Some key points pertaining to the parable per Luke 19:11-27.

[Davidpt]

The first thing to note is what verse 11 does not say.

Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

This verse does not say the kingdom of God will never appear. It just won't immediately appear like they were assuming it should and the very next verse tells us the reasons why.

Luke 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Obviously, the kingdom can't immediately appear if Jesus has to go away first, then receive a kingdom for Himself, then return.

Let's fast forward to the following for a moment.

Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

It is undeniable, this is when the kingdom literally appears. Anyone that would argue otherwise are arguing nonsense, as if there will never be a kingdom one can literally behold with their own eyes once Jesus returns. Of course there will be. Now that that's out of the way, let's look at verse 13 next.

Luke 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

To understand this part is simple. This is meaning from the time of His ascension through His return in the end of this age. That is when He comes, thus returns. In the meantime He is bodily in heaven. I don't want to get into the purpose of the 10 pounds since everyone can draw their own conclusions about that. What I do want to focus on though, thus will be the main focus of the OP, which I feel is relevant per this endless Premil vs. Amil debate is how Jesus rewards these when He returns that He entrusted with this 10 pounds. I'll get to that later. First let's look at verse 14 next.

Luke 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

Who should we assume His citizens are meaning here? Because whoever they are meaning, it is not until Jesus returns that they are dealt with.

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

This can't possibly be meaning the unbelieving Jews that were destroyed in 70 AD. Verse 27 is not meaning 70 AD, it is meaning after He has bodily returned, thus after He has stepped foot back on this planet, the same planet some Amils have literally engulfed in flames when Christ returns.

Not to mention, if true, well there goes the entire animal kingdom then, since there is no ark to preserve them this time around. Which is really bizarre that God felt a need to preserve the animal kingdom during the flood but no longer finds the need to preserve them when Christ returns. He just burns them all up instead. And it wouldn't surprise me if some of these Amils think there will be animals on the new earth. Talk about contradictions. There are going to be animals on the new earth except God burned all of the animals up when He returned.

Not to mention, infants being burned alive, children being burned alive, etc. After all, He never spared any of those during the flood so why would He spare them this time around, right? This assuming these Amils are correct that the entire planet is engulfed in flames when He returns.

BTW, all of these things are relevant if there is going to be a 1000 year era of time following Christ's return. Can't have an era of time like that if the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames when Christ returns. Thus the reason I brought some of those things up, that it doesn't make sense that the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames when Christ returns when there has to be an era of time to still fulfill after Christ has returned.

 

[Davidpt]

The OP continued...

Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.


This is the main focus right here, mainly verse 17 in this case---because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. The keyword is this--authority. And that we have to keep in mind that He grants them this authority when He returns, and at this point in time, it is obviously not meaning 1 Corithians 15:28 yet. Anyone that might argue otherwise, are they going to argue that Luke 19:27 is meaning after 1 Corithians 15:28 has been fulfilled rather than before it is fulfilled? Probably not, right?

Now that we got that straightened out that He grants them this authority after He returns but prior to 1 Corinthians 15:28 being fulfilled, what then is He expecting them to do with this authority and how long is He expecting them to use this authority? Wonder if Amils have an answer for that? I'm pretty sure Premils do, but I want to know if Amils do as well. Do Amils think, the fact the timing per Luke 19:17 is undeniably meaning before 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled, that they maintain this authority forever, meaning even after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled?

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Obviously, the end meant here is meaning 1 Corinthians 15:28. And note what verse 24 says--when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. It looks like to me, in general, things involving authority are done away with altogether once 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled. So why is Jesus giving anyone authority over anything when He returns, if the same day He returns He takes this same authority He just granted them away? How does that make good sense? Isn't that what Amils would have us believe since there are no more days after the last day of this age according to Amil, right?

Therefore, it is not reasonable that there is no thousand year era after Christ returns in order to fulfill these things. What else could possibly explain these things if not that? That Jesus grants authority over things when He returns, but once 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, things pertaining to authority over something is no longer necessary. IOW, there is no one or anything to have authority over at this point. Yet, Amil would have us believe Premil is false and that Amil is true even though Premil has an explanation for some of these things but Amil doesn't. There is something wrong with that picture, don't you think?

