Biblical Authority

[Augustin56]

So, what's your point? No matter how it came about, it still is the authoritative Word of God, as 2 Timothy 3:16 and 17 as well as 2 Peter 1 attest to.

Bruce, that's a good question. My question is, if it is erroneously interpreted, is it still God's word? Or do interpretations not matter? Let me give you an example. The Baptists claim that infant Baptism is invalid. The Lutherans claim it is valid. Both groups read the same Bible and claim to be led by the same Holy Spirit in their interpretation of the Bible, but come up with contradictory interpretations. They cannot both be right, can they? The Holy Spirit is not the spirit of confusion or contradicion. So, where does the buck stop? What assurance can be obtained that anyone's interpretation is correct? How can we account for 30 or 40 thousand different-believing denominations? Is getting God's word 100% correct important, or does it not matter? Something to ponder.

 

[GodsGrace]

The first statement is true. That is called sola Scriptura meaning there is no higher authority than the God breathed scripture. That is not to say that the church doesn’t have authority, as it certainly does. That is not to say that tradition is not an authority as the Lutheran reformer Martin Chemnitz in his work, “Examination of the Council of Trent” observed. Chemnitz observes there are seven types of tradition that can be followed yet only six can be done so without without violating the commands of Scripture. Read vol 1 of the examination to hear what Chemnitz explains on the matter. Yet Jesus followed tradition by observing Hanukah and going to Synagogue. However Jesus also ripped the Pharisees for traditions that contradicted the Scriptures like the corban rule and the washing of the hands. Chemnitz picks up on this and condemns said traditions. And, I would add, condemns Rome as modern Pharisees for the same. I have to agree.

I was responding to another member in my post no. 11 who said this:

Do the Scriptures have authority over the Church?). We have the authority that was given to us, in Jesus Name. Or else I didnt understand the question, lol. In a roundabout way, the word of God has authority over the church, because it tells us what to do and how to live!
And we (the church) are admonished in scripture to not add to it do not take away from it, sh the church has zero authority over the word of God.

As you can see, the other member was stating that we have authority in Jesus' name.
And he also stated that the word of God has authority over the church....and he states the reason....
because it teaches us how to live.

You pulled out a snippet of my comment, which some "journalists" also do....
and thus you've missed my entire point.

I wasn't addressing Tradition, if not -maybe- in a roundabout way.

So, I'll also pose my question to you:
Is OSAS a correct doctrine?

I ask this because either side can post some verses to support their view.

So, HOW can we know which view is correct?
Since it would seem that the Holy Spirit speaks to all of us...

 

[GodsGrace]

Bruce, that's a good question. My question is, if it is erroneously interpreted, is it still God's word? Or do interpretations not matter? Let me give you an example. The Baptists claim that infant Baptism is invalid. The Lutherans claim it is valid. Both groups read the same Bible and claim to be led by the same Holy Spirit in their interpretation of the Bible, but come up with contradictory interpretations. They cannot both be right, can they? The Holy Spirit is not the spirit of confusion or contradicion. So, where does the buck stop? What assurance can be obtained that anyone's interpretation is correct? How can we account for 30 or 40 thousand different-believing denominations? Is getting God's word 100% correct important, or does it not matter? Something to ponder.

 

[Athanasius377]

So, I'll also pose my question to you:
Is OSAS a correct doctrine?

I was reading on my phone so I probably missed the context. It was not intentional.

The short answer is yes. Allow me to clarify: I am not supporting the mistaken notion that some have that by saying a prayer that you checked a box and are good to go. Rather, that God chose us before the foundation of the world in Christ and will not fall away. As such, those believers will naturally bear good fruit and persevere to the end. Those who check a box by responding to an altar call or emotionally confess faith at a church camp and then live like heathens are not believers and never were.

Deuteronomy 14:2	For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
John 15:16–17	16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.
Romans 8:29–30	29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
1 Corinthians 1:26–31	26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
Ephesians 1:3–14	3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
1 Peter 2:9	But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. Crossway Bibles, 2016

 

[GodsGrace]

I was reading on my phone so I probably missed the context. It was not intentional.

