LOL. Please stop wasting your time. I'm done dealing with your nonsense. I'll wait for people to join this thread who actually want to have a serious discussion about this topic. Thanks.
No mortals will survive the second coming of Christ
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I have to break this down into two posts, though. It got rather lengthy once I started typing these things up.
In your opinion then, everything should be determined from the NT alone? No one should use both testaments together in order to try and determine anything? What you are doing is basically what unbelieving Jews do. Not even remotely calling you an unbelieving Jew, though. They try and determine everything from one testament alone, such as you are doing in the OP.
In your view of things there is apparently no longer nations outside of the kingdom after Christ returns. You have everyone living in the kingdom and no one living outside of it. You have every single unsaved person on the planet being in the beast's armies. As if, before Christ returns, every single person on the planet will be involved in religion one way or the other.
Before you can insist that the OP proves everything you allege, you need to first deal with some other things and show what the OP alleges, these other things support it 100%.
A few things off the top of my head would be these in Revelation 20:8, for instance.
Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Logic says, if they are present after the millennium they are also present during the millennium. Let's say the millennium ends tonight and satan's little season is underway tomorrow. Explain what they will be doing tomorrow that they weren't doing today nor yesterday. So on and so on. How will we be able to tell that a major change has taken place in them, billions of them? What do you assume they start doing tomorrow they weren't doing today nor yesterday? What will it look like once a major change comes over billions of them at the same time?
Revelation 20 depicts a battle taking place after the thousand years where billions are attacking saints tomorrow but weren't attacking them today nor yesterday. How do you explain that?
Continued from previous post.
Then there is Zechariah 14 to factor in. Why do you think Zechariah lied to us about any of those events? You apparently think he lied when he told us that there will be people remaining of the nations that came against Jerusalem, and that they can be punished for refusing to comply with what is commanded of them after having been spared. And clearly, this time period is meaning after verse 12 below is fulfilled.
Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
We are to believe that has already been fulfilled? If you think it has, prove it then.
Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
The text says--every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem--except you deny what the text plainly says, since the OP has zero mortals remaining after all of those events are fulfilled that you submitted, though it says there are some people left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem.
How could there be if verse 12 happened to them instead, right? Obviously then, not everyone of the nations that came against Jerusalem actually participated in any of that. Because if they had, they certainly wouldn't still be remaining post that of verse 12. If anything, this at least proves things are not always as they seem. Verse 12 gives the impression there won't be anyone left of the nations that come against Jerusalem. Except we know that's not the case once we read on further and see it's not the case according to verses 16-19.
Something else to keep in mind since verses 16-19 are undeniably meaning after verse 12 is fulfilled, is this--shall even go up from year to year. Regardless, what that might look like, it is impossible to do that in a single day or less. Keeping in mind, Amils have no more days to fulfill things like this after the 2nd coming has taken place.
The same is true in Revelation 19, that not every single person left on the planet is in the beast's armies. Keeping in mind, as of Revelation 19 there are no more saints on the planet, obviously. They have been raptured instead. And you would have us believe that every single person that wasn't raptured are among the beast's and it's armies? Why? If that is true that would mean Zechariah 14:16-19 isn't true. Yet, both are holy writ, though. Why would one be true but the other one would not be true?
But even some of the NT supports Premil, such as the parable of the talents in Luke 19. Such as Matthew 19:28. To name a few. None of those passages can be fulfilled in a single day. None of those passages are meaning after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled. All of those passages are meaning after Christ has returned.
Then there is Zechariah 14 to factor in. Why do you think Zechariah lied to us about any of those events? You apparently think he lied when he told us that there will be people remaining of the nations that came against Jerusalem, and that they can be punished for refusing to comply with what is commanded of them after having been spared. And clearly, this time period is meaning after verse 12 below is fulfilled.
Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
We are to believe that has already been fulfilled? If you think it has, prove it then.
Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
The text says--every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem--except you deny what the text plainly says, since the OP has zero mortals remaining after all of those events are fulfilled that you submitted, though it says there are some people left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem.
How could there be if verse 12 happened to them instead, right? Obviously then, not everyone of the nations that came against Jerusalem actually participated in any of that. Because if they had, they certainly wouldn't still be remaining post that of verse 12. If anything, this at least proves things are not always as they seem. Verse 12 gives the impression there won't be anyone left of the nations that come against Jerusalem. Except we know that's not the case once we read on further and see it's not the case according to verses 16-19.
Something else to keep in mind since verses 16-19 are undeniably meaning after verse 12 is fulfilled, is this--shall even go up from year to year. Regardless, what that might look like, it is impossible to do that in a single day or less. Keeping in mind, Amils have no more days to fulfill things like this after the 2nd coming has taken place.
