It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[David in NJ]

Sometimes it takes using logical deducing of things. If Christ fulfilled the Spring feasts in their correct order and correct season, the same has to be true in regards to the Fall feasts. They too have to be fulfilled in the correct order and correct season, keeping in mind that Spring always comes before Fall every year.

And if the last feast recorded in the NT having been fulfilled is the feast of Pentecost, where then are the remaining Fall feasts recorded in Acts that have to be fulfilled after the feast of Pentecost is fulfilled? Meaning if you find alleged evidence of that in the book of Acts or anywhere in the NT for that matter, you then have to prove that each remaining feast was fulfilled in it's correct order and that it was fulfilled in the Fall and that they were fulfilled, not before the feast of Pentecost was, but after it was. IOW, one can't use, for example, John 7 to prove any of that since that was meaning before the feast of Pentecost was fulfilled, not after.

Christ has Fulfilled ALL 7 Feasts

Pentecost is a Spring Feast

for you: A Concise Overview of the Seven Feasts of Israel

 

[Psalm 139]

100% AGREE and ABSOLUTELY TRUE my Brother = 1 Thess 1:10 & 1 Thess 5:9

We are "to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."


This can be a slippery slope away from God's words.

We are ONLY to believe God and NEVER men who speak from their 'heart'.

Matthew 4:4 - “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

“The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
I, the Lord, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give every man according to his ways,
According to the fruit of his doings. - Jeremiah 17:9

When men say 'pre-trib' rapture and you are unable to find God saying this = WARNING = somebody is not speaking Truth

So i encourage you to seek the Lord and in His Truth, because there does not exist in the entirety of scripture a single pre-trib rapture verse or passage.

EXAMPLE: Listen to JESUS and Him alone - John 16:33
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace.
In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

God Bless you and may you draw closer to JESUS and His words, for in them you will know TRUTH

Thank you for your concern.

God bless.

 

[Davidpt]

Christ has Fulfilled ALL 7 Feasts

Pentecost is a Spring Feast

for you: A Concise Overview of the Seven Feasts of Israel

Why are you insisting Christ has fulfilled, as in already, then providing that link which contradicts that, at least according 6. on that list, meaning the following? Plus 7. on that list as well since that author is using Zechariah 14 to support that, in regards to the feast of tabernacles.

-------------------
6. Atonement (Yom Kippur). Leviticus 23:27 provides a day of confession, the highest of holy days. "Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a Day of Atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord." This is the one feast that is not fulfilled by the church, because the Church owes no atonement. The Church is not innocent, of course, but it is exonerated. The Day of Atonement will be fulfilled in a wonderful way when the Lord returns at His Second Coming. [more]

https://hebrew4christians.com/Holidays/Introduction/introduction.html
--------------------------------

That author at that link you provided said this--- The Day of Atonement will be fulfilled in a wonderful way when the Lord returns at His Second Coming---which doesn't sound like this to me what you said here----Christ has Fulfilled ALL 7 Feasts

If you had said this instead, thus left the 'past tense' out of it---Christ Fulfills ALL 7 Feasts--I would be agreeing with that. So unless you meant something else by 'has fulfilled', I have to disagree He has already fulfilled all 7 feasts. More like 4 not 7. And the fact there are two comings, one when He was born, a 2nd one when He returns, I see zero issue with Him having only fulfilled 4 of them already, then the other 3 when He returns. It still equals this no matter how you look at it--Christ fulfills all 7 feasts.

 

[IndianaRob]

Oh. That is called manipulating Scripture to support your error. You could literally make it say what you want. I see!

What part of what I said do you disagree with?

Why are you insisting Christ has fulfilled, as in already, then providing that link which contradicts that, at least according 6. on that list, meaning the following? Plus 7. on that list as well since that author is using Zechariah 14 to support that, in regards to the feast of tabernacles.

-------------------
6. Atonement (Yom Kippur). Leviticus 23:27 provides a day of confession, the highest of holy days. "Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a Day of Atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord." This is the one feast that is not fulfilled by the church, because the Church owes no atonement. The Church is not innocent, of course, but it is exonerated. The Day of Atonement will be fulfilled in a wonderful way when the Lord returns at His Second Coming. [more]

A Concise Overview of the Seven Feasts of Israel
--------------------------------

That author at that link you provided said this--- The Day of Atonement will be fulfilled in a wonderful way when the Lord returns at His Second Coming---which doesn't sound like this to me what you said here----Christ has Fulfilled ALL 7 Feasts

If you had said this instead, thus left the 'past tense' out of it---Christ Fulfills ALL 7 Feasts--I would be agreeing with that. So unless you meant something else by 'has fulfilled', I have to disagree He has already fulfilled all 7 feasts. More like 4 not 7. And the fact there are two comings, one when He was born, a 2nd one when He returns, I see zero issue with Him having only fulfilled 4 of them already, then the other 3 when He returns. It still equals this no matter how you look at it--Christ fulfills all 7 feasts.

I went to the link too and I completely agree with what you’re saying.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I agree they twist a lot of scripture both sides do though.