The short answer is yes. Allow me to clarify: I am not supporting the mistaken notion that some have that by saying a prayer that you checked a box and are good to go. Rather, that God chose us before the foundation of the world in Christ and will not fall away. As such, those believers will naturally bear good fruit and persevere to the end. Those who check a box by responding to an altar call or emotionally confess faith at a church camp and then live like heathens are not believers and never were.

Deuteronomy 14:2	For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
John 15:16–17	16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.
Romans 8:29–30	29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
1 Corinthians 1:26–31	26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
Ephesians 1:3–14	3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
1 Peter 2:9	But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. Crossway Bibles, 2016

OK Anthanasius
I'll try again because you seem like a nice guy.

I'm not here to discuss OSAS, which, BTW, is not biblical,

What I asked you is this:
IF we have TWO differing opinions, and I repeat OPINIONS....
HOW can we know which of the two opinions is correct?

 

[amadeus]

But there are other examples in Scripture where Jesus delegates His heavenly authority to the first heirarchy of His Church, the Apostles. It is not by the power of the individuals with the authority. It is not something they take, like Protestants who create their own denomination. This is God-given authority.

Would you say then that among those you name as Protestants who were never personally associated with the Catholic Church that God never delegated His authority to even one of them? Has God never led such a man to start a church group which was, or was to become, a part of the Church of God?

Are there not individuals outside of the formal structure of the Catholic Church who are a part of the Church of God? Has not the Catholic Church recognized the connection of such groups or individuals as pleasing to God?

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

John 1:14. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among men.

Jesus is the very embodiment or manifestation of God's word.

Sorry but I'm not going to differ on this and claim that man or the church has authority over scriptures.

I completely agree!

 

[CTK]

John, I suspect you don't fully understand authority. Athority is given, not taken. Jesus gave His authority to the Apostles who gave that authority to their successors, the bishops, who have done likewise for 2000 years now.

Just to pick one example, let's look at John 20:21. Jesus is appearing to the Apostles in the upper room. He says to them, "...As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” Well, how did the Father send Jesus? With ALL heavenly authority! Jesus is delegating His heavenly authority to the Apostles! Let's read a little further, in John 20:22-23. And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” Only two times in all Scripture, did God "breathe" on man. Once when He created Adam (Genesis) and once here. Period. Then, Jesus tells the Apostles that THEY have His heavenly authority to forgive sins! This is where the Sacrament of Confession comes from.

But there are other examples in Scripture where Jesus delegates His heavenly authority to the first heirarchy of His Church, the Apostles. It is not by the power of the individuals with the authority. It is not something they take, like Protestants who create their own denomination. This is God-given authority.

I really hate to ask this but I would imagine you believe the Peter is the Rock as was the first pope?

 

[GodsGrace]

I really hate to ask this but I would imagine you believe the Peter is the Rock as was the first pope?

Jesus referred to Peter as the rock.
The rock upon which He would build his church.
In fact, Peter and Paul were the main missionaries for Jesus' new church.

I used to believe that Jesus came to set up a spiritual church...which would be the Body of Christ.
He certainly did that, and also the Kingdom of God on earth which is different still.

But Jesus realized, toward the end when He saw that the Jews would not accept His teachings, that it would also be necessary to build a physical church to which His new converts could become members in order to follow His teachings.

Anyone that wants to be intellectually honest will have to admit that it would have been very odd to tell Peter that HE was the rock, and then turn around and say that Jesus HIMSELF was the rock. Very bad grammatically.

As to the first Pope, Peter was the first Bishop of Rome who then became known as Pope.
So the CC likes to call Peter the first Pope --- I don't think it's correct, but there are denominations that do worse,
so I'm willing to let it go.

And @Augustin56 will answer for himself.

 

[CTK]

I was reading on my phone so I probably missed the context. It was not intentional.

The short answer is yes. Allow me to clarify: I am not supporting the mistaken notion that some have that by saying a prayer that you checked a box and are good to go. Rather, that God chose us before the foundation of the world in Christ and will not fall away. As such, those believers will naturally bear good fruit and persevere to the end. Those who check a box by responding to an altar call or emotionally confess faith at a church camp and then live like heathens are not believers and never were.

