Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
It seems like some pious Rabbi did the math, realized that it added up so that he lived through the flood, and decided to make a... correction?
Filling in Scriptural Blanks
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
So much for inerrancy. - LOLIt seems like some pious Rabbi did the math, realized that it added up so that he lived through the flood, and decided to make a... correction?
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Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
It's kind of crazy to me how far some people go with inerrancy. Even the New Testament tells us to ignore the genealogies... if Paul didn't believe them, why are modern churches going to bat for them?
Titus 3:9 Avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law
1Timothy 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying
Consider what I said about His aiding us to salvation by means of His propitiation sacrifice the same as in Hebrews 2, where He aids to salvation the children God has given Him and what you said.
The elect must believe, and is also the reason why Paul says he labors. So yes pray that the Lord sends laborers into His field which is the world as that is where His elect are born. No one is born saved. Paul labors so that the elect obtain salvation by believing.
2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Hebrews 2
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who [g]sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:
“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”
13 And again:
“I will put My trust in Him.”
And again:
“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not [h]give aid to angels, but He does [i]give aid to the seed of Abraham.
17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being [j]tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
Now if Paul had not labored so that the elect obtained salvation, God would send another so that the elect will obtain salvation.
God has ordained in the church helpers in the ministry. And one is the work of Evangelists to proclaim the good news of Jesus to unsaved people who will believe in God's perfect timing for them.
Now I believe there are ministering spirits, people and angels to His church and His 'elect' church which includes those God will save in the future. These scriptures below are only for the people God saves, these people labor so that 'all the elect' will obtain salvation. You cannot just discount this as it is the reality of God working through His people to do His will. None of the below scriptures refers to those God does not save; it is only for those who will obtain salvation that are helped by the work of the ministry, according to His will.
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the [e]edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
God has ordained in the church helpers in the ministry. And one is the work of Evangelists to proclaim the good news of Jesus to unsaved people who will believe in God's perfect timing for them.
Now I believe there are ministering spirits, people and angels to His church and His 'elect' church which includes those God will save in the future. These scriptures below are only for the people God saves, these people labor so that 'all the elect' will obtain salvation. You cannot just discount this as it is the reality of God working through His people to do His will. None of the below scriptures refers to those God does not save; it is only for those who will obtain salvation that are helped by the work of the ministry, according to His will.
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the [e]edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Many, myself included, believe that the gaps in Scripture, brought about by natural causes and supernatural will, have been filled in by Jesus in modern times. Therefore, it's possible for one to avoid indulging any personal biases, while also having a clearer understanding of Scripture.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
How have these gaps in scripture been filled in by Jesus in modern times?
Did Jesus answer the question about Methuselah? (see the OP, post #1)
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Dear Scott Downey,
You said:
The elect must believe, and is also the reason why Paul says he labors. So yes pray that the Lord sends laborers into His field which is the world as that is where His elect are born. No one is born saved. Paul labors so that the elect obtain salvation by believing.
I agree - the Elect are not born saved. However, the Elect are born "chosen" to be saved before they die. To be saved, Christ will do 100% of the work of saving the Elect. Included in this work, Christ will cause bondservants like Paul to help bring in His harvest.
Also, the Elect believer has no works to perform to save themselves. Yes, the person will make a confession of faith but that confession is a result of the spiritual work that Christ did within the person. The person cannot take credit for their confession. When they do, they are stealing from Christ.
Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Also, to be saved, a person must be converted from being a child of the Devil (all mankind) who is "condemned already" (John 3:18) into being a child of God who is not condemned. The confession of faith is what makes Christ's pathway straight for Him to come and convert the Elect person. For those who are not chosen for salvation in this age, Christ will not perform all the necessary spiritual work to save them before they die. The non-Elect person has no say in the matter and has no ability to save themselves.
Paul was asked about the fairness of Christ choosing those who will be saved in this age. Here is the scripture:
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Conversion requires both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, followed by judgment. Judgment removes all the spiritual things within the person which has caused them to be carnally minded. After the person is converted, they will be like Christ. This is God's free gift to mankind.
The balance of mankind who were not chosen for an early salvation will be saved in the final age. This includes all unbelievers and believers who were called to be a saints but were not chosen for this honor.
The verse below applies to Christ's judgment of the lost which will occur in the final age:
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
In the final age, the balance of mankind will be cast into the Lake of Fire (not literal fire, it is a symbol for Christ's judgment) where they will be judged by the Law. Under the Law, the penalty of sin is death. However, before the "lost" perish from this judgment, Christ will have MERCY upon each person. His mercy will come to them in the form of the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit which will give them FAITH. Because of the faith that the Spirit gives them, Christ will appear to the person and complete their conversion. The result will be the birth of a new child of God who will be gathered up to heaven. The child of the Devil will remain in the Lake of Fire until he perishes. This death will satisfy JUSTICE.
By the end of the final age, all who have died in Adam will be made alive in Christ. This result happens solely because it is God's "will" for it to happen. To accomplish His "will", God the Father sent Christ into the world to save us.
These verses apply:
1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Joe
Many, myself included, believe that the gaps in Scripture brought about by natural causes and supernatural will were filled in by Jesus giving dictation and visions to His spokesperson Maria Valtorta (see the first four links in my signature).
