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Romans 2:6-16 says you are justified and given life by works at the Judgment.
If you are not spurred on, you will not work, and your faith will be without works, and without works be dead.
Spurring doesn't create works, obeying does--Php 2:12,13 "obey... for it is God at work in you...".
?? Not sure how it's relevant to how you concluded justification is not by works.
You haven't answered the verses I raised. I look forward to you doing so.
There is a difference between being "justified" and being "justified later" - perhaps I overlooked that subtlety. What I am trying to say is that "what comes later, inspires us now"
And indeed maybe you need to die, before you can come to a point of trust, that is beyond death. Alive in the Spirit is good, but without a point of greater trust, the flesh will always be weaker than it needs to be (I am writing this as much for my benefit as yours!)
As I said, for which wisdom is needed. Not that we deserve to be condemned by others, but in principle that we condemn ourselves (for not having done all we could do)
You have to understand, I am not approaching the idea of faith from the perspective of possession - that is, to take possession of faith by saying "we are saved by grace" or that "our works come solely from the Judgment to come" (which is true) - I am saying our faith comes from "reckoning" as God reckons with us. That's basically what the Letters are: God reckoning with believers what is important to the faith (so reckoning with me in a way that can't be reckoned any other (way), isn't going to work - not to confront you, just to make you aware of that).
I speak of "justification today and later"--that it is by being loved by God and loving God and doing what is pleasing to God--that when we do not believe in His love and do what is pleasing we are condemned (Ro 14:23), but, of course, we can be forgiven, and pick back up.
Nope, the verse says if you do not walk in your conviction, created by God's love, you are sinning and you are condemned (not justified).
Not sure what "our works come solely from the Judgment to come".
I consider it God's love, and loving God, that gives any meaning to faith and walking in faith.
I could answer this, but
at this point I realise that we just see the world differently: I don't even think I can express the difference, I can just say "yes, I love you too (a similar way to God)"
The conversation (started in the OP) is actually about how the word "works" is apparently being misunderstood.
Actually, on this side note, I think it's why Paul could describe his lost state under Law as he did BOTH in Romans 7 ("before God" the Law shows him he needs a Deliverer from his slavery to sin) AND in Philippians 3 (where he is blameless according to the Law--before men, he could boast of a righteousness of his own, "but not before God").
Yes, and I am saying "confident believers have a thirst for works", so it is not that its being misunderstood, but that everyone understands it differently (with the exception of the one who doubts the greater)
You are welcome to attack any of the arguments I've made proving works has been misunderstood.
I feel like we are pulling in different directions. I looked at the OP again, and all I see is establishing grace (a very good account, but still focused on grace). Grace establishes the Spirit of Truth, but once the Spirit of Truth has been established, the heart turns to establishing faith in great works. I'm not saying "every work" must be done, neither am I saying "greater works" must be done. I am saying there is a thirst for "great works". The more you pull people to Grace, the more their hearts will turn to "Great works". You should be interested in the "great works" people want to do! It will take maturity on your part, but you have established Grace, now establish the rest?
For now, I stand by everything I've said--the word "works" has been misunderstood, because "works" pertains to "a righteousness of my own", not to "God's righteousness" which is "from faith to faith", thus the idea that "we are not saved by works" does not encompass how we walk after we are saved (that is, I reject the notion that how we walk after salvation cannot affect our justification), because it is by grace through faith that we reveal God's righteousness, which is not "a righteousness of our own" (is not "works").
Yes, I understand that how ever "Great" our works may be, they must reflect the righteousness of God.
What we do as Christians is done by grace through faith, and falls under the category of "God's righteousness", (eg Paul says "I was abundant in labors above them all yet not I but the grace with me")... therefore, they are not "a righteousness of my own", they are grace, not works.
I'm saying in Romans grace and faith connote God's righteousness, and man walking in God's righteousness, and works connotes man's righteousness (eg Ro 8:3 the Law relies on flesh)--to say that Christians must walk in faith to be justified is not a violation of "saved by grace".
Yes, but that's the "reason" (we do it for God), not the "rule" (the rule is we desire what we see in Christ).
I'm saying it's wrong to say how we live after being saved cannot/does not affect our justification.