Deuteronomy 14:2	For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
John 15:16–17	16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.
Romans 8:29–30	29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
1 Corinthians 1:26–31	26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
Ephesians 1:3–14	3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
1 Peter 2:9	But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. Crossway Bibles, 2016

Hebrews 6:4-6
:
"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."
This verse emphasizes the gravity of turning away from Christ after having experienced salvation. It suggests that falling away from the faith after knowing the truth of Christ leads to severe spiritual consequences.

Hebrews 10:26-27:

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."
This passage warns that for those who knowingly reject Jesus and continue in sin, there remains only the expectation of judgment, as Christ's sacrifice no longer covers willful rebellion.
These verses highlight the seriousness of rejecting Jesus after receiving the truth of the gospel.

 

[CTK]

Jesus referred to Peter as the rock.
The rock upon which He would build his church.
In fact, Peter and Paul were the main missionaries for Jesus' new church.

I used to believe that Jesus came to set up a spiritual church...which would be the Body of Christ.
He certainly did that, and also the Kingdom of God on earth which is different still.

But Jesus realized, toward the end when He saw that the Jews would not accept His teachings, that it would also be necessary to build a physical church to which His new converts could become members in order to follow His teachings.

Anyone that wants to be intellectually honest will have to admit that it would have been very odd to tell Peter that HE was the rock, and then turn around and say that Jesus HIMSELF was the rock. Very bad grammatically.

As to the first Pope, Peter was the first Bishop of Rome who then became known as Pope.
So the CC likes to call Peter the first Pope --- I don't think it's correct, but there are denominations that do worse,
so I'm willing to let it go.

And @Augustin56 will answer for himself.

The "Rock" was certainly not Peter nor was he given the keys to the kingdom. But I am sure that once this door is opened, it will take on a life of its own. Jesus, our faith in Him and Him only and His sacrifice on the cross is our "Rock." Jesus was no different than any other man on the planet - a flawed, sin natured individual. Only One was sinless and perfect and only One who is the cornerstone and our God.

Jesus specifically told Peter that is was only from the grace of God that he was told the answer to His question. That is because Peter, just like every other Jew or Gentile before the cross may have believed He was a good man, a prophet, a brilliant teacher, etc., but no one could begin to grasp that He was God on earth. It was God the Father who put those words in Peters mouth. God the Father did not suddently reveal that Peter was going to be the head of His church on earth...... It did not take Peter more than a few steps before Jesus would tell him to " "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Again, Peter did not comprehend the message he HEARD from God. It is ONLY Jesus that saves, it is ONLY Jesus who is our Rock, our cornerstone, it is ONLY Jesus who has been given the keys to the kingdom - referenced in both Isaiah and Revelation.

However, it is ONLY the "little horn" of Daniel 7 and 8 who has preached a very different gospel, who claims divinity, forgiveness of sin, god on earth, equality with God, change His laws and commands, it is this "little horn" who has appropriated His church and brought in pagan practices, traditions, the magisterium - all which they believe are of greater weight than His Scriptures.

Daniel 2:44, And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people;

Here in Daniel, he is telling us that God will never again turn His kingdom (man's teaching of the One true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) to ANY other people. God had chosen Israel to be His priests to go out into the world preaching the one true God to the Gentiles / pagans. They failed miserably, instead, they kept Him to themselves. That was their God given mission.

But after the cross, God will confirm this statement and He would NEVER place our salvation into the hands of any group, church, organization, denomination, etc., God would only send His Holy Spirit, that whoever accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, He would come into them and give them unlimited power to walk in His ways and obey God. This is the only path to salvation... however, the "little horn" of Daniel 7 did not read the fine print in 2:44c. They would indeed adopt a position of "replacement theology,"

But of course, there are over 1.4 billion Catholics that have accepted their false teachings and gospel...... but how would anyone come face to face with our God and try to explain to Him why we would accept a "man" who claimes to be equal to Him, forgive sins, salvation comes only through the sacraments / Catholic church, etc.? This discussion has been going on for over 1500 years but it will soon be answered by God Himself.....

 

[Athanasius377]

OK Anthanasius
I'll try again because you seem like a nice guy.

