Reasonable Response To Christ - Justified By Works

[GracePeace]

Conclusion : It seems like though we are justified by works, we're only supposed to think of these works as a reasonable response to the thing Christ has already done for us, not as if we are bringing about all the blessings Christ has already brought about.

(I put the conclusion first, because people may not be motivated to read the reasons why.)

There is a "crimp" to the reality of justification by works that, I think, justifies many in their rejection of it : it is all too easy to end up fearing, and serving out of fear, when you acknowledge the Biblical doctrine that only those who live in righteousness will be justified.

There is no argument against the fact that we will be justified at the Judgment only if we do good (Mt 7, 25; Ro 2, 14; Ja 2; Rv 22); however, if you analyze the parable of the talents, you can see where this can go wrong :

Matthew
24“Now the one who had received the one talent also came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not scatter seed. 25And I was afraid, so I went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you still have what is yours.’
26“But his master answered and said to him, ‘You [f]worthless, lazy slave! Did you know that I reap where I did not sow, and gather where I did not scatter seed? 27Then you ought to have [g]put my money in the bank, and [h]on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28Therefore: take the talent away from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’
29“For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30And throw the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

As a result of the wicked, lazy servant's disposition toward God, he interpreted the Lord and His expectations in a convoluted way : he incorrectly viewed the Lord as austere, and as reaping where He doesn't sow.

The Lord does not reap where He does not sow--He had sowed the talent, a measure of faith, into the servant's life, and expected to reap a harvest. The servant insists that the Lord is insane--he goes to fields where he has not sown, and expects to reap a harvest. The Lord is not unreasonable, but reasonable, in expecting to find that the servant had yielded a harvest, had worked to produce an increase in the Lord's talent.

It is true that we will be justified by works, however, it seems like the life of works is not to be characterized or motivated by fear, but by honoring what has already been given to us, and then reasonably responding. The unforgiving servant was unreasonable, because, by reason, having been forgiven, he ought to have practiced the same, glorifying God.

Paul also says "present yourself as a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing to God, which is your reasonable service" (Ro 12:1), and "therefore, we are obligated to walk after the Spirit" (Ro 8:12,13).

So, even though the "faith alone" crowd is incorrect that we are not going to be justified by not only having but also walking in faith, they are correct to put their focus on all the blessings that are ours on account of what Christ has done; and the "faith and works" crowd is correct that we will be justified by not only having faith but also walking in faith, but, if/when our conclusion tinges our service with fear, as if what Christ had done was ineffective (had essentially sown nothing into our lives), leading to us fearfully trying to bring about the blessings Christ already brought about, that would be where we would be incorrect.

"If Christ has made all these blessings mine, how should I respond? What is the reasonable response?"

I think this approach takes both the doctrine of the finished work of Christ and the doctrine of justification by works into account.

 

[KUWN]

Conclusion : It seems like though we are justified by works, we're only supposed to think of these works as a reasonable response to the thing Christ has already done for us, not as if we are bringing about all the blessings Christ has already brought about.

(I put the conclusion first, because people may not be motivated to read the reasons why.)

There is a "crimp" to the reality of justification by works that, I think, justifies many in their rejection of it : it is all too easy to end up fearing, and serving out of fear, when you acknowledge the Biblical doctrine that only those who live in righteousness will be justified.

There is no argument against the fact that we will be justified at the Judgment only if we do good (Mt 7, 25; Ro 2, 14; Ja 2; Rv 22); however, if you analyze the parable of the talents, you can see where this can go wrong :

Matthew
24“Now the one who had received the one talent also came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not scatter seed. 25And I was afraid, so I went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you still have what is yours.’
26“But his master answered and said to him, ‘You [f]worthless, lazy slave! Did you know that I reap where I did not sow, and gather where I did not scatter seed? 27Then you ought to have [g]put my money in the bank, and [h]on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28Therefore: take the talent away from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’
29“For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30And throw the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

As a result of the wicked, lazy servant's disposition toward God, he interpreted the Lord and His expectations in a convoluted way : he incorrectly viewed the Lord as austere, and as reaping where He doesn't sow.