In my belief, Jesus has answered @RedFan's question "Did Methuselah die in the great flood?" With regard to Gen. 6, on December 30th, 1946, Jesus explained that the "sons of heaven", or the "sons of God", refer to the sons of Seth—that is, the descendants of Seth through Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch of Jared—not to be con fused with Enoch of Cain—Methuselah, Lamech, and Noah, the father of Shem, Ham, and Japeth, and that the "daughters of man" refer to the daughters of Cain. After the sons of Seth had intercourse with the daughters of Cain, they bore them sons: the Nephilim. It was then that God—to keep the branch of the children of God from being entirely corrupted by the branch of the children of men—sent the universal deluge to extinguish them. Methuselah wasn't one of the Nephilim, and thus he didn't die in the Deluge. Jesus's full quote can be read here in The Notebooks: 1945-1950.
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
It's fascinating isn't it when we consider Peter's declaration that a. a 1000 years is as one day...
b. No one lived beyond 1000 years and
c. The Lord said to Adam, "In the day you eat thereof, you shall surely die".
Paul didn't say ignore genealogies in the Bible, he was meaning to avoid arguing over which tribe someone belonged to. Barnes' Notes on 1 Timothy 1:4 says:
And endless genealogies - This also refers to Jewish teaching. The Hebrews kept careful genealogical records, for this was necessary in order that the distinction of their tribes might be kept up. Of course, in the lapse of centuries these tables would become very numerous, complicated, and extended - so that they might without much exaggeration be called “endless.” The Jews attached great importance to them, and insisted on their being carefully preserved. As the Messiah, however, had now come - as the Jewish polity was to cease - as the separation between them and the pagan was no longer necessary, and the distinction of tribes was now useless, there was no propriety that these distinctions should be regarded by Christians. The whole system was, moreover, contrary to the genius of Christianity, for it served to keep up the pride of blood and of birth.
Which minister questions - Which afford matter for troublesome and angry debates. It was often difficult to settle or understand them. They became complicated and perplexing. Nothing is more difficult than to unravel an extensive genealogical table. To do this, therefore, would often give rise to contentions, and when settled, would give rise still further to questions about rank and precedence.
ok for much except for a final universal salvation at the very end of this world for all who are in Adam or human beings.
At the time of the new earth that God will make, where God makes all things new, the evil and unbelieving will remain in the lake of fire. A literal destruction where they do not ever escape to be saved later. God seals them in that place for all future eternity.
Rev 21
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said [b]to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It[c] is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes [d]shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
8 But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
There is never any future promise of an eternal salvation in the future for them we are at the end of the books of God.
Christ is the savior of all men, but only if they believe in their hearts in this life in the flesh. Once they die and are fully exposed to the great hidden reality of the true natures of all things, it is no longer of unseen experiences (faith), there is only an awesome reality that they experience. Faith is no longer faith once it is experienced in real totality when the perfect has come in full reality and experienced fully which no one in the flesh body yet has. But when a person passes completely into the spirit realm, then they experience the full reality which was hidden from them, and they will have no excuse,
Right now in this life we live by faith and we only know in part. But at our passing into the spirit realm, we will see and experince all in full measure and it will no longer be of faith.
1 Cor 13
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is [d]perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
13, NOW abide faith hope love, in the future though we will be all be changed
May we assume that if they had not eaten of the forbidden fruit, they would have lived on to that 1000 year mark or and then eating of the Tree of Life...they would simply have lived on...?
MA2444
Well-Known Member
You should read the entire story sometime, it's really good. Methuselah was dead before the flood began. He was the key figure in the flood timing. God told them when he was born that when he dies then a great flood will come.
It must have been interesting to raise that kid. I bet the whole neighbrohood panicked whe he got the measles as a kid! It doesnt really say what Methuselah died from but he was 969 so he prolly died of old age.
His name means his death shall bring. So he died before the first raindrop.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
They had the opportunity to prefect character and learn to trust God. That tree of life would have ensured their immortality regardless of their eating of the other fruit, which is why God had to turf them out of the garden...
“22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. ”
Genesis 3:22-24 KJV
Which is why there can be no immortal sinner suffering for eternity in hell. The tree of life even in glory will be the food for eternal health for the redeemed, but there is no access to that tree for the wicked.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Age is telling on me these days. My wife has some health issues but she remains more active than me. I have no major complaints. We live with our daughter and she looks after us. I look into this forum regularly although I post very little anymore. Hopefully you and yours are doing well.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Brakelite said:
... Which is why there can be no immortal sinner suffering for eternity in hell. The tree of life even in glory will be the food for eternal health for the redeemed, but there is no access to that tree for the wicked.
The most sadistic and unjust punishment imaginable for temporal transgressions.
I believe that every soul has eternal life.
Luke 20:37-39 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”
[
... Which is why there can be no immortal sinner suffering for eternity in hell. The tree of life even in glory will be the food for eternal health for the redeemed, but there is no access to that tree for the wicked.
I think the standard workaround for this is to consider eternal conscious torment to be eternal death as compared to eternal life.
The most sadistic and unjust punishment imaginable for temporal transgressions.
I believe that every soul has eternal life.
Luke 20:37-39 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”
[
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