are beheaded on earth while those on the sea of glass are waiting protected from the goings on, down on the earth.

Revelation 11 is not involving the 6th Trumpet. Revelation 11 is the 7th Trumpet time frame, not the 6th Trumpet time frame.

I mentioned at the top of this post that people ignore the 7 Thunders. Why is that? Revelation 11 happens after the 7 Thunders. The 6th Trumpet happens prior to the 7 Thunders. Those waiting on the sea of glass are waiting there while the temple is left for the Gentiles and while the 2 witnesses are on the earth for 1260 days. Revelation 11:1-13 is a parenthetical about the 7th Trumpet.

This verse is not a time stamp. This verse is a literary thought putting one back into the action after the parenthetical.

"The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly."

The two witnesses are not part of the second woe. The second woe (in chapter 9) happened prior to the 7 Thunders, which happened back in chapter 10. None of Revelation 10, 11, nor 12 is about the 6th Trumpet. John was just telling you all that were sidetracked in chapter 10, that we are now back to the 7th Trumpet.

 

[Timtofly]

This post of yours that I'm responding to is post #18, so you must mean some other post.


Yes, I understand that this isn't just an Amil vs. Premil issue.


I already did point that out in post #4. Please read it again.

Please answer this question. Do you believe that the seventh trumpet and last trumpet are the same? I assume you believe Jesus returns at the last trumpet? If you believe that is the same as the seventh trumpet, then explain how it's even possible that you wouldn't see the trumpets and vials as being parallel? Unless you think the vials are poured out in rapid succession after the seventh trumpet sounds. Is that how you see it? Please answer that question so that I can have a better understanding of how you see things playing out.

How would Paul know about the 7th Trumpet that was written about after Paul had physically died. Obviously Paul was referring to a last Trumpet, but not referreing to the event called the 7th Trumpet.

John may or may not have been referencing the same Trumpets at all. If both were referring to the feast of Trumpets, Obviously John had a very different take on the feast of the Trumpets.

Now let us come up with a plausible connection. Let us say that Gabriel who announced the birth of Christ will be the one blowing the 7th Trumpet. Now there is nothing to say that Gabriel will not announce the Second Coming with a Trumpet even though Paul did not name the archangel.


Now it is plausible that Gabriel only has one Trumpet....


That Trumpet may have been used several times throughout history. Are you adamant that the Second Coming will happen in the last trumpet of the feast of Trumpets? Do angels blow those trumpets or humans?

Revelation 19 does not mention a trumpet at all. Would you then rule out that chapter as being the Second Coming, since we already have the 7th Trumpet sounding years prior to Revelation 19?

Not even the 7th Seal, nor 7th vial of God's wrath addresses Revelation 19.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How would Paul know about the 7th Trumpet that was written about after Paul had physically died. Obviously Paul was referring to a last Trumpet, but not referreing to the event called the 7th Trumpet.

Who inspired both Paul and John to write what they did? That is what matters here. Do you think that the Holy Spirit did not know at the time He inspired Paul to write 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 that He was also going to inspire John to write the book of Revelation? Is that just an idea that God came up with some time after Paul wrote 1st Corinthians? No, it's not.

So, the same Holy Spirit who inspired Paul to write about the last trumpet already knew that He was going to inspire John to write about the seventh trumpet as well. How else should the last trumpet be understood except as the last prophetic trumpet to sound? And the seventh trumpet will be the last prophetic trumpet to sound.

 

[Timtofly]

Who inspired both Paul and John to write what they did? That is what matters here. Do you think that the Holy Spirit did not know at the time He inspired Paul to write 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 that He was also going to inspire John to write the book of Revelation? Is that just an idea that God came up with some time after Paul wrote 1st Corinthians? No, it's not.

So, the same Holy Spirit who inspired Paul to write about the last trumpet already knew that He was going to inspire John to write about the seventh trumpet as well. How else should the last trumpet be understood except as the last prophetic trumpet to sound? And the seventh trumpet will be the last prophetic trumpet to sound.

John was not inspired. John saw the actual event happen and wrote it down. That is the point you are missing. John did not write under inspiration, nor had inspired visions. John gave us a symbolic pattern of actual events that he was a witness to.