The Lord does not reap where He does not sow--He had sowed the talent, a measure of faith, into the servant's life, and expected to reap a harvest. The servant insists that the Lord is insane--he goes to fields where he has not sown, and expects to reap a harvest. The Lord is not unreasonable, but reasonable, in expecting to find that the servant had yielded a harvest, had worked to produce an increase in the Lord's talent.

It is true that we will be justified by works, however, it seems like the life of works is not to be characterized or motivated by fear, but by honoring what has already been given to us, and then reasonably responding. The unforgiving servant was unreasonable, because, by reason, having been forgiven, he ought to have practiced the same, glorifying God.

Paul also says "present yourself as a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing to God, which is your reasonable service" (Ro 12:1), and "therefore, we are obligated to walk after the Spirit" (Ro 8:12,13).

So, even though the "faith alone" crowd is incorrect that we are not going to be justified by not only having but also walking in faith, they are correct to put their focus on all the blessings that are ours on account of what Christ has done; and the "faith and works" crowd is correct that we will be justified by not only having faith but also walking in faith, but, if/when our conclusion tinges our service with fear, as if what Christ had done was ineffective (had essentially sown nothing into our lives), leading to us fearfully trying to bring about the blessings Christ already brought about, that would be where we would be incorrect.

"If Christ has made all these blessings mine, how should I respond? What is the reasonable response?"

I think this approach takes both the doctrine of the finished work of Christ and the doctrine of justification by works into account.

GracePeace,

If you check James chapter 2 you will see that there are two justifications. One is before God and one is before men. The justification before God is the justification by faith (salvation). The other justification is before men (vindication) by works. The important thing to keep in mind is that the justification by works does not relate to our salvation, but our vindication/sanctification.

 

[GracePeace]

GracePeace,

If you check James chapter 2 you will see that there are two justifications. One is before God and one is before men. The justification before God is the justification by faith (salvation). The other justification is before men (vindication) by works. The important thing to keep in mind is that the justification by works does not relate to our salvation, but our vindication/sanctification.

Romans 1:17 says "God's righteousness is revealed from faith to faith", defining the Romans 3:21 "righteousness of God" along the lines of Romans 4:12 "steps of faith of our forefather Abraham", and explaining Romans 14:5 "each man must be fully convinced in his own mind [about the actions he is taking]", the breaking of which "Law of Faith" results in condemnation Romans 14:23 "the one who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not of faith, because anything that is not of faith is sin."

Why? God's righteousness is revealed from faith to faith--actions not taken in faith are not God's righteousness. The man not walking in faith is not remaining in Christ, where there is no condemnation Romans 8:1, because he is condemned Romans 14:23.

James indicts his audience as "adulteresses", because they are "friends with the world" thus "enemies of God" : James 2 must, therefore, be a call for his audience, which he assumes is Christian ("adultery" against God means they're "married" to God--they're God's people, but are misbehaving), to repent and complete their incomplete faith by not only having faith but also walking in faith.

 

[Windmill Charge]

We are not justified by works.
Ephesians 2: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Salvation is All from God, we are merely be obedient servants.as Luke 17:10 confirms.

 

[GracePeace]

We are not justified by works.
Ephesians 2: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Salvation is All from God, we are merely be obedient servants.as Luke 17:10 confirms.

If you don't walk in faith, you're condemned, not justified (Ro 14:23)--same as is taught in Romans 2.

"Works" corresponds to "a righteousness of my own" : since "God's righteousness is revealed from faith to faith", walking in faith doesn't qualify as "works", and walking in faith is part of justification, because it is by God's righteousness we are justified.

We were "saved" like the Jews from Egypt--and, just like them, if we sin (if we don't walk in faith we're condemned Ro 14:23) after salvation, we may become reprobate and not inherit God's Kingdom (1 Co 6; 9:27-10:11).