The same is true in Revelation 19, that not every single person left on the planet is in the beast's armies. Keeping in mind, as of Revelation 19 there are no more saints on the planet, obviously. They have been raptured instead. And you would have us believe that every single person that wasn't raptured are among the beast's and it's armies? Why? If that is true that would mean Zechariah 14:16-19 isn't true. Yet, both are holy writ, though. Why would one be true but the other one would not be true?
But even some of the NT supports Premil, such as the parable of the talents in Luke 19. Such as Matthew 19:28. To name a few. None of those passages can be fulfilled in a single day. None of those passages are meaning after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled. All of those passages are meaning after Christ has returned.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Jesus sends forth his Angels at his 2nd coming to remove the wicked out of his Kingdom and throw them into the fire.
The righteous then inherit the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world.
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend [those things by which people are led into sin], and all who practice evil [leading others into sin], 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping [over sorrow and pain] and grinding of teeth [over distress and anger].
43 Then the righteous [those who seek the will of God] will shine forth [radiating the new life] like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
He who has ears [to hear], let him hear and heed My words.
36 Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him saying, “Explain [clearly] to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and [as for] the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the weeds are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons);
46 Then these [unbelieving people] will go away into eternal (unending) punishment, but those who are righteous and in right standing with God [will go, by His remarkable grace] into eternal (unending) life.”
The scriptures in the OP reinforce this fact.
2Thess 1
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].
The OP is spot on.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Jesus comes to receive us unto himself when he comes again to resurrect and change those who have believed. No need to catch public transport Lol.
They will come from east and west to meet him in the air. Abraham will even be there.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
This is about the topic.
Your avoiding a discussion about your own topic because you can't comprehend your own topic
Your topic is a lie
Revelation 20
Immortal
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Mortal
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
For a thousand years,the immortal resurected saints of God dwell on the earth with mortals.After a thousand years mortals come against the immortals and are destroyed by God
The immortals continue to live in the land God had promised them and they inherited.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
Ok,then you answer the question oh great one.
After Christ comes and resurrects the saints and they are living in Christs kingdom and reigning with him.
Who are these mortals who invade Christs kingdom after the thousand years ?
Revelation 20
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
These mortals who invade Christs kingdom a thousand years after the resurection ,where do they come from?
tailgator
Well-Known Member
After Jesus has come and resurrects his saints and they are reigning with him in his kingdom,the mortal nations outside of his kingdom invade his kingdom and are all consumed.
If there are no mortals on the earth after Christ comes ,then where do these mortals come from,?
Let's see how well you know scripture.What countries does the word of God say these mortals come from?
tailgator
Well-Known Member
Going into the air is up,not east or west as Jesus said.
What land do these who come from the east and west assemble in ?
Mathew 8:11-12
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
What land was Abraham and his seed (Christ) promised for an everlasting possession?
tailgator
Well-Known Member
It's always amusing when someone starts a topic ,then avoids it .
Where do these mortals who invade Christs kingdom come from if there are no mortals?
Revelation 20
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Where do these mortals who invade Christs kingdom come from if there are no mortals?
Revelation 20
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
How about addressing the evidence, instead of the usual Premil avoidance? All you have is opinions here.
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Evidence? Point out in the OP where there is evidence from both the OT and NT that support what the OP alleges. Point out in the OP where there is evidence that nothing in the OT contradicts what the OP alleges. There are least two sides to every story. The OP is being one sided. The OP is doing what unbelieving Jews do. Look how well that worked out for unbelieving Jews. Unbelieving Jews prove that everything can't be determined from one testament alone. Because if it could, why are they not determining from the OT alone that Christ is the Messiah, and that He has already come, already left, and is returning?
Then there is this to factor in.
Isaiah 60:9 ¶Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.
11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.
13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.
14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
15 ¶Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.
16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
17 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness.
18 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise.
19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.
Anyone comparing some of that to the NT should be able to see that the NHNE is in view here by comparing to Revelation 21-22. Therefore, there is this in NHNE context to take into account---For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted. That can't be meaning after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled. That can't be meaning before Christ returns since the NHNE in Revelation 21-22 is after Christ returns, not before He returns.
Then one needs to explain this below, where it is obvious it is meaning what I submit from Revelation.
Isaiah 65:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Are Amils going to call Jesus a liar here, keeping in mind Jesus is the speaker here? What I have underlined does not say this---I will NOT make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. It says this instead---I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee
How do Amils propose that Jesus ever fulfills that promise if Amils have all of those meant in Revelation 3:9 in the LOF when Christ returns, and that Isaiah 65:14 is obviously meaning after Christ returns, not before He returns?
But it is we Premils that are avoiding the evidence. God forbid that it can be Amils doing that. Their view is flawless, apparently. Everything in both the OT and NT fit their view to a T. Nothing in the OT nor NT contradicts their view..nothing. Yea, right, if you say so.