 

[Marty fox]

A belief in a literal kingdom is the reason that the Jews missed their God and Messiah and this same reason is why a lot of the church are still missing it today

 

[IndianaRob]

A belief is a literal kingdom is the reason that the Jews missed their God and Messiah and this same reason is why a lot of the church are still missing it today

Exactly!

 

[tailgator]

A belief is a literal kingdom is the reason that the Jews missed their God and Messiah and this same reason is why a lot of the church are still missing it today

Not all Jews missed their God and Messiah.If they had,you would have never heard any of the gospel.

Fact is,a few Jews who we call apostles believed in a literal kingdom and wanted to be in that kingdom.Some even wanted to rule in that kingdom and stated as much.

You might not believe in that kingdom as many unbelieving jews .But the Jews who believed suffered persecution and death for that kingdom.

They did not die in vain. They will receive their reward.

 

[tailgator]

Revelation 11

The Seventh Trumpet​

15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”
16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”



They will receive their reward

 

[Davidpt]

A belief is a literal kingdom is the reason that the Jews missed their God and Messiah and this same reason is why a lot of the church are still missing it today

Let's get on the same page here at least. First of all, as pertaining to a literal kingdom. the parable is involving after Christ has returned, in regards to a kingdom. You would have us believe that there is no literal kingdom, one that one can touch, see with their own eyes, after Christ has returned? THat everyone forever still has to live by faith not sight? IOW, let's don't conflate the here and now with that of His bodily return in the future. That is being dishonest, IMO, unless one can convincingly prove there will never be a literal kingdom to behold with one's own eyes after Christ has returned.

And maybe you are misunderstanding what it means if there is an era involving a thousand years after Christ returns? It doesn't make the kingdom a thousand year kingdom, though. That's ludicrous that an everlasting kingdom is only a thousand years rather than everlasting. It would simply mean that this 1000 years are the first thousand years of this everlasting kingdom once it has appeared with Jesus when He returns per what is recorded in Luke 19. IOW, this thousand years come and go, yet the everlasting kingdom remains.

I don't know where the crazy idea comes from that this means there are two kingdoms involved if the thousand years are post the 2nd coming? Certainly not from me. Where there is a temporary thousand year kingdom followed by and replaced with an everlasting kingdom. That doesn't even make sense. Nothing supports that, yet that doesn't mean the thousand years can't be post the 2nd coming, though.

Here's an idea, let's talk about this authority Jesus grants those He entrusted these pounds with when He returns. Obviously, like I already pointed out, 1 Corinthians 15:28 has not been fulfilled at this point, and Luke 19:27 alone proves it since that verse is still involving death, something that wont even be possible once 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled.

Why do Amils think Jesus is giving these authority over things when He returns? To do what with? And for how long?

 

[Davidpt]

Revelation 11

The Seventh Trumpet​

15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”
16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”



They will receive their reward

And if that reward includes having authority over something, what is it that they are having authority over and how long are they having authority over whatever they are having authority over? Luke 19 indicates that it is cities, tbh though, I'm not certain what that might look like. All I know is that He is handing out this authority when He returns and that He is doing it before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled.

 

[IndianaRob]

The first thing to note is what verse 11 does not say.

Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

This verse does not say the kingdom of God will never appear. It just won't immediately appear like they were assuming it should and the very next verse tells us the reasons why.

Luke 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Obviously, the kingdom can't immediately appear if Jesus has to go away first, then receive a kingdom for Himself, then return.

Let's fast forward to the following for a moment.

Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

It is undeniable, this is when the kingdom literally appears. Anyone that would argue otherwise are arguing nonsense, as if there will never be a kingdom one can literally behold with their own eyes once Jesus returns. Of course there will be. Now that that's out of the way, let's look at verse 13 next.

Luke 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

To understand this part is simple. This is meaning from the time of His ascension through His return in the end of this age. That is when He comes, thus returns. In the meantime He is bodily in heaven. I don't want to get into the purpose of the 10 pounds since everyone can draw their own conclusions about that. What I do want to focus on though, thus will be the main focus of the OP, which I feel is relevant per this endless Premil vs. Amil debate is how Jesus rewards these when He returns that He entrusted with this 10 pounds. I'll get to that later. First let's look at verse 14 next.