I'm not here to discuss OSAS, which, BTW, is not biblical,

What I asked you is this:
IF we have TWO differing opinions, and I repeat OPINIONS....
HOW can we know which of the two opinions is correct?

Opinions as opposed to doctrine? The first thing I would note is there is a ranking from most important to least important: dogmas, doctrines and opinions. If you want to know if an opinion is correct then consult the scriptures first. If it is not clear either by direct wording in scripture or a necessary consequence of the same. If an opinion is simply not addressed then it falls into the realm of adiaphora (neither commanded nor forbidden) and as such Christians have the liberty to hold an opinion or not hold an opinion. St. Paul discusses this very concept in Rom 14. What I don't mean is the denial of something essential like the Resurrection of Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Opinions as opposed to doctrine? The first thing I would note is there is a ranking from most important to least important: dogmas, doctrines and opinions. If you want to know if an opinion is correct then consult the scriptures first. If it is not clear either by direct wording in scripture or a necessary consequence of the same. If an opinion is simply not addressed then it falls into the realm of adiaphora (neither commanded nor forbidden) and as such Christians have the liberty to hold an opinion or not hold an opinion. St. Paul discusses this very concept in Rom 14. What I don't mean is the denial of something essential like the Resurrection of Christ.

Hi A,
I've found a good solution to the problem.
Just using OSAS as an example....
It seems to me to be apparent from scripture that this is a false teaching and is not supported by
either Jesus or any of the writers of the NT.

However, when addressing this issue, some members do post verses that SEEM to verify that once a person believes, God will keep that person saved no matter what.

A simple solution:
What did the Early Church Fathers believe?

They were taught by the Apostles and surely knew the correct answer.
It would seem to me that this alone should be sufficient to quelch this debate, however, since many will reply that these ECFs were not inspired, they won't accept this solution.

 

[Augustin56]

Watch this: 24K views · 769 reactions | A piece of advice for Protestants #catholicfaith #TheTruth | Catholic Faith Defender Cebu Chapter | Catholic Faith Defender Cebu Chapter · Original audio

 

[GodsGrace]

The "Rock" was certainly not Peter nor was he given the keys to the kingdom.

Peter was given the keys to the Kingdom:

Matthew 16:19
19“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

The giving of the keys was a sign of the giving of aurthority and of making one a representative.
This goes all the way back to the OT:

Isaiah 22:20-22
20“Then it will come about in that day,
That I will summon My servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah,

21And I will clothe him with your tunic
And tie your sash securely about him.
I will entrust him with your authority,
And he will become a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.

22“Then I will set the key of the house of David on his shoulder,
When he opens no one will shut,
When he shuts no one will open.



Peter was made the rock of the new church:

Matthew 16:18
18“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church;

This is the translation:

YOU ARE ROCK,
AND UPON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH.

But I am sure that once this door is opened, it will take on a life of its own. Jesus, our faith in Him and Him only and His sacrifice on the cross is our "Rock." Jesus was no different than any other man on the planet - a flawed, sin natured individual. Only One was sinless and perfect and only One who is the cornerstone and our God.

I think you meant that PETER was no different than any other man.

Yes, he was a flawed individual.
But Jesus returned to heaven from where He came.

He didn't stay here on earth to set up His church and to go on missionary journeys....
He picked Peter to be the leader of the new church.

Jesus is the cornerstone,
Jesus is the foundation,
but in Matthew 16:18 PETER is the rock.

Jesus specifically told Peter that is was only from the grace of God that he was told the answer to His question.

Correct. This is true of all enlightenment.

That is because Peter, just like every other Jew or Gentile before the cross may have believed He was a good man, a prophet, a brilliant teacher, etc., but no one could begin to grasp that He was God on earth. It was God the Father who put those words in Peters mouth. God the Father did not suddently reveal that Peter was going to be the head of His church on earth...... It did not take Peter more than a few steps before Jesus would tell him to " "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

This is nonsense and I absolutely refuse to discuss nonsense.
Are you saying that Jesus told Peter he was satan?

Where is it written that Peter was perfect?
Or that he thought he believed he was a good man?
You're creating a strawman.

