The time, times, and a half does not include the season and time, which is the thousand years.
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For the longest, I too used to take Daniel 7:13-14 to be meaning a return to the earth rather than a return to heaven. But then I noticed a cpl of things I wsn't factoring in at the time.
First let's start with this.
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
This is involving a cloud. Not a literal cloud, though. I think it is likely meaning angels in this case. Let's see if it can at least make sense of the text.
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and angels received him out of their sight.
Doesn't sound nonsensical to me since there would obviously be angels escorting Him back to heaven.
Next let's look at Daniel 7:13-14.
Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Why can't we do the same thing in verse 13 that we did in Acts 1:9 where we assumed a cloud could maybe mean angels?
IOW---I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the angels of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Keeping in mind He left with the angels of heaven in Acts 1:9 if a cloud can mean angels. Then where He is returning to in Daniel 7:13 could mean these same angels of heaven that escorted Him back to where He is returning to at the time. The question is, where is He returning to per Daniel 7:13? Heaven or the earth? We can easily determine that by comparing the following with that of Matthew 24:30, for instance.
Daniel 7:13....and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Daniel 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Compared with...
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Are you able to see the difference between these two accounts and that one has to be a return to heaven, the other has to be a return to the earth? In the event you are unable to at this point, let's break this down some more by comparing the following.
and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory--compared with---the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Per the former He is not given power and glory until after He has arrived first. Per the latter He is arriving already in possession of power and glory. Therefore, the former explains how and when He obtained the power and glory He is seen returning with in the latter.
Nowhere per the former does it ever say this---and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I don't believe that, of course. If you're just going to make false accusations about what I believe then I have no interest in continuing this discussion. Do you plan on continuing to do that?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Coming to where?
Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
It says He came "to the Ancient of days". Who is the Ancient of days and where is He?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
The beast's kingdom is destroyed. You are very confuzed (misspelled on purpose...I'll assume you know why).
That is referring to the kingdom of God, not the beast's kingdom. You just don't get it.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Nope. You are very ignorant about what scripture teaches. That isn't talking about the kingdom of Christ that He has already been reigning over since His resurrection. That is talking about how the kingdom of the world, which is evil, will be destroyed at that point. Read Psalm 2:7-9 where it talks about Christ inheriting the heathen as His possession that He proceeds to destroy. Read this if you want to understand what Daniel 7:13-14 is about...
Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
What is the timing of what is described here? The resurrection of Christ and His ascension to the right hand of the Father in heaven, right? What does it say happened at that time? He was given a position "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" with "all things under his feet" and was made "to be the head over all things to the church". Why are you acting as if this hasn't happened yet? Compare the passage above to Daniel 7:13-14 and you should see that they are both about the ascension of Christ to heaven to the right hand of the Father at which point He was given His kingdom.
Daniel 7
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
You can't just say that with no backing the verse clearly states that Jesus "He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.".
The Father is in heaven not on the earth. Jesus sat at the right hand of the Father and received His glory and power.
IMO, Verses 13-14 are parenthetical. They explain the one sitting upon the throne in verses 9:11 and how He initially obtained that position. Verses 9-11 are involving His return to earth, and so is verse 22 since verse 22 is the interpretation of verses 9-11.
Daniel 7:9 ¶I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
The era of time meant in all theses verses is the end of this age and the beginning of the millennium. Amils obviously disagree even though verse 21 is proving it has to be since verse 21 is the reign of the beast that precedes His return in the end of this age. Therefore, making verse 22 His return. Where verse 22 is then involving verses 9-12, and that verse 12 is telling us, concerning the rest of the beasts, their lives were prolonged for a season and time, something that obviously wouldn't be happening if verses 9-11 are meaning the great white throne judgment.
And besides, someone has to fulfill verse 27 since that verse says all dominions shall serve and obey the one or ones meant in that verse. Initially the rest of the beasts would be serving and obeying the beast that is given to the burning flame. But when that part of the beast is destroyed, keeping in mind that the beast is 7 headed, and their dominion taken away from them, they are then left with having to serve and obey the one or ones meant in verse 27. Then they are tested at the end of the millennium. And we all know how that turns out.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That is very clear to anyone who reads Daniel 7:13-14 without doctrinal bias. As clear as can be.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
But, when I claim that verse 12 is also parenthetical, you just can't bring yourself to even consider how that can possibly be true and you just immediately dismiss that possibility.
