tailgator
Well-Known Member
But you plainly said when Jesus is coming that he is actually ascending when he is coming.
So where is he ascending to when he comes?
The time, times, and a half does not include the season and time, which is the thousand years.
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But you plainly said when Jesus is coming that he is actually ascending when he is coming.
So where is he ascending to when he comes?
tailgator
Well-Known Member
Given Daniels vision.The thrones are cast down before the Son of man is given a kingdom.
And then the interpretation of the vision shows the same order.The beast is consumed,and then his kingdom is given to the saints.
Daniel 7
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
And then the interpretation of the vision shows the same order.The beast is consumed,and then his kingdom is given to the saints.
Daniel 7
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
There are several kingdoms, one’s that the kings of the Daniel 2 statue rule over and one that the God of heaven sets up during their rule. God’s kingdom consumes all the other kingdoms, I’m not sure why any saint would want the beast’s kingdom in the first place if they know it’s going to be consumed.
Per these verses that you submitted, if verses 13-14 can be taken parenthetically, there is no issue here, that it can mean the ascension rather than the return and not contradict anything in the previous verses you submitted here as well. OTOH, if verses 13-14 can't be taken parenthetically here, then there is an issue with taking them to mean the ascension rather that the return to earth. In that case I would be inclined to agree with your interpretation of verses 13-14. I guess it all depends on how one might look at it then.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
Because God promised to give the saints that kingdom.
If God promised to give you the promised land.Are you going to reject it after he takes it from the beast and gives it to you?
You going to say,no God I want something better than what you promised ?
The same kingdom the saints are persecuted in by the beast they would not worship nor would that recieve it's mark is given to those same saints.
Revelation 20
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
You going to say you don't want to live in a kingdom of priests?
tailgator
Well-Known Member
If I look at it in context,The kingdom is not given to Christ in verse 14,until after the thrones are cast down in verse ,9.
I don't know of any thrones cast down in ,33 AD.
What verse specifically says it’s the beast’s kingdom that is given to the saints?
I see Daniel 7:22 where the saints posses the kingdom, but I view that as God’s kingdom not the beast’s kingdom. In Daniel 7:26 they take away and consume his dominion, which I associate with Daniel 2:44 where God’s kingdom consumes all the other kingdoms. Then in Daniel 7:27 the kingdom that is given to the saints has to be God’s kingdom since the others were consumed.
So where specifically do you see the saints getting the beast’s kingdom?
tailgator
Well-Known Member
1:The kingdom under heaven is taken away from the beast and is consumed.
2:The kingdom under heaven is given to the saints.
There is no other kingdom under heaven being discussed here.
Daniel ,7
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
In Daniel 7:14 Jesus is given a kingdom, and His kingdom shall not be destroyed. This the kingdom given to the saints.
The beast’s kingdom is consumed, put to an end. How can the saints be given the beast’s kingdom after it has been consumed?
tailgator
Well-Known Member
It is consumed when Jesus recieves it.
The only people who are not consumed are the saints.(Christians who believed the gospel and were Baptised,).
Mathew 13:41-42
The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Imagine the promised land and all the Muslims and unbelieving Jews being consumed as they stand on their feet.
Afterward,everyone in that kingdom.is holy.
Isaiah 19
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25 Whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance
Just because it was once full of evil .Muslims and unbelieving Jews doesn't mean it's still evil after the kingdom has been cleansed with fire.
Just because the beast reigned there doesn't mean it's still evil after the promised land is given to the saints of God.
Look at Daniel 2:44 again …
Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
If Jesus receives the kingdom that was already consumed then there are two kingdoms that last forever. God has one, which consumes the others, and Jesus has one which was previously consumed by God’s kingdom. That can’t be as there are no other verses that point to this situation.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
False
The kingdom that lasts forever is the kingdom that is given to the saints after it was taken by the beast and destroyed.
Daniel 7
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
This everlasting kingdom given to the saints is not given to the saints until after he best is destroyed.
As of now ,there is no kingdom under heaven which is everlasting.It is not established till the 7th Trump.After the beast is consumed.
Revelation 11
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”
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tailgator
Well-Known Member
You act as though the land can not recover from the war of armegeddon.You believe if it is consumed,it can never be used again.
Well scripture says the land will be used again.It will be dwelt in by the saints resurected in Ezekiel 37.
Ezekiel 38:8
After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety.
Exactly, it’s false. That’s why we have place the Daniel 7:13 coming with the clouds just after the cross and not at some future time.
Isaiah 62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.
The bride of Christ is the land. The physical land is consumed but the true promised land is not, it’s the bride of Christ.
But, when I claim that verse 12 is also parenthetical, you just can't bring yourself to even consider how that can possibly be true and you just immediately dismiss that possibility.
Daniel 7:12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.) (NIV)
Clearly, I'm not the only one to see it that way.
No doubt there are numerous interpreters that agree with your interpretation of verse 12. I do not dispute that. The question is, does the context support that? It for sure doesn't support it if verses 9-11 the context is the GWTJ. Nor does it support it if verses 9-11 the context is the beginning of the millennium.
You do take verses 9-11 to be meaning the GWTJ, right? What I argue below is assuming if verses 9-11 are pertaining to the GWTJ.
Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
For the sake of argument, let's assume verses 9-11 are involving the GWTJ. Don't you find it odd if it is involving the GWTJ, that we are then told in verse 12, As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time, rather than saying something like the following instead?
As concerning the rest of the beasts, they too were given to the burning flame at that time.
Why doesn't it say that if verses 9-11 are meaning the GWTJ? Who would even care what allegedly happened to the rest of some other beasts earlier in history? No, we want to what happens to them now, meaning during the event when the beast is given to the burning flame. We don't care what happened to the rest of some other beasts thousand of years earlier that were no longer present during when the beast pertaining to verse 11 is present. We do not need to know that during the events involving the GWTJ. The end follows the GTWJ, not something pertaining to the rest of some other beasts and what allegedly became of them thousands of years earlier. Nobody cares. It is not relevant at this point. This assuming verses 9-11 are involving the GWTJ.
Obviously, they are not involving the GWTJ, because if they were verse 12 wouldn't be saying what it does, it would be saying they too were given to the burning flame when the beast in verse 11 is given to it. Except it doesn't say that. It instead says, instead of they too being given to the burning flame when the beast in verse 11 is, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. Verse 12 only makes sense if there is still an era of time to fulfill after verse 11 has been fulfilled. If verse 11 is meaning the GWTJ there is no era of time still needing to be fulfilled after verse 11 is fulfilled.
Therefore, in light of verse 12 verse 11 can't be involving the GWTJ. But it can certainly be involving the beginning of the millennium, though. Except you can't have it meaning that, because if it does, well there goes Amil out the window then since verse 11 is obviously meaning Revelation 19:20. No wonder you need to interpret verse 12 the way you do. That's the only way you can give the impression that your doctrine of Amil is supposedly still a valid view, still a valid option.
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tailgator
Well-Known Member
Christ coming in the clouds after the thrones have been cast down in Daniel 7 has not happened yet
There were no thrones cast down in 33 AD.
That's why your statement is false.
Did you even bother to read Daniel 7 at all?
tailgator
Well-Known Member
You believe you are dirt?
Ok,your dirt.
But your not the land of Israel in Ezekiel 37-38.
The first three thrones were cast down, the fourth wasn’t cast down yet in 33AD.
I’m not the bride of Christ, nor do I believe it’s the Church. Do you think you are the bride for some reason?
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