Again, Peter did not comprehend the message he HEARD from God. It is ONLY Jesus that saves, it is ONLY Jesus who is our Rock, our cornerstone, it is ONLY Jesus who has been given the keys to the kingdom - referenced in both Isaiah and Revelation.

Provide some scripture please.

However, it is ONLY the "little horn" of Daniel 7 and 8 who has preached a very different gospel, who claims divinity, forgiveness of sin, god on earth, equality with God, change His laws and commands, it is this "little horn" who has appropriated His church and brought in pagan practices, traditions, the magisterium - all which they believe are of greater weight than His Scriptures.

Hmmm. You might be trying to discuss the Catholic Church here.
I'm not here to defend any church.

But for those reading along....
The reason we're here discussing is because the CC kept heresies out of the new church after Jesus ascended and heresies had already begun by the time of John. If you remember, gnosticism was on the rise and John even mentioned it in his gospel.
1 John 2:19

Daniel 2:44, And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people;

Here in Daniel, he is telling us that God will never again turn His kingdom (man's teaching of the One true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) to ANY other people. God had chosen Israel to be His priests to go out into the world preaching the one true God to the Gentiles / pagans. They failed miserably, instead, they kept Him to themselves. That was their God given mission.

But after the cross, God will confirm this statement and He would NEVER place our salvation into the hands of any group, church, organization, denomination, etc., God would only send His Holy Spirit, that whoever accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, He would come into them and give them unlimited power to walk in His ways and obey God. This is the only path to salvation... however, the "little horn" of Daniel 7 did not read the fine print in 2:44c. They would indeed adopt a position of "replacement theology,"

Salvation is through Jesus only.
I don't know of any Christian denomination that does not believe this.

If there were no church, HOW would you know about Jesus?
You wouldn't.

But of course, there are over 1.4 billion Catholics that have accepted their false teachings and gospel...... but how would anyone come face to face with our God and try to explain to Him why we would accept a "man" who claimes to be equal to Him, forgive sins, salvation comes only through the sacraments / Catholic church, etc.? This discussion has been going on for over 1500 years but it will soon be answered by God Himself.....

If it's been going on a long time it must mean that there is some truth to it.
The CC teaches the same gospel every other denomination teaches...except for the reformed, they truly teach a different gospel.
In fact, in that theology there is NO gospel.

The truth outlives time:
Let's remember what Gamaliel said:
Acts 5:34-39
34But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the Law, respected by all the people, stood up in the Council and gave orders to put the men outside for a short time.
35And he said to them, “Men of Israel, take care what you propose to do with these men.
36“For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a group of about four hundred men joined up with him. But he was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing.
37“After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census and drew away some people after him; he too perished, and all those who followed him were scattered.
38“So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown; 3
9but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God.”

 

[CTK]

Peter was given the keys to the Kingdom:

Matthew 16:19
19“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

The giving of the keys was a sign of the giving of aurthority and of making one a representative.
This goes all the way back to the OT:

Part 1.


This is not speaking of Peter, but of the revelation from God to Peter that Jesus is the Son of God. Through faith in Him and Him only are we saved.

No, Peter was not given the keys… the keys, just like the revelation given to Peter was to point to the faith in Jesus.. only through His sacrifice do we have salvation. Peter was no different than the other 11.

Isaiah 22:20-22
20“Then it will come about in that day,
That I will summon My servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah,

21And I will clothe him with your tunic
And tie your sash securely about him.
I will entrust him with your authority,
And he will become a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.

22“Then I will set the key of the house of David on his shoulder,
When he opens no one will shut,
When he shuts no one will open.



Peter was made the rock of the new church:

Please reconsider- This scene is all about Jesus beginning to reveal to them that who He truly was… why He came to the earth, reveal that He was the only way.

Matthew 16:18
18“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church;

This is the translation:

YOU ARE ROCK,
AND UPON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH.

The Rock was the revelation that Jesus was the cornerstone, the rock cut out of the mountain Daniel 2:34, 2:44-45. This is not a prophecy about Peter nor is Isaiah about Peter.

I think you meant that PETER was no different than any other man.

Yes, he was a flawed individual.
But Jesus returned to heaven from where He came.