 

[Windmill Charge]

If you don't walk in faith, you're condemned, not justified (Ro 14:23)--same as is taught in Romans 2.

"Works" corresponds to "a righteousness of my own" : since "God's righteousness is revealed from faith to faith", walking in faith doesn't qualify as "works", and walking in faith is part of justification, because it is by God's righteousness we are justified.

We were "saved" like the Jews from Egypt--and, just like them, if we sin (if we don't walk in faith we're condemned Ro 14:23) after salvation, we may become reprobate and not inherit God's Kingdom (1 Co 6; 9:27-10:11).

As James says show me your faith, I by my works show I have faith.

 

[GracePeace]

As James says show me your faith, I by my works show I have faith.

No, works do not automatically flow from faith, or else the believer could never become condemned for breaking the Law of Faith by doing something he doubts is correct (Ro 14:5, 23).

 

[GracePeace]

As James says show me your faith, I by my works show I have faith.

Pardon me, but every sin you commit bears witness against your view--you couldn't sin if "works automatically flow from faith" and you have faith. Your view is inconsistent with what Scripture tells me to believe.

 

[uncle silas]

Pardon me, but every sin you commit bears witness against your view--you couldn't sin if "works automatically flow from faith" and you have faith. Your view is inconsistent with what Scripture tells me to believe.

You quote rom2:13 a lot. It is good not to take one verse in isolation of the surrounding text. You often end up with CON-TEXT.
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 12&13
All who sin under the law will be judged by the law. In that case you would be righteous in God's sight by obeying the law. But, are christians under the law? No! (Rom6:14)
Paul is showing in the chapter the hypocrisy of the Jews, they thought they could be righteous by obeying the law. Read from the begining of the chapter. Then move on to chapter3. When Paul wrote his letters they were not divided up into chapters then:
What shall we conclude then(conclude to what Paul had previously written)? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. verse9


Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. verse20

I could give you at least twenty verses of Paul's that all state the believer cannot be, is not righteous by obeying the law. It really is not wise to try and take one verse in isolation to try and contradict the twenty.

 

[Windmill Charge]

Pardon me, but every sin you commit bears witness against your view--you couldn't sin if "works automatically flow from faith" and you have faith. Your view is inconsistent with what Scripture tells me to believe.

Yes we all constantly sin.
Who can love the Lord their God with ever part of themselves constantly, failure to do this is sin.

But good works do not cancel out sin, only Jesus can do that.
As 1john1:9 says he will forgive us our sins.

 

[GracePeace]

You quote rom2:13 a lot. It is good not to take one verse in isolation of the surrounding text. You often end up with CON-TEXT.
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 12&13
All who sin under the law will be judged by the law. In that case you would be righteous in God's sight by obeying the law. But, are christians under the law? No! (Rom6:14)
Paul is showing in the chapter the hypocrisy of the Jews, they thought they could be righteous by obeying the law. Read from the begining of the chapter. Then move on to chapter3. When Paul wrote his letters they were not divided up into chapters then:
What shall we conclude then(conclude to what Paul had previously written)? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. verse9


Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. verse20

I could give you at least twenty verses of Paul's that all state the believer cannot, is not righteous by obeying the law. It really is not wise to try and take one verse in isolation to try and contradict the twenty.

Ro 2 warns the Jewish believers they're storing up wrath and will not be justified or receive life at the upcoming judgment--but the believing Gentiles who serve in newness of the Spirit are deemed "doers of the Law" who will be justified and receive life.

Those who walk after the Spirit fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law (Ro 8:4)--that's why those who do things they doubt are "condemned".

 

[GracePeace]

Yes we all constantly sin.
Who can love the Lord their God with ever part of themselves constantly, failure to do this is sin.

But good works do not cancel out sin, only Jesus can do that.
As 1john1:9 says he will forgive us our sins.

Yep, still, the one who breaks the Law of Faith, does what he doubts, is condemned Ro 14:5, 23.