"And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not."

Was John writing in his sleep? Did John explain, that he wrote after he woke up? There is no Second Coming attached to the 7th Trumpet event that John wrote down when it happened. John was caught up in the Spirit on the Lord's Day.

The same as this: Acts 8:39-40

"And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea."

Are you saying that Philip was only inspired to dissappear and go somewhere else, not that he was actually physically moved between locations by the Holy Spirit?

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

Are you saying that John only thought he entered heaven?

I pointed out that Gabriel could be the archangel sounding the 7th Trumpet, but there were 7 angels.


Were there seven physical Trumpets, or did John just had a vision of events, and did not hear nor see actual Trumpets? Which is it? Are the Trumpets just symbolic having a particular meaning, and not a series of Trumpets at all?

The Last Trumpet may sound for over 3.5 years. Is that literal or prophetic?

 

[WPM]

Meaning trumpet 1 and vial 1 are the same event. Trumpet 2 and vial 2 are the same event. So on and so on.

Let's start with these 2 verses.

Revelation 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.


If these are the same event, when does the 2nd angel quit blowing his trumpet and then start pouring out his vial?

You are totally wrong on this. This is weak reasoning.

As you study the 7 vials and compare them to the 7 trumpets you cannot help but see that they parallel each other. This negates the chronological approach.

Note what is highlighted in blue, and see the parallel.

FIRST TRUMPET - upon the earth

Revelation 8:7-13 says, “The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.”

The wrath poured out in the first trumpet is specifically directed “upon the earth” – or upon the land. The character of the wrath is described as “hail and fire mingled with blood” The consequence of this action is that the “third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.”

FIRST VIAL - upon the earth

Revelation 16:2-9 says, “And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.”

The first vial is also directed “upon the earth” however our attention is here brought to the consequence for the inhabitants of the land rather than the land itself. It also proves that the mark of the beast is not some last-of-the-last-days phenomenon; it has been around since Cain.

SECOND TRUMPET - upon the sea

Revelation 8:8-9 says, “And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.”

The wrath poured out in the second trumpet comes in the form of what is described as, “as it were a great mountain burning” which is cast into “the sea.” This event causes the third part of the sea to turn to blood. The consequence being that “the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.” Thus we see that a third part of the fish life is destroyed in this incident. Furthermore, the third part of the ships that were in the sea are destroyed.

SECOND VIAL - upon the sea

Revelation 16:3 says, “And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.”

The second vial is also poured out upon the sea again causing it to become as blood. However, instead of addressing the creatures in the sea or even the ships upon the sea, this passage looks at the souls (or human beings) in the sea. We learn that, “every living soul died in the sea.” This does not in any way contradict the parallel with the second trumpet as it is worth noting here that animals or fish life don’t have souls.

The result of this catastrophic judgment is that:-

1. Every living soul died in the sea.
2. The third part of the creatures which were in the sea died
3. The third part of the ships were destroyed

I believe there is a clear distinction between all three.

THE THIRD TRUMPET - upon the rivers and fountains of waters

Revelation 8:10-11 says, “And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters (the nations) became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.”

The judgment of the third trumpet, in the form of a great star, falls upon “the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters.” We are again reminded that the source from whence this judgment came is “from heaven.”

Wormwood is a poisonous plant of great bitterness which is alluded to from time to time in Scripture. It is a substance that can be drank and is repeatedly given to men as a means of judgment. It is always employed in Scripture in the context of bitterness, sorrow and calamity.

Lamentations3:15 says, “He hath filled me with bitterness, he hath made me drunken with wormwood.”

Jeremiah 23:15 says, “Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall.”

It is interesting that when this judgment is poured out in the third trumpet it is directed towards the source of mans drinking water - the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters.

Regardless of the symbolic nature of this usage, the consequence of this judgment is that the waters become undrinkable. This passage says that “the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.”

THIRD VIAL - upon the rivers and fountains of waters

Revelation 16:4-7 says, “And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. And I heard the angel of the waters (the nations) say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.”

Whilst the third vial confirms that the judgment is directed towards “the rivers and fountains of waters,” the third trumpet details the fact that this judgment poisons “the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters.” The third vial, however, explains how this judgment causes the “the rivers and fountains of waters” to become “blood.” The vial and the trumpet here, in agreement, describe how a large part of the world’s drinking water becomes undrinkable.