Yes, and thank you. Certainly did not mean Jesus. Jesus indeed returned to heaven but He did “set up” or “established” His church. And only after Pentecost would His disciples be sent out to preach the Good News. They were ALL Jews - “pottery clay” in Daniel. They were not sent out to build a Christian or Catholic Church, but the Good News to the Gentiles.

He didn't stay here on earth to set up His church and to go on missionary journeys....
He picked Peter to be the leader of the new church.

There is absolutely nothing in the Scriptures or the writings if Paul or their relationship with him that remotely changed the way they felt and dealt about Peter. He would continue in his impetuous and dangerous ways and would have to be admonished by Jesus, by Paul and of course he would show just how little he knew about Jesus even after the Revelation from the Father that “Jesus was the Rock.” He would resort to cutting off the ear of the Jew and he would deny Jesus three times.

Peter was a fisherman not a scholar like Paul. If anyone were to be given a position of authority it certainly would not be Peter but Paul. But Jesus did not establish a hierarchy. God did not send His Messiah to fulfill all 6 of His commitments (9:24), sacrifice Himself on the cross, raise Him from the dead, only to turn His kingdom over to a “man.” This is all coming to the little horn - only the Roman Catholic Church could do such a thing for their own power and grandeur.

Jesus is the cornerstone,
Jesus is the foundation,
but in Matthew 16:18 PETER is the rock.

Again, please consider what you are professing- That Jesus is not the rock, the one we must turn to, rely on, and have complete faith in Him. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Jesus and Paul not anyone during that immediate period (before or after the cross) ever considered Peter any differently… Three times Jesus asked Peter “do you love me” … feed my sheep… He realized how Peter felt about betraying Him. Jesus was not telling the others that this Peter was the “rock” but that He forgave Him and brought him back from despair so he could preach the Good News. Jesus is God … no hierarchy was given to Peter … just come back and believe in Me (Jesus)… and go preach the Good News.

It would take centuries before this idea about “Peter must be the first pope.” Only the RCC could create such a blasphemous interpretation to secure their need for power, control and greed… and worship!

Correct. This is true of all enlightenment.

This is nonsense and I absolutely refuse to discuss nonsense.
Are you saying that Jesus told Peter he was satan?

I did not say that… I did say that Jesus used this term just minutes after He revealed that it was ONLY because the Father revealed this truth to Peter that Jesus was the “Rock.” Jesus Himself called Peter “Satan” and to “get behind Me,” because this same Peter failed to accept Jesus’ statement that He would soon die…

Again, Peter thought and responded like a impetuous and sometimes violent man, and Jesus rebuked him immediately… showing his mindset ANDA REINFORCING THAT IF IT WASN’t revealed by His Father that Jesus was the “Rick” just minutes earlier, Peter would have no concept of who Jesus was.

Where is it written that Peter was perfect?
Or that he thought he believed he was a good man?
You're creating a strawman.

I am not creating mothers my here. Read the Scriptures and they clearly paint a true picture of the events, responses, etc., that took place… Even Jesus responded in that same verse that he (Peter) thought like a “man” not the “things of God”.

Provide some scripture please.



Hmmm. You might be trying to discuss the Catholic Church here.
I'm not here to defend any church.

I am not trying to discuss the RCC , but it is impossible to not bring in the ONLY people that have made this claim … because THEY need something / to grossly misinterpret Scripture to solidify and secure their power, need for worship, and even divinity. They are indeed the little horn of Daniel. They are the “vile” one in Chapter 11. Igor had revealed this little horn and all of his characteristics, evil doings, anti- Christ ways in Daniel, 2,7, 8, 9, and 11.

This is the same Rock which they contend began as Peter who have murder over 50 million people who dared to oppose their false teachings

 

[MatthewG]

So....
Apparently this is a thing.

Does the church (man) have authority over the Scriptures
OR
Do the Scriptures have authority over the Church?

It's YHVH, whom is the authority.

How does YHVH govern? By his holy spirit.

It's along similar lines of the old question paradox:

Does God have a Plan for me?
VX
What is God's plan and how can I be a part of it?

What's YHVH's will for man? To believe on the Son whom was sent, and to Love God, and love others.