 

[uncle silas]

Ro 2 warns the Jewish believers they're storing up wrath and will not be justified or receive life at the upcoming judgment--but the believing Gentiles who serve in newness of the Spirit are deemed "doers of the Law" who will be justified and receive life.

Those who walk after the Spirit fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law (Ro 8:4)--that's why those who do things they doubt are "condemned".

Well as long as you agree that being justified/righteous by obeying law requires perfect obedience of it(Gal3:10&11) it's cool

 

[GracePeace]

Well as long as you agree that being justified/righteous by obeying law requires perfect obedience of it(Gal3:10&11) it's cool

You're not understanding what I'm saying... maybe I can be clearer.

 

[GracePeace]

Well as long as you agree that being justified/righteous by obeying law requires perfect obedience of it(Gal3:10&11) it's cool

I am in the US... good night

 

[uncle silas]

You're not understanding what I'm saying... maybe I can be clearer.

You're not understanding what I'm saying... maybe I can be clearer.

Lets be clear on Paul's core message:
Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4
Bearing that verse in mind:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law/not committing sin, rather through the law we become conscious of sin. Rom3:20
In the real world, and outside of head theology, if you tell someone, that by following after the Holy Spirit they will obey the law and therefore be righteous before God, they will, inevitably hinge their hope of Heaven on obeying the law

 

[uncle silas]

I am in the US... good night

Goodnight

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I am honestly amazed people get James and Paul so confused and messed up as if they are teaching different gospels.

James did not contradict paul.

Paul made it clear in romans 4.

Abraham was justified by faith apart from works. In fact. Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness. This is before he did one work.

Later. Paul says not only was James justified by this faith apart from works. But all of his children would also be saved by this same faith. All people of all time have been saved by Grace through faith and nto of themselves. it is Gods gift..

James then comes in. And tells people he is talking to to examine themselves. To test themselves. he says there are far to many who are hearers of the word only and not doers of the word. He then gets down and calls them out. What did it profit you if you CLAIM to have faith (notice he never said they had faith. he said they claimed they had faith) But have no work. Can that (claimed) faith save you?

Of course the answer is no. True faith works. All we have to do is look at the faith hall of fame in Hebrews. and we see. Not only abraham, but all the great people of faith did nto just have lip service. their faith actually worked.

You do not claim you have faith in someone. then NEVER do anything they say.. That is a false faith. A claimed faith. A dead faith.

This is who James is calling out.. Abraham proved his faith decades after he was saved,, His faith was not dead. You show me your faith without your works. i will prove to you (men) my faith by my works.

 

[GracePeace]

Lets be clear on Paul's core message:
Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4

Paul didnt write 1 Jn. Paul describes men who sinned without the law (Ro 1, 2, 5), and their sin was not "transgression", bc that only occurs where there is explicit knowledge (hence the contrast between their sin and Adam's sin, "did not sin after the likeness of Adam").

Bearing that verse in mind:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law/not committing sin, rather through the law we become conscious of sin. Rom3:20

1. He's talking to Jewish believers (Ro 2:17, 4:1 7:1); Gentiles never were under Law.
2. Yeah, no lost person can be justified by being a doer of the Law, but saved people can do the Law because God is working in them to will and do for His pleasure. Whose Law do you suppose His working in them fulfills? Paul says "that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according the flesh but according to the Spirit" Ro 8:4--walking in faith Ro 14:5 is walking in the Spirit, which is how the Gentile believers are deemed "doers of the Law" (who will be justified by that gift of righteousness they're walking in--God's righteousness--whereas those who don't walk in faith aren't abiding in God's righteousness, and face condemnation, not justification).
3. Doesn't Christ condemn workers of lawlessness--deny, not confess, them?