Luke 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

Who should we assume His citizens are meaning here? Because whoever they are meaning, it is not until Jesus returns that they are dealt with.

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

This can't possibly be meaning the unbelieving Jews that were destroyed in 70 AD. Verse 27 is not meaning 70 AD, it is meaning after He has bodily returned, thus after He has stepped foot back on this planet, the same planet some Amils have literally engulfed in flames when Christ returns.

Not to mention, if true, well there goes the entire animal kingdom then, since there is no ark to preserve them this time around. Which is really bizarre that God felt a need to preserve the animal kingdom during the flood but no longer finds the need to preserve them when Christ returns. He just burns them all up instead. And it wouldn't surprise me if some of these Amils think there will be animals on the new earth. Talk about contradictions. There are going to be animals on the new earth except God burned all of the animals up when He returned.

Not to mention, infants being burned alive, children being burned alive, etc. After all, He never spared any of those during the flood so why would He spare them this time around, right? This assuming these Amils are correct that the entire planet is engulfed in flames when He returns.

BTW, all of these things are relevant if there is going to be a 1000 year era of time following Christ's return. Can't have an era of time like that if the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames when Christ returns. Thus the reason I brought some of those things up, that it doesn't make sense that the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames when Christ returns when there has to be an era of time to still fulfill after Christ has returned.

The key verse in Luke 19 is verse 11.

Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

That kingdom of God is the same kingdom of God as this one.

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:


Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

 

[WPM]

some Amils have literally engulfed in flames when Christ returns.

Not to mention, if true, well there goes the entire animal kingdom then, since there is no ark to preserve them this time around. Which is really bizarre that God felt a need to preserve the animal kingdom during the flood but no longer finds the need to preserve them when Christ returns. He just burns them all up instead. And it wouldn't surprise me if some of these Amils think there will be animals on the new earth. Talk about contradictions. There are going to be animals on the new earth except God burned all of the animals up when He returned.

Not to mention, infants being burned alive, children being burned alive, etc. After all, He never spared any of those during the flood so why would He spare them this time around, right? This assuming these Amils are correct that the entire planet is engulfed in flames when He returns.

What do you mean "some"?

We need to first of all realize that who God really is. Hebrews 12:29 tells us: “For our God is a consuming fire.” When He comes in majesty and glory no one left behind is going to escape His wrath. The coming of the Lord will be fiery and climactic. Jesus is returning in flaming fire. There will be no survivors. The evidence for this is overwhelming.

2 Samuel 22:9 states: "There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it."

Job 41:20-21 explains: "Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron. His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth."

Psalm 18:7-8 instructs: "the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth. There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it."

Psalm 68: 1-3 declares, "Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.”

Psalm 97:3-5 testifies, “A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about. His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled. The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.”

Isaiah 11:4-5 records: "But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins."

Isaiah 13:9 says, “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.”

Isaiah 30:33: "For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it."

Isaiah 33:13-17 warns us: “Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might.The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?” He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall besure. Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

Isaiah 66:15-17: “For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.”

Joel 2:1-3 says, “for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.”

Joel 2:10-11: “The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”

Nahum 1:5-6 says, “The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.”

Malachi says, "For behold, the dayis coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day whicHis coming shall burn them up" (Malachi 4:1).

Here you have it!!!

Jesus said in Luke 17:29-30, “the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

It describes the swiftness and the scope. This is supported by much other Scripture.

Jesus said in Luke 21:33-36: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

This passage locates the passing away of heaven and earth at the second coming and demonstrates, like in Noah’s day, it will come “as a snare … on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.”

I Thessalonians 5:2-3: “the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

Paul says, “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day” (II Thessalonians 1:7-10).

How could the wicked survive this? It is impossible!

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! There are no goats left to enter into the supposed Premil future millennium!!!

How does anyone left behind survive this? What unsaved person is exempt from this description “them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ”?

 

[WPM]

some Amils have literally engulfed in flames when Christ returns.