Finally, the third vial outlines the reason why the waters are turned to blood, explaining, “For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.”

 

[WPM]

Meaning trumpet 1 and vial 1 are the same event. Trumpet 2 and vial 2 are the same event. So on and so on.

Let's start with these 2 verses.

Revelation 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

If these are the same event, when does the 2nd angel quit blowing his trumpet and then start pouring out his vial?

FORTH TRUMPET - upon the sun

Revelation 8:12-13 says, “And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!”

FOURTH VIAL - upon the sun

Revelation 16:8-9 says, “And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.”

The forth vial concentrates solely upon the greater light the sun, with its pre-eminent light, describing how God smites it and employs it “to scorch men” with “great heat.” This results in the damned blaspheming “the name of God”

Significantly, the fourth angel, of the fourth trumpet, looks ahead to the impending final three trumpets and cries, “Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!” The worst is still yet to come.

FIFTH TRUMPET - the followers of anti-Christ afflicted with grievous pain

Revelation 9:1-4: “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Revelation 9:5-11: “And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.”

FIFTH VIAL - the followers of anti-Christ afflicted with grievous pain

Revelation 16:10-11 says, “And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast (the anti-Christ system of this world - intra-Advent); and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.”

SIXTH TRUMPET – a catastrophic final battle emanating from that great river Euphrates

Revelation 9:14-21: “Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.”

Here we see modern day armoury described in 1st century language. How else would even the most meticulous of disciples describe a modern day tank or a modern day battlefield. How else could he express to early believers a future scene which was amazing to his eyes.

The casualty list is unprecedented in modern day warfare when the “third part of men” are slain.

SIXTH VIAL – a catastrophic final battle

Revelation 16:12-16 says, “And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of [1] the dragon, (Satan) and out of the mouth of [2] the beast, and out of the mouth of [3] the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

The reading finishes with an admonition to the reader, saying, “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.”

Whilst it would be possible to surmise that the beast (the anti-Christ system of this world - intra-Advent ) is ‘all those who belong to the devil’, Revelation 20 seems to disprove that possibility as the beast (the anti-Christ system of this world - intra-Advent ) precedes (verse 10) all those who are not found within the book of life (verse 20).

 

[WPM]

Meaning trumpet 1 and vial 1 are the same event. Trumpet 2 and vial 2 are the same event. So on and so on.

Let's start with these 2 verses.

Revelation 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

If these are the same event, when does the 2nd angel quit blowing his trumpet and then start pouring out his vial?

SEVENTH TRUMPET - the end!

Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second Coming. We will the symbolism shortly.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also makes reference to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious Second Coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

We must first of all recognise, this is the second of seven similar symbolic parallels relating to intra-advent period, each of which take us up to the one final future all-consummating Coming of Christ (the day of God’s wrath) and the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). This pattern of repeating the record of the same event from different angles is common throughout Scripture on most themes, none more that the glorious Coming of Christ.

The third parallel in Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind.

Revelation 11:18-19: “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

SEVENTH VIAL - the end!

Rev 16:17-21: "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."

Here we see a vivid record of Satan’s great concluding ‘devilish gathering’ just prior to the one final future Coming of Christ. The seventh vial portrays an unmistakable description of the all-consummating Second Coming.

Conclusion

Revelation actually agrees with every other book in the Bible and proves that there is only one future coming of Christ and that the end is the end. This is such a stark contrast to the Pretrib position that has no actual support in the wording of Revelation or in the rest of Scripture.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I don't know what you're saying. I asked straightforward questions, but you don't give straightforward answers for some reason. I'll try again.

Do you believe that the seventh trumpet and the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54) are the same? Yes or no? If so, that would mean Christ returns at the seventh trumpet, right? Yes or no?

So, what does that say about the vials then? We shouldn't expect that His wrath will take long to come down when He returns, right? Or do you think it will take an extended period of time?

It will be interesting to see if Davidpt will answer your question honestly.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I have heard often from people asking how long is it between the time the first vial is poured out to the time the last vial is poured out? Some say it's seven years to line up with the seven vials.