In the real world, and outside of head theology, if you tell someone, that by following after the Holy Spirit they will obey the law and therefore be righteous before God, they will, inevitably hinge their hope of Heaven on obeying the law

1. Men are justified by righteousness. In this case, though, men are justified by God's righteousness.
Now, don't blame me for the verse saying if you don't walk in faith you're not justified but condemned Ro 14:5,23. In that moment, they're not remaining in God's righteousness. How is there ever "condemnation" if the believer has God's righteousness (whereby he would/should be justified) at all times?
Doesn't my reading actually help explain how the Jewish believers are warned they are storing up wrath for themselves on that Day Ro 2?
2. Not at all, because walking in faith differs from person to person Ro 14--it's actually freedom, whereas the Law is slavery. "For freedom Christ set us free--only don't use your freedom as a cloak for the flesh, but serve one another."
Christ made us at peace, so we should remain at peace, not disturb our peace--acting contrary to conviction disturbs your peace
3. God's righteousness is by grace through faith--if you break the Law of Faith, you don't abide in God's righteousness, where there is no condemnation Ro 8:1, but are condemned Ro 14:23.

 

[uncle silas]

Paul didnt write 1 Jn. Paul describes men who sinned without the law (Ro 1, 2, 5), and their sin was not "transgression", bc that only occurs where there is explicit knowledge (hence the contrast between their sin and Adam's sin, "did not sin after the likeness of Adam").

1. He's talking to Jewish believers (Ro 2:17, 4:1 7:1); Gentiles never were under Law.
2. Yeah, no lost person can be justified by being a doer of the Law, but saved people can do the Law because God is working in them to will and do for His pleasure. Whose Law do you suppose His working in them fulfills? Paul says "that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according the flesh but according to the Spirit" Ro 8:4--walking in faith Ro 14:5 is walking in the Spirit, which is how the Gentile believers are deemed "doers of the Law" (who will be justified by that gift of righteousness they're walking in--God's righteousness--whereas those who don't walk in faith aren't abiding in God's righteousness, and face condemnation, not justification).
3. Doesn't Christ condemn workers of lawlessness--deny, not confess, them?

1. Men are justified by righteousness. In this case, though, men are justified by God's righteousness.
Now, don't blame me for the verse saying if you don't walk in faith you're not justified but condemned Ro 14:5,23. In that moment, they're not remaining in God's righteousness. How is there ever "condemnation" if the believer has God's righteousness (whereby he would/should be justified) at all times?
Doesn't my reading actually help explain how the Jewish believers are warned they are storing up wrath for themselves on that Day Ro 2?
2. Not at all, because walking in faith differs from person to person Ro 14--it's actually freedom, whereas the Law is slavery. "For freedom Christ set us free--only don't use your freedom as a cloak for the flesh, but serve one another."
Christ made us at peace, so we should remain at peace, not disturb our peace--acting contrary to conviction disturbs your peace
3. God's righteousness is by grace through faith--if you break the Law of Faith, you don't abide in God's righteousness, where there is no condemnation Ro 8:1, but are condemned Ro 14:23.

How well are you doing the law?



Do you ever put anything before God in your life?

Do you ever build any graven images in your mind?

Do you always honour your parents without exception.

Do you ever looked at a woman with lust in your eye? (Jesus ratified the commandment)

Have you ever fibbed about anyone, or been untruthful about a person in anyway?

Have you dwelt on any impure thought?

Do you ever desire ANYTHING of your neighbours, whether material goods or a member of their household?

Do you fully obey the law relating to the inner man, the law only you and God need know you break?

Christ’s commands

If someone asked to lend from you would you gladly lend to them without ever expecting anything back?

If someone stole from you, would you offer them more than what they stole with nothing but love in your heart for them?

Do you not invite friends or family home for a meal, but rather the poor, blind, lame and beggars?

If you have ever fasted, have you even hinted to anyone you are fasting?

Do you truly in your heart love your enemies, those who may malign, harass or persecute you?

Do you leap for joy if you are persecuted?

Do you always truly love all those you come into contact with in thought, word or deed, constantly, including your enemies, those who may be unkind to us, persecute or harass us?



All examples of what it takes to obey the TC, Christ’s teaching and the second greatest commandment.