Show me an example of where I did that

 

[rebuilder 454]

You are one of the few that I have come across that realizes that Jesus comes for the Jews. You also believe in a pretrib rapture. That's two raptures.

The days of Noah is a picture of the rapture of the Church. Noah is in the ark before the flood.

The days of Lot is a picture of the harvest of the Jews. The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. When Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest, the day of the Lord will begin. The day of the Lord is one year.

The fig tree has two harvests, FACT. There are two raptures.

The fig tree (the covenant Jews),has 2 Gatherings in rev 14

Firstfruits are vs 1-4
Main harvest vs 14.
Fig tree = Jewish harvest.
Grapes = Jewish harvest
Jew is the fruit harvest

The church is the Gentile harvest, the bride as depicted in Rurh. The grain harvest...also depicted in Ruth.

The gathering after the trib in mat 24 is the second coming on white horses
(The saints in heaven are gathered in heaven by the Angels, to stage in heaven on the white horses in heaven.) As the Bible states.

Lot and Noah are used by Jesus to point to the same pretrib gathering.
Neither is postrib as the Bible states.

 

[David in NJ]

Why are you insisting Christ has fulfilled, as in already, then providing that link which contradicts that, at least according 6. on that list, meaning the following? Plus 7. on that list as well since that author is using Zechariah 14 to support that, in regards to the feast of tabernacles.

-------------------
6. Atonement (Yom Kippur). Leviticus 23:27 provides a day of confession, the highest of holy days. "Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a Day of Atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord." This is the one feast that is not fulfilled by the church, because the Church owes no atonement. The Church is not innocent, of course, but it is exonerated. The Day of Atonement will be fulfilled in a wonderful way when the Lord returns at His Second Coming. [more]

A Concise Overview of the Seven Feasts of Israel
--------------------------------

That author at that link you provided said this--- The Day of Atonement will be fulfilled in a wonderful way when the Lord returns at His Second Coming---which doesn't sound like this to me what you said here----Christ has Fulfilled ALL 7 Feasts

If you had said this instead, thus left the 'past tense' out of it---Christ Fulfills ALL 7 Feasts--I would be agreeing with that. So unless you meant something else by 'has fulfilled', I have to disagree He has already fulfilled all 7 feasts. More like 4 not 7. And the fact there are two comings, one when He was born, a 2nd one when He returns, I see zero issue with Him having only fulfilled 4 of them already, then the other 3 when He returns. It still equals this no matter how you look at it--Christ fulfills all 7 feasts.

CHRIST has already Fulfilled the 7 Feasts in HIMSELF = FIRST

First things first my Brother

If you are willing to dwell on that for a while then we can move forward to what remains according to God's words and not man/religion/denominationalism

 

[rebuilder 454]

Maybe there are 2 last trumps as well. Right? Keeping in mind that the last trump recorded in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is obviously the same trump recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. After all, both accounts involve someone literally bodily rising from the dead. It makes no sense to bodily rise from the dead unless one is going to be putting on bodily immortality at the time. 1 Corinthians 15:52 makes it crystal,clear that that happens at the last trump.

Is one going to argue, for example, when Christ bodily rose from the dead, that He did not put on bodily immortality at the time but had to wait until sometime later to do that? The point being, if the trumpet recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is not meaning the last trumpet recorded in 1 Corinthians 15:52, and that 1 Thessalonians 4:16 involves someone bodily rising from te dead, this would mean they are bodily rising in vain if it is not until 3.5 years later or more when they finally get around to putting on bodily immortality.

If a position, such as Pretrib, leads to nonsense like this, shouldn't the nonsense it leads to be enough alone to convince Pretribbers that Pretrib can't be Biblical? Why don't Pretribbers ever factor in things like that before insisting Pretrib is Biblical, some of the nonsense it leads to if Pretrib is true?

One of your verses says God will sound a trump at the rapture.
Another of your verses says " the last trump"
You say Both are "the last trump."
Here is yet another trump of God indicating that no matter how many times God shows up it could be with a trump.
Rev1
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Trump
Trumpet
Last trump
Last day

All become catch phrases when postribbers invoke them to void out 10 or so solid pretrib rapture verses.
Not how it works.
It is like saying the fig tree is only used in the Bible to point to the Jews.
Nope it CAN DO THAT.
Not always though

 

[IndianaRob]

Show me an example of where I did that

I was making a generalized statement, it wasn’t directed at anyone individual but any futurist is twisting this verse else they wouldn’t be a futurist.

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

 

[David in NJ]

Why are you insisting Christ has fulfilled, as in already, then providing that link which contradicts that, at least according 6. on that list, meaning the following? Plus 7. on that list as well since that author is using Zechariah 14 to support that, in regards to the feast of tabernacles.