Seriously? I asked them for Biblical validation that these vials are poured out over seven years!

I believe that this is a very popular misconception in theology, that the seven vials represent things happening in stages at different times, one taking place after the other. The same misconception that some have that the seven churches of Asia represent seven different periods that run one after the other. I don't believe that. Not at all! God often uses the number seven to signify "completeness," rather than to declare something is seven particular, different things. For example the Seven Spirits of God. There is not seven spirits of God, there is only ONE Spirit of God, but the number 7 signifies completeness in its ministry all over the world. Selah! Now why does the Living Creatures in the midst of the throne have 7 eyes and 7 horns? Why are there 7 seals on the book in Revelation? Why are there 7 lamps of fire burning before the throne? Why are there 7 stars in the right hand of Christ? And so on and so forth, is because the number 7 signifies the completeness of whatever is in view, including the 7 heads of the Beast. Those 7 stars in Christ's hand signified the completeness of His messengers (church). Likewise the 7 vials signify the completeness of God's final judgment poured out on the earth, because of the prayers of the saints.

Revelation 21:9

• "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife."

These vials were full of the seven last plagues, or the seven [eschatos] plagues, and that is why there were seven of them, to signify completeness--not to show that seven different events would take place at seven different times, taking place one after the other, blah blah blah, like Douggg is trying to do here. We have to keep in mind, this is a revealing, a revelation, or more correctly put a group of revelations in symbolic imagery showing the same things (God's magnificent salvation and judgment program) over and over again. God says something in one chapter, and will say the exact same thing, with different symbolic imagery in another chapter. Revelation is in NO WAY chronological in its order of things revealed in imagery. For example, Christ is in the church in Revelation 2, the sealing of Israel ends in Revelation 7, and Christ is born in Revelation 12. Huh? Obviously not in chronological order!

Anyway, I believe that these seven vials being poured out run concurrently. In other words, we are receiving in revelations, seven portraits of the same event, each revealing a different aspect of what will be taking place. Much like having seven portraits of the Revolutionary war, each showing a different aspect of that one war, by a different picture. Or as Christ is seen as the Vine in one place to highlight one thing, the Lamb of God in another place to highlight another, and the Holy Temple to highlight still something else. It's not three separate prophesies of Christ, it's simply using different imagery to illustrate Him as the true Israel (Vine), that He is the Sacrifice (Lamb), and that He is House of God (Temple) in whom we dwell. Get it? In this same way these seven vials are numbered to seven to signify "completion" (as the 7 churches or angels or spirits, etc.), while these judgment plagues are one judgment, the portraits concurrent. They are all one event.

Look at the the pains and sores of Revelation 16:11 poured out in the 5th vial. Do you notice that the same sores poured out in the first vial? Or as the 3rd vial poured out made the waters and rivers turn to blood, and the 2nd vial poured out on the sea had already made it turn to blood. Does it means that God will do the seas first and then go to the rivers and fountains? Not at all, it's the same event of bringing death, but highlighting different aspects of this judgment. The plagues are operating simultaneously upon the earth and they are spoken of as seven to instruct us of the completeness of God's wrath upon them. This is the end time judgment wherein every stone of the Temple will be thrown down, the kingdom become void of life of light, and this signified by blood and darkness, as there is now no healing for the torment of pain and sores. The reason is because the whole house of Israel has been sealed, the testimony of the two witnesses is finished and the day has come when no man can work for the kingdom of God. There is no repentance by them for their abominations and they continue to blasphemy because the Lord has cut them off, despite the plagues falls upon them!

 

[Davy]

Meaning trumpet 1 and vial 1 are the same event. Trumpet 2 and vial 2 are the same event. So on and so on.

Let's start with these 2 verses.

Revelation 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.


If these are the same event, when does the 2nd angel quit blowing his trumpet and then start pouring out his vial?

....

Revelation is about only 7 main SIGNS of the end that Jesus originally gave in His Olivet discourse. The order of the Seals in Rev.6 follow the order of SIGNS He gave in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

This is why we see some of the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials being in parallel.

It simply that many fail to grasp this because they are too busy looking at the trees and thus cannot see the forest.