Those are my answer(s).

 

[CTK]

But for those reading along....
The reason we're here discussing is because the CC kept heresies out of the new church after Jesus ascended and heresies had already begun by the time of John. If you remember, gnosticism was on the rise and John even mentioned it in his gospel.
1 John 2:19

Part 2

Certainly true but God prophesied about that as well. Jesus Himself stated that before He returned to His Father. But God also went into great detail about the coming of the little horn who would sit atop the 4th beast kingdom that would come to be known as the papacy / papal Rome AFTER pagan Rome was slain (7:11).

Salvation is through Jesus only.
I don't know of any Christian denomination that does not believe this.

Well, we can leave out those denominations that call themselves Christians but are clearly not like the Mormons, etc. But more importantly, the RCC is literally the greatest deceiver since the cross! They profess Jesus but do not do what He commanded nor do they obey Him. They worship Him in vain!!!!


They have broken the first 4 of God’s commandments, they have claimed equality with God, they preach a very different gospel. They do not claim that salvation comes only through the faith in Jesus… this list could go on for days YET, you and some 1.4 BILLION people follow this “god on earth.” They have corrupted His Word and His Testimony. This is so far from the teachings of His apostles who were sent out to preach the Good News.

If there were no church, HOW would you know about Jesus?
You wouldn't.

We have the Scriptures that are the inerrant Word of God- both the OT and the NT. Jesus certainly sent His disciples out into the Jews and Gentiles to preach the God News but He did not send them out to build a “church organization,” that would corrupt His Word and Testimony, set up THEIR OWN KINGDOM, murder anyone that did not accept THEIR false teachings, and so on.

If it's been going on a long time it must mean that there is some truth to it.
The CC teaches the same gospel every other denomination teaches...except for the reformed, they truly teach a different gospel.
In fact, in that theology there is NO gospel.
No they don’t. Take a simple test- on one side of the paper place the 10 commandments, then the teachings of Jesus, His thoughts on salvation, traditions and false teachings.
On the other side of the paper, write down their 10 commandments, their teachings on salvation, their rules and practices, their claim of infallibility, that Mary is a co-mediator, she was sinless, she was sent to heaven without dying. Purgatory, indulgences, priests can forgive sin, sacraments, on and on. Then tell me who the little horn of Daniel is. They do not follow in the ways of Jesus, they disobey His commands, but they do mention His name … they do claim He is the Son of God, but they also claim divinity, ability to change God’s laws, idols, etc. They worship Jesus in name only. They demand to be worshipped!

If it's been going on a long time it must mean that there is some truth to it.
The CC teaches the same gospel every other denomination teaches...except for the reformed, they truly teach a different gospel.
In fact, in that theology there is NO gospel.

The truth outlives time:
Let's remember what Gamaliel said:
Acts 5:34-39
34But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the Law, respected by all the people, stood up in the Council and gave orders to put the men outside for a short time.
35And he said to them, “Men of Israel, take care what you propose to do with these men.
36“For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a group of about four hundred men joined up with him. But he was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing.
37“After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census and drew away some people after him; he too perished, and all those who followed him were scattered.
38“So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown; 3
9but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God.”

This is a perfect set of verses that speak to the little horn of Daniel (papacy / papal Rome). There afe more than a few Christian denominations the call themselves Christian, that believe in Jesus but they certainly do not follow His Words and His Testimony.

Many might agree that the Mormons, the SDA's, the Jehovah Witnesses, etc., are Christian churchs, yet their beliefs and practices are so not in line with what Jesus has commanded us to do. Well, there is no larger church that has moved even farther away from His teachings and the Words of God that the RCC.

Think about it: If any one of those churches claimed the head of their church was divine, equal to God, could forgive sins, change God's laws and commands, institute a different way of salvation where their treachings and their traditions superceded the Scriptures, created saints to be worshipped and prayed to, salvation only though their church, etc,, would you join that church? Of course you would not and these are only a sample of what they profess and practice against the Word of God....

If someone comes along as says they are the Christ........

 

[JohnDB]

Part 2

Certainly true but God prophesied about that as well. Jesus Himself stated that before He returned to His Father. But God also went into great detail about the coming of the little horn who would sit atop the 4th beast kingdom that would come to be known as the papacy / papal Rome AFTER pagan Rome was slain (7:11).