Not to mention, if true, well there goes the entire animal kingdom then, since there is no ark to preserve them this time around. Which is really bizarre that God felt a need to preserve the animal kingdom during the flood but no longer finds the need to preserve them when Christ returns. He just burns them all up instead. And it wouldn't surprise me if some of these Amils think there will be animals on the new earth. Talk about contradictions. There are going to be animals on the new earth except God burned all of the animals up when He returned.

Not to mention, infants being burned alive, children being burned alive, etc. After all, He never spared any of those during the flood so why would He spare them this time around, right? This assuming these Amils are correct that the entire planet is engulfed in flames when He returns.

BTW, all of these things are relevant if there is going to be a 1000 year era of time following Christ's return. Can't have an era of time like that if the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames when Christ returns. Thus the reason I brought some of those things up, that it doesn't make sense that the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames when Christ returns when there has to be an era of time to still fulfill after Christ has returned.

2 Peter 3:3-13: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

How possibly could the wicked survive the second coming and escape the universal conflagration and wholesale destruction? They cannot! It's impossible! The second coming is clearly the end for the wicked, the righteous inherit the new heavens and new earth; not some suppose future thousand years that is polluted by sin, sinners, Satan, death and ongoing corruption. The appearing of Christ spells the end for all unrighteousness. Anything that is not glorified is consumed. Peter demonstrates here that when Jesus comes back the heavens, earth and all that is on the earth, and the elements are going to dissolve. His glory and unchallenged reign will be set up on the new renewed earth.

Premillennialists are forced to dilute the nature of the devastation, localize its extent to a particular region of the globe or spiritualize away the destruction of the wicked completely as a non-literal abstract allegory.

The Premillennialist claims to be a literalist, but there is no spiritualization that can explain this depiction away. It is so water-tight.

What happens to creation when Jesus arrives? 1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise. 2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, 3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. 4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

Revelation 19:11-16 makes clear, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant [Gr. loipoy or remaining ones or those left behind] were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! Check out the detail here and show me how anyone could survive this? Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. This shows how Premillennialists are not the literalists they constantly claim. They spiritualize multiple passages that expose their doctrine. You localize the destruction in Revelation 19, despite it saying the opposite, that “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great” would be destroyed. The suffix "both free and bond, both small and great” is added to insure even Premillennialists couldn’t wiggle out of this. The beast's army relates to all who are not in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Work that out! That is as water-tight and as comprehensive and all-embracing as the Holy Spirit can explain it. Obviously not enough for Premillennialists, with their preconceived doctrine on chronology.

Revelation 20:7-13: “And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

Multiple passages like this reveal to the reader who the real literalists and the spiritualists are.

 

[tailgator]

2 Peter 3:3-13: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

How possibly could the wicked survive the second coming and escape the universal conflagration and wholesale destruction? They cannot! It's impossible! The second coming is clearly the end for the wicked, the righteous inherit the new heavens and new earth; not some suppose future thousand years that is polluted by sin, sinners, Satan, death and ongoing corruption. The appearing of Christ spells the end for all unrighteousness. Anything that is not glorified is consumed. Peter demonstrates here that when Jesus comes back the heavens, earth and all that is on the earth, and the elements are going to dissolve. His glory and unchallenged reign will be set up on the new renewed earth.

Premillennialists are forced to dilute the nature of the devastation, localize its extent to a particular region of the globe or spiritualize away the destruction of the wicked completely as a non-literal abstract allegory.

The Premillennialist claims to be a literalist, but there is no spiritualization that can explain this depiction away. It is so water-tight.

What happens to creation when Jesus arrives? 1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise. 2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, 3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. 4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

Revelation 19:11-16 makes clear, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant [Gr. loipoy or remaining ones or those left behind] were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! Check out the detail here and show me how anyone could survive this? Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. This shows how Premillennialists are not the literalists they constantly claim. They spiritualize multiple passages that expose their doctrine. You localize the destruction in Revelation 19, despite it saying the opposite, that “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great” would be destroyed. The suffix "both free and bond, both small and great” is added to insure even Premillennialists couldn’t wiggle out of this. The beast's army relates to all who are not in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Work that out! That is as water-tight and as comprehensive and all-embracing as the Holy Spirit can explain it. Obviously not enough for Premillennialists, with their preconceived doctrine on chronology.