Daniel 7:12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.) (NIV)
Clearly, I'm not the only one to see it that way.
I think those verses are about the resurrection of Jesus and the Old Testament saints.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
Daniel 7:13....and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Daniel 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
That kingdom is not founded till after the beast is consumed.It was not founded 2000 years ago.
Hence,the beast in revelation19 is consumed before the resurected saints recieve that kingdom in revelation 20.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
This kingdom was promised to Christ thousands of years ago when God promised Abraham to give Christ that land.
Galatians 3:16
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.
As of today,the beast rules the promised land .It's kingdom is established there.The kingdom will be taken from the beast and given to the saints and the resurected saints shall reign with Christ.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I don't know what you're talking about as it relates to verse 21. How can you say that verse relates to a time after the return of Christ when you already acknowledge that verses 13 and 14 relate to His ascension? You're not making any sense here. You understand that Daniel 7:17-27 is the explanation given for the meaning of the visions Daniel had in verse 2 to 14, don't you? So, why do you not use verses 13 and 14 to understand verses 21 and 22? Seems rather convenient for you to act as if verses 13 and 14 are not explained anywhere in verses 17 to 27 when it clearly indicates that the visions Daniel saw in verses 2 to 14 are explained in verses 17 to 27.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Are you just ignoring everything that people are telling you about Daniel 7:13-14? Where does it say He is coming to in verse 13? Are you afraid to answer the question? It's not hard to see. It says He came to the Ancient of days and was brought before Him. Who is the Ancient of days and where is He located?
While I do agree with you here, I certainly don't agree with your interpretation of Matthew 24:30 as well.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
Where is the Lord my God located?
Zech 14:5
You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
Where does it look like the Lord my God is?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
He's in heaven, buddy. You can't get around it. It never says that God the Father is coming to the earth. Do you deny that Jesus ever ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven or something? That is so clearly what Daniel 7:13-14 is about. Just compare it to Ephesians 1:19-22 and notice the similarities between the two.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
Oh yeah,that's right.
You said if the Lord my God is coming ,that means he is going away.
Zech 14:5
You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
Where do you say the Lord my God is going to in this verse?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You understand that Jesus is God, don't you? You're not differentiating between God the Father and God the Son here. Why not? Where does it ever say that God the Father is coming to the earth? Nowhere. Jesus is coming from heaven one day, but He ascended to heaven to God the Father's presence long ago and that is what Daniel 7:13-14 describes. But, you'd rather make it say what you want it to say than accept what it clearly is about. So be it. I'm done talking to you about this.
But, when I claim that verse 12 is also parenthetical, you just can't bring yourself to even consider how that can possibly be true and you just immediately dismiss that possibility.
Daniel 7:12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.) (NIV)
Clearly, I'm not the only one to see it that way.
For one thing, assuming the context pertaining to verses 9-11 is the GWTJ, it is then preposterous, that per a context such as that, that what allegedly happened to the rest of the beasts earlier in history thousand of years earlier, that that would even be relevant at this point. Who would even need to know that, and why, if verses 9-11 are involving the GWTJ? But verse 12 makes perfect sense if the context of verse 9-11 is the end of this age but not the GWTJ, but the beginning of the millennium instead.
The rest of the beasts are not meaning how you are taking them to mean. They all exist at the same time. They are a part of the beast that is cast into the lof. The beast has 7 heads, though. A 7 headed beast can still survive and live on per the remaining heads that are still intact. At least according to some of those Japanese movies I have watched in the past involving 3 headed beasts, for example. What an argument, right? lol. But who knows,maybe the Japanese are on to something here, that if a 3 headed beast has a head that is mortally wounded, it can still live on, since it still has 2 heads that weren't mortally wounded.
Here's an idea. Prove that verses 9-11 is involving the GWTJ by pointing out in Revelation 20:11-15 where you see the beast in Daniel 7:11 standing among any of those in Revelation 20:11-15. Regardless, when wants to argue the beast is cast into the LOF, the beast is already in the LOF before the GWTJ begins. The GWTJ involves judging humans not judging non human beings such as the beast in question.
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