The last 3 Trumpet periods with each have a Woe attached is given for special emphasis by Lord Jesus about the end.

Many of the Revelation symbols are meant in the 'spiritual' sense, and not in the literal sense. Same in the Old Testament prophets, where many of the events of Revelation are also mentioned. If I recall, starting around Isaiah 24 through several chapters some scholars call "The Apocalypse of Isaiah".

The SIGNS of the end leading up to Jesus' 2nd coming uses a metaphor of birthing pangs of a woman in labor to give birth. The events keep compounding until the "day of the Lord", the last day of this world when Jesus comes with His army and the battle of Armageddon takes place, ending this present world.

The Revelation 13:1 beast kingdom represents a 'repeat' of Satan's original beast kingdom that he first rebelled against God with, drawing a third of the angels with him in that rebellion back in the old world (Rev.12:3-4). God destroyed that old world, and brought this present 2nd world earth age we have been in since Gen.1:2 forward. If this is not understood, then this final world beast kingdom of Rev.13:1 won't be understood, and the fact that Satan himself is coming to earth in plain sight, to sit over it and claim to be GOD, working great signs and wonders that If possible, would deceive even Christ's very elect. The world powers that are in control over today's earth, and are mostly hidden, are... worshipers of Lucifer.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Meaning trumpet 1 and vial 1 are the same event. Trumpet 2 and vial 2 are the same event. So on and so on.

Let's start with these 2 verses.

Revelation 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.


If these are the same event, when does the 2nd angel quit blowing his trumpet and then start pouring out his vial?

Revelation 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets

Where does it say in the text that to them were also given 7 vials? After all, vials have to be given to them first before they can pour them out. Obviously.

Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Where does it say in the text that they are also to go out and blow their trumpets?

Between these trumpets and vials, how many angels should we assume it is involving? 7 or 14?

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.


Notice something here. This is obviously meaning the time pertaining to not worshiping the beast and then being martyred for not worshiping it, that era of time has been fulfilled and is now in the past. IOW, there are no more martyrs ever again at this point in time. And guess what? Every single vial, all 7 of them, are poured out after Revelation 15:2 is meaning, not before Revelation 15:2 is meaning.

Let's now to go to Revelation 11, which is involving the 6th trumpet.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Does it look like Revelation 15:2 has already been fulfilled at this point, meaning as of the 6th trumpet, that there are no more martyrs? Keeping in mind that none of vials of wrath are poured out until there is first no more martyrs. IOW, during the vials of wrath and even after the vials of wrath, there is not one single martyr during any of that.

Yet, some would have us believe that the trumpets and vials are running in parallel when the 6th trumpet alone contradicts that since saints are still being martyred, where as, as of Revelation 15:2 no saints are being martyred anymore, and that none of the vials of wrath are being poured out before Revelation 15:2 is meaning. They are being poured out after Revelation 15:2 is meaning. Keeping in mind, Revelation 15:2 is undeniably meaning the martyring of saints have been fulfilled, no saint will ever be martyred again at this point in time.


Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


IOW, as of Revelation 15:2, it equals this--their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled--that this has been fulfilled. Then the vials start getting poured out after that.

How can anyone dispute any of this and still insist the trumpets and vials are running in parallel?

My view is, it is during the 7th trumpet when any of the vials are being poured out. None of the vials of wrath precede the 7th trumpet. Which then means that the time of the 7th trumpet couldn't possibly involve a single 24 hour day or less, since there is no way 7 vials of wrath can fit a single 24 hour period. Nor can the 7th trumpet be involving the 42 month reign of the beast like some interpreters insist. And Revelation 15:2, for one, proves it if one was able to follow what I argued throughout, above.

They run consecutively, not concurrently. The trumpets (I believe) occur in the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation and the vials occur in the second 3 1/2 years. Jesus described the time after the Antichrist stands in the holy place as the most dreadful time in human history. Comparing the trumpets and bowls show totally different results after each trumpet sounds and each bowl is poured.
The trumpets are horrible but the vials are far far worse.

 

[WPM]

They run consecutively, not concurrently. The trumpets (I believe) occur in the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation and the vials occur in the second 3 1/2 years. Jesus described the time after the Antichrist stands in the holy place as the most dreadful time in human history. Comparing the trumpets and bowls show totally different results after each trumpet sounds and each bowl is poured.
The trumpets are horrible but the vials are far far worse.