-------------------
6. Atonement (Yom Kippur). Leviticus 23:27 provides a day of confession, the highest of holy days. "Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a Day of Atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord." This is the one feast that is not fulfilled by the church, because the Church owes no atonement. The Church is not innocent, of course, but it is exonerated. The Day of Atonement will be fulfilled in a wonderful way when the Lord returns at His Second Coming. [more]

A Concise Overview of the Seven Feasts of Israel
--------------------------------

That author at that link you provided said this--- The Day of Atonement will be fulfilled in a wonderful way when the Lord returns at His Second Coming---which doesn't sound like this to me what you said here----Christ has Fulfilled ALL 7 Feasts

If you had said this instead, thus left the 'past tense' out of it---Christ Fulfills ALL 7 Feasts--I would be agreeing with that. So unless you meant something else by 'has fulfilled', I have to disagree He has already fulfilled all 7 feasts. More like 4 not 7. And the fact there are two comings, one when He was born, a 2nd one when He returns, I see zero issue with Him having only fulfilled 4 of them already, then the other 3 when He returns. It still equals this no matter how you look at it--Christ fulfills all 7 feasts.

P.S. - the website i posted for you was for the purpose of showing the 7 feasts in their proper order and what they were originally intended for.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Your frustration is oozing out. The reason why you are so bitter is because you have no rebuttal to it. None of you Pretribbers can address the Op. What are you scared of?

I may have to relent.
I am so scared.
You ok?

 

[rebuilder 454]

P.S. - the website i posted for you was for the purpose of showing the 7 feasts in their proper order and what they were originally intended for.

Did you ever answer my question about the White Horse coming in Revelation 19, is that the Rapture?

 

[David in NJ]

I may have to relent.
I am so scared.
You ok?

Good Morning

It is never a good thing to believe a lie!

Follow JESUS Today: "man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the Mouth of God."

Feed on TRUTH and you will be strong in the TRUTH
feed on religion and you will be as the religion you feed on

 

[David in NJ]

Did you ever answer my question about the White Horse coming in Revelation 19, is that the Rapture?

i believe i did

Revelation ch19 is the Second Coming of Christ = the ONLY time given in Scripture(from Genesis to Revelation) for the Resurrection and subsequent Rapture.

 

[IndianaRob]

i believe i did

Revelation ch19 is the Second Coming of Christ = the ONLY time given in Scripture(from Genesis to Revelation) for the Resurrection and subsequent Rapture.

So David the marriage of the Lamb is in Revelation 19. Are we not married to Christ right now? Is the marriage something your still waiting to come?

 

[rebuilder 454]

I was making a generalized statement, it wasn’t directed at anyone individual but any futurist is twisting this verse else they wouldn’t be a futurist.

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Jesus said flee the cities persecuting you.
Then he said some of the cities will not have been gone to until Jesus returns.
Why is there any misunderstanding?

 

[IndianaRob]

Jesus said flee the cities persecuting you.
Then he said some of the cities will not have been gone to until Jesus returns.
Why is there any misunderstanding?

If you understand that as the second coming then there is no misunderstanding.

 

[The Light]

The fig tree (the covenant Jews),has 2 Gatherings in rev 14
Firstfruits are vs 1-4
Main harvest vs 14.

First fruits are the first part of a harvest and is not the harvest

Jew is the fruit harvest

Agreed

The church is the Gentile harvest, the bride as depicted in Rurh. The grain harvest...also depicted in Ruth.

Agreed

The gathering after the trib in mat 24 is the second coming on white horses
(The saints in heaven are gathered in heaven by the Angels, to stage in heaven on the white horses in heaven.) As the Bible states.

The gathering in Matthew is the second coming but it is not when Christ returns on white horses. Jesus remains in the clouds for the harvest at the 6th seal. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. After one year they will return on white horses for Armageddon.

Lot and Noah are used by Jesus to point to the same pretrib gathering.

Noah is a picture of the pretrib rapture. He is in the ark BEFORE the flood, not the day of the flood.

Lot is a picture of the Jewish harvest. The same day Lot left Sodom destruction came. The same day of the Jewish harvest destruction will come. That day is the Day of the Lord.

Neither is postrib as the Bible states.

The Bible says immediately after the tribulation of those days. That occurs as the 6th seal. There is a timestamp of the sun, moon and stars. That second harvest is after the tribulation and before the wrath of God.

 

[David in NJ]

So David the marriage of the Lamb is in Revelation 19. Are we not married to Christ right now? Is the marriage something your still waiting to come?

Not me,
for i SEE,
therefore i am Known
along with the Bride that BE

HE that cometh for me
along with the Bride i BE
HE cometh for me and the Bride that BE
do you SEE

HE will Come as HE Promised
Yet if HE is not already
you may not be ready
do you SEE

 

[rebuilder 454]

i believe i did

Revelation ch19 is the Second Coming of Christ = the ONLY time given in Scripture(from Genesis to Revelation) for the Resurrection and subsequent Rapture.

In That model, reconcile I thes 4 ( the dead in christ rise first), with your model of a gathering of the dead in Christ, AFTER the gathering in Rev 14:14
IOW, in your model the dead in christ are not rising first.
You have them rising after the firstfruit Messianic Christian Jews that are gathered DURING the trib.

That alone is damaging, and only one hurdle of many, that postribbers are unaware of.