Revelation 20:7-13: “And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

Multiple passages like this reveal to the reader who the real literalists and the spiritualists are.

While you waiting for his coming ,many will have already traveled east.Your not planning a trip ,are you.
People expecting a new heaven and a new earth at Christs coming don't plan on going east or west.Theg don't know where to go.Dont now where it is.


Mathew 8:11
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Jay Ross]

Like, where do you, as the author of this post, get your understanding that the nobleman who went away into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom before he returns is Jesus. This parable state that the nobleman is not entitled to the harvest of Souls but you are alluding to the fact that he is because you are telling us that he is Jesus whereas in fact the nobleman is Satan and this nobleman is obviously not Jesus

Luke 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Obviously, the kingdom can't immediately appear if Jesus has to go away first, then receive a kingdom for Himself, then return.

The Wicked servant in this parable called the nobleman out as wanting something that was not his to have. This is their recorded conversation in the Parable: -

Luke 19:20-23: - 20 “Then another came, saying, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I have kept put away in a handkerchief. 21 For I feared you, because you are an austere/sever man. You collect what you did not deposit and reap what you did not sow.’ 22 And he said to him, ‘Out of your own mouth I will judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an austere man, collecting what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow. 23 Why then did you not put my money in the bank, that at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’​

Perhaps you need to meditate on this parable bit more to come to the intended context of the parable.

Goodbye.

 

[Davidpt]

Like, where do you, as the author of this post, get your understanding that the nobleman who went away into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom before he returns is Jesus. This parable state that the nobleman is not entitled to the harvest of Souls but you are alluding to the fact that he is because you are telling us that he is Jesus whereas in fact the nobleman is Satan and this nobleman is obviously not Jesus



The Wicked servant in this parable called the nobleman out as wanting something that was not his to have. This is their recorded conversation in the Parable: -

Luke 19:20-23: - 20 “Then another came, saying, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I have kept put away in a handkerchief. 21 For I feared you, because you are an austere/sever man. You collect what you did not deposit and reap what you did not sow.’ 22 And he said to him, ‘Out of your own mouth I will judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an austere man, collecting what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow. 23 Why then did you not put my money in the bank, that at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’​

Perhaps you need to meditate on this parable bit more to come to the intended context of the parable.

Goodbye.

The problem with your interpretation is this. Let's assume for a moment that the one's entrusted with the pounds, that that is who the nobleman is meaning. Unless you haven't noticed, not all of them did what the wicked servant did. Assuming the nobleman is meaning one of these servants, though I obviously disagree, yet for the sake of argument, let's say I agreed. Why then does the nobleman have to be meaning the wicked servant?

Why can't the nobleman mean the servants that weren't wicked? I'm just trying to figure out your mindset here why you have the nobleman meaning the wicked servant rather than the servants that aren't wicked. Per your view of things why can't it be meaning them instead? It's not like there is only the wicked servant in that parable. That parable also involves servants that are not wicked. Why are you not factoring that in?

 

[Davidpt]

The key verse in Luke 19 is verse 11.

Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

That kingdom of God is the same kingdom of God as this one.

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:


Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

At the time of them having said that I wholeheartedly agree Luke 17:20-21 would be applicable. Yet, there is a huge difference between the here and now and when Christ returns, and that the main focus of that parable is when He returns. You are not going to suggest that once He returns, Luke 17:20-21 is still applicable and remains applicable all throughout eternity, are you? You are not going to suggest that the kingdom never literally appears ever, even after He has returned, are you? By literally appearing, I'm meaning something that can be seen with the naked eye, something that can be touched and felt, so on and so on.

 

[Davidpt]

What do you mean "some"?

We need to first of all realize that who God really is. Hebrews 12:29 tells us: “For our God is a consuming fire.” When He comes in majesty and glory no one left behind is going to escape His wrath. The coming of the Lord will be fiery and climactic. Jesus is returning in flaming fire. There will be no survivors. The evidence for this is overwhelming.

2 Samuel 22:9 states: "There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it."

Job 41:20-21 explains: "Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron. His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth."

Psalm 18:7-8 instructs: "the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth. There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it."

Psalm 68: 1-3 declares, "Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.”