# 32-34 above demolish your claims.

 

[Davidpt]

Revelation is about only 7 main SIGNS of the end that Jesus originally gave in His Olivet discourse. The order of the Seals in Rev.6 follow the order of SIGNS He gave in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

This is why we see some of the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials being in parallel.

It simply that many fail to grasp this because they are too busy looking at the trees and thus cannot see the forest.

The last 3 Trumpet periods with each have a Woe attached is given for special emphasis by Lord Jesus about the end.

Many of the Revelation symbols are meant in the 'spiritual' sense, and not in the literal sense. Same in the Old Testament prophets, where many of the events of Revelation are also mentioned. If I recall, starting around Isaiah 24 through several chapters some scholars call "The Apocalypse of Isaiah".

The SIGNS of the end leading up to Jesus' 2nd coming uses a metaphor of birthing pangs of a woman in labor to give birth. The events keep compounding until the "day of the Lord", the last day of this world when Jesus comes with His army and the battle of Armageddon takes place, ending this present world.

The Revelation 13:1 beast kingdom represents a 'repeat' of Satan's original beast kingdom that he first rebelled against God with, drawing a third of the angels with him in that rebellion back in the old world (Rev.12:3-4). God destroyed that old world, and brought this present 2nd world earth age we have been in since Gen.1:2 forward. If this is not understood, then this final world beast kingdom of Rev.13:1 won't be understood, and the fact that Satan himself is coming to earth in plain sight, to sit over it and claim to be GOD, working great signs and wonders that If possible, would deceive even Christ's very elect. The world powers that are in control over today's earth, and are mostly hidden, are... worshipers of Lucifer.

Some of this you brought up is Shepherd's Chapel teachings. Therefore, irrelevant, since some of us reject Shepherd's Chapel teachings. I recognize Shepherd's Chapel teachings when I see them. I have been aware of Shepherd's Chapel since the mid 90s. IOW, to use Shepherd's Chapel teachings as an argument is not a valid argument. That aside, though.

For example, vial 1. It is plain silly it is poured out during trumpet 1 if the time of trumpet 1 is not even involving the reign of the beast yet. IOW, in order for during trumpet 1 for vial 1 to be poured out, this would have to mean the 42 month reign of the beast precedes trumpet 1.

It would have to look like this.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Followed by trumpet 1 and vial 1.

Rather than this. Trumpet 1 followed by Revelation 13:1-5 followed by vial 1.

Though, it is logical that trumpet 1 precedes the beginning of the 42 month reign of the beast, it is not also logical that so does vial 1. From what I can tell, the beast begins it's 42 month reign during the 6th trumpet, not before the first trumpet.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

It makes zero sense to place this during trumpet 1 if it is not even until trumpet 6 that the beast begins reigning 42 months to begin with. Once again, it is silly to pour out vial 1 on these before they are even doing these things first. Until the beast starts it's 42 month reign during the 6th trumpet, in the meantime no one has the mark of the beast nor are worshiping his image yet. That can't happen until the beast rises out of the pit first, and another rises out of the earth. None of those things are true before the 1st trumpet sounds.

Why are some Premils reasoning some of these things like Amils do? Amils apparently must think these already have the mark of the beast and are already worshiping it's image before trumpet 1 even sounds. Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable for vial 1 to get poured out on them during trumpet 1, according to that thinking. While some of the rest of us don't think that it is reasonable based on, that as of trumpet 1 the beast hasn't even ascended out of the pit yet and begun it's 42 month reign. But we are to believe vial 1 gets poured out during trumpet 1, regardless?

Apparently, some Premils would prefer to continue reasoning things like Amils rather than actually agreeing with the texts involved, that it is not until trumpet 6 that the beast begins it's 42 month reign.

And besides, if seal 6 is meaning the 7th trumpet, no way then can trumpet 1 be meaning after seal 6. It has to be meaning before seal 6. That obviously places what trumpet 1 is involving before that of what seal 6 is involving. But it doesn't also place vial 1 before that of what seal 6 is involving.