Well, we can leave out those denominations that call themselves Christians but are clearly not like the Mormons, etc. But more importantly, the RCC is literally the greatest deceiver since the cross! They profess Jesus but do not do what He commanded nor do they obey Him. They worship Him in vain!!!!


They have broken the first 4 of God’s commandments, they have claimed equality with God, they preach a very different gospel. They do not claim that salvation comes only through the faith in Jesus… this list could go on for days YET, you and some 1.4 BILLION people follow this “god on earth.” They have corrupted His Word and His Testimony. This is so far from the teachings of His apostles who were sent out to preach the Good News.

We have the Scriptures that are the inerrant Word of God- both the OT and the NT. Jesus certainly sent His disciples out into the Jews and Gentiles to preach the God News but He did not send them out to build a “church organization,” that would corrupt His Word and Testimony, set up THEIR OWN KINGDOM, murder anyone that did not accept THEIR false teachings, and so on.

If it's been going on a long time it must mean that there is some truth to it.
The CC teaches the same gospel every other denomination teaches...except for the reformed, they truly teach a different gospel.
In fact, in that theology there is NO gospel.
No they don’t. Take a simple test- on one side of the paper place the 10 commandments, then the teachings of Jesus, His thoughts on salvation, traditions and false teachings.
On the other side of the paper, write down their 10 commandments, their teachings on salvation, their rules and practices, their claim of infallibility, that Mary is a co-mediator, she was sinless, she was sent to heaven without dying. Purgatory, indulgences, priests can forgive sin, sacraments, on and on. Then tell me who the little horn of Daniel is. They do not follow in the ways of Jesus, they disobey His commands, but they do mention His name … they do claim He is the Son of God, but they also claim divinity, ability to change God’s laws, idols, etc. They worship Jesus in name only. They demand to be worshipped!





This is a perfect set of verses that speak to the little horn of Daniel (papacy / papal Rome). There afe more than a few Christian denominations the call themselves Christian, that believe in Jesus but they certainly do not follow His Words and His Testimony.

Many might agree that the Mormons, the SDA's, the Jehovah Witnesses, etc., are Christian churchs, yet their beliefs and practices are so not in line with what Jesus has commanded us to do. Well, there is no larger church that has moved even farther away from His teachings and the Words of God that the RCC.

Think about it: If any one of those churches claimed the head of their church was divine, equal to God, could forgive sins, change God's laws and commands, institute a different way of salvation where their treachings and their traditions superceded the Scriptures, created saints to be worshipped and prayed to, salvation only though their church, etc,, would you join that church? Of course you would not and these are only a sample of what they profess and practice against the Word of God....

If someone comes along as says they are the Christ........

Currently we have several denominations claiming that their churches have authority over scriptures.
Methodists (they are still splitting over this) Catholics, Episcopalians, and Greek Orthodox (and a few others) are claiming they have authority which supercedes scriptures. Two have gone so far that they no longer have the "Christian" moniker placed upon them by everyone else except themselves. (Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses)

So it's not an exclusively Catholic tradition to claim authority that supercedes scriptures. SDA are really close by claiming an ultra literalist interpretation of the Scriptures that they alone hold. Same with certain sects of Messianic Judaism (definitely not all). But we usually allow for cognitive biases and logical fallacies among the rank and file we deem "Christian".

 

[CTK]

Currently we have several denominations claiming that their churches have authority over scriptures.
Methodists (they are still splitting over this) Catholics, Episcopalians, and Greek Orthodox (and a few others) are claiming they have authority which supercedes scriptures. Two have gone so far that they no longer have the "Christian" moniker placed upon them by everyone else except themselves. (Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses)

So it's not an exclusively Catholic tradition to claim authority that supercedes scriptures. SDA are really close by claiming an ultra literalist interpretation of the Scriptures that they alone hold. Same with certain sects of Messianic Judaism (definitely not all). But we usually allow for cognitive biases and logical fallacies among the rank and file we deem "Christian".

Oh, I was not aware of that... thank you very much... God blesss.