Psalm 97:3-5 testifies, “A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about. His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled. The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.”

Isaiah 11:4-5 records: "But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins."

Isaiah 13:9 says, “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.”

Isaiah 30:33: "For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it."

Isaiah 33:13-17 warns us: “Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might.The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?” He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall besure. Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

Isaiah 66:15-17: “For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.”

Joel 2:1-3 says, “for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.”

Joel 2:10-11: “The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”

Nahum 1:5-6 says, “The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.”

Malachi says, "For behold, the dayis coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day whicHis coming shall burn them up" (Malachi 4:1).

Here you have it!!!

Jesus said in Luke 17:29-30, “the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

It describes the swiftness and the scope. This is supported by much other Scripture.

Jesus said in Luke 21:33-36: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

This passage locates the passing away of heaven and earth at the second coming and demonstrates, like in Noah’s day, it will come “as a snare … on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.”

I Thessalonians 5:2-3: “the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

Paul says, “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day” (II Thessalonians 1:7-10).

How could the wicked survive this? It is impossible!

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! There are no goats left to enter into the supposed Premil future millennium!!!

How does anyone left behind survive this? What unsaved person is exempt from this description “them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ”?

Yet, Jesus is rewarding some with authority over things when He returns. For what reason if things should be understood as you laid them out here? He is giving them authority over what? Let's not forget what 'authority' means in general. Having authority over something demands that there has to be something to have authority over. If there is no one remaining but the righteous saved, why would they need authority over anything when everyone should be pretty much equal if everyone is an immortal body state, and that they are all among the saved, meaning humans in this case?

Granted, some get better and more rewards than others do. I get that. But I don't see that pertaining to having authority over something. The parable says they are granted authority over cites, except I admit I don't know what that might look like. I'm assuming literal cities are likely not meant, but then again, who knows, maybe literal cities are meant, especially if Premil is true, which would mean there are cities worldwide to look after.

 

[IndianaRob]

At the time of them having said that I wholeheartedly agree Luke 17:20-21 would be applicable. Yet, there is a huge difference between the here and now and when Christ returns, and that the main focus of that parable is when He returns. You are not going to suggest that once He returns, Luke 17:20-21 is still applicable and remains applicable all throughout eternity, are you? You are not going to suggest that the kingdom never literally appears ever, even after He has returned, are you? By literally appearing, I'm meaning something that can be seen with the naked eye, something that can be touched and felt, so on and so on.

Can you show me one verse in the Bible that says the kingdom of God would ever be a physical earthly kingdom that you can see?

 

[tailgator]

Like, where do you, as the author of this post, get your understanding that the nobleman who went away into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom before he returns is Jesus. This parable state that the nobleman is not entitled to the harvest of Souls but you are alluding to the fact that he is because you are telling us that he is Jesus whereas in fact the nobleman is Satan and this nobleman is obviously not Jesus



The Wicked servant in this parable called the nobleman out as wanting something that was not his to have. This is their recorded conversation in the Parable: -

Luke 19:20-23: - 20 “Then another came, saying, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I have kept put away in a handkerchief. 21 For I feared you, because you are an austere/sever man. You collect what you did not deposit and reap what you did not sow.’ 22 And he said to him, ‘Out of your own mouth I will judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an austere man, collecting what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow. 23 Why then did you not put my money in the bank, that at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’​

Perhaps you need to meditate on this parable bit more to come to the intended context of the parable.

Goodbye.

The nobleman is not a servant.The servants he gives money to were his servants.When that nobleman returns from his long journey,his servants had better be prepared.


Mathew 24

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[tailgator]

Can you show me one verse in the Bible that says the kingdom of God would ever be a physical earthly kingdom that you can see?

Are you capable of seeing the land of Israel?

Ezekiel 37
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.



Are you able to see any kingdom under heaven or can you only see kingdoms floating in the clouds?



Daniel 7
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

 

[IndianaRob]

The nobleman is not a servant.The servants he gives money to were his servants.When that nobleman returns from his long journey,his servants had better be prepared.


Mathew 24

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So these verses are about Jesus bringing in the kingdom of God at his resurrection, but in the futurist view who are these evil servants and who are their fellow servants?

Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;