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Since you tend to take all these things literally, maybe Zachariah 14:16 is talking about what happens after an unbeliever dies. The account of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 has the rich man asking for his tongue to be cooled with a drop of water. In Zachariah 14:17 there is no rain unless they come unto Jerusalem and worship.
So perhaps after death the unbelievers are punished more severely if they refuse to come “unto” Jerusalem and worship, meaning they couldn’t enter into Jerusalem. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess at some point in time, so maybe the Zechariah 14:17 “no rain” forces even the most stubborn unbelievers into worshiping during their second death.
More avoidance.
Isaiah 60 is talking about the benefits of salvation. Where does it mention the NHNE? Your modus operandi is to explain away clear, explicit and repeated New Testament Scripture with your faulty misinterpreted misplaced opinion of Old Testament Scripture. That is have done in this thread and this is what you typically do.
Address the Op and stop avoiding!
I don't know what sense to take Zechariah 14:16-19 in pertaining to this no rain unless they come up year to year. All I know is, that it is meaning after Zechariah 14:12 has been fulfilled. And the fact they can be punished for not complying implies a rebellion is possible eventually. Which is what Revelation 20:7-9 is involving.
Amils insist there are things hidden in the OT revealed in the NT, then contradict that by demanding, where does it mention this in that OT text or that in the OT text? Ummm, I thought you believe there are things hidden in the OT revealed in the NT? Aren't you contradicting that you believe that to be so by demanding to see something in the OT texts that is supposed to be hidden until it is revealed in the NT first? IOW, they are making zero sense by demanding to see things in the OT texts that are supposed to be hidden until the NT reveals them.
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Isaiah 65:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
What about what I submitted here from another post I made? Isaiah 65:14 couldn't possibly support that the LOF is in view here. As if someone that is burning in the LOF or will be burning it, is going to call the LOF The city of the LORD. So, IOW, the city of the LORD is what is in view here, not the LOF. And this couldn't possibly be meaning before Christ returns unless someone can show how Revelation 3:9 has already been fulfilled, keeping in mind that Isaiah 65:14 appears to be involving what Jesus said He was going to make them do per what He said in Revelation 3:9.
Not to mention, obviously, the city of the Lord is meaning the new Jerusalem. When does the new Jerusalem come down from heaven according to Revelation 21? Before Christ returns? Or after Christ returns? Ummm, maybe I shouldn't be asking you that, though. You being mainly Preterist pertaining to lot of things some of the rest of us apply differently.
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Interestingly enough, I can’t find the post, but recently the Amil crowd questioned me about things being hidden in the OT being revealed in the NT.
Well those verses don’t say they are in the city, only that they bow at the soles of the feet of the believers. If the LOF is under or somewhere outside of the New Jerusalem city then those verses would still be true.
New Jerusalem comes down after Christ returns. Do you think people have come to the heavenly Jerusalem yet or not?
I'll get back to the rest of Isaiah 60 later, maybe. In the meantime, prove then how what Jesus said in Revelation 3:8, where that is obviously referring to Isaiah 60:14, how He fulfills that before He returns not after He returns? Meaning when Jesus said this---Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Every time someone such as you brings up Revelation 3:8, the focus is only this part--them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie, thus yet another way for Amils, such as you, to condemn these ones meant here. Because that ignores that Jesus also said this---Behold, I will make them of the--and this---behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Except you only have Jesus saying this--the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie. That way you feel justified to condemn the ones Jesus isn't even condemning if He is going to do with them what Isaiah 60:14 records He is going to do pertaining to them.
IOW, you and others like you are being dishonest here by only having Jesus saying this in Revelation 3:8---them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie--rather than having Jesus saying what He actually said, that being this---Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
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Spiritually speak, of course they do. But Revelation 21-22 is not still meaning spiritually speaking.
BTW, my view is that the LOF is upon the earth and that it is visible during the thousand years. And it appears that maybe Isaiah 66:24 supports that since they appear to be doing that on the earth and appear to be doing it during the NHNE.
Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
IOW, they appear to be doing this at the beginning of the thousand years. Maybe one reason why, that this serves as a warning for those God spared of the nations when Christ returns. Rebel against me after having spared you, you will then join these other ones that you are looking upon. Of course though, it could be argued that this is meaning at the end of the great white throne judgment except this is involving them seeing carcasses, which appears to fit what Isaiah 66:16 records. That verse couldn't possibly be meaning the GWTJ.
But I also tend to think the NHNE is a process that starts with the thousand years, then is completed once the GWTJ has finished. Therefore, per my view, though the completed NHNE is not in view during the thousand years, the NHNE is still in view, nonetheless. And IMO, Isaiah 60, Isaiah 65, and Zechariah 14, to name a few, appears to support this. Most Premils disagree yet there are some Premils that don't disagree. So it's not like I'm the only Premil on the planet that sees it that way.
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