Leaders That Don't Support Good Works or Overcoming Sin

[Johann]

Amen. Churches have been too soft on sin for too long. Cross-less Christianity, offending no-one. Lost their saltiness. No fear of the Lord either. This makes them little more than social, psychology, philosophy and even political clubs. There's a need to toughen up some, like good soldiers of the cross....but that will only happen if people see where they are going wrong. And if by grace they do start to see, they tend to leave those worldly churches. You know brother, in one way, I believe Egypt and Sodom are types/allegories of erring "churches" that God calls His sheep out of, to go to Him outside the camp, those He rescues. And then what happened to Egypt and Sodom....after the righteous left, they got judged and it wasn't a pretty picture. (I think the allegory is spiritual death and destruction...dead and lifeless places.)

1 Kings 19:1-21 (NKJV)

1 And Ahab told Jezebel all that Elijah had done, also how he had executed all the prophets with the sword.
2 Then Jezebel sent a messenger to Elijah, saying, “So let the gods do to me, and more also, if I do not make your life as the life of one of them by tomorrow about this time.”
3 And when he saw that, he arose and ran for his life, and went to Beersheba, which belongs to Judah, and left his servant there.
4 But he himself went a day’s journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a broom tree. And he prayed that he might die, and said, “It is enough! Now, Lord, take my life, for I am no better than my fathers!”
5 Then as he lay and slept under a broom tree, suddenly an angel touched him, and said to him, “Arise and eat.”
6 Then he looked, and there by his head was a cake baked on coals, and a jar of water. So he ate and drank, and lay down again.
7 And the angel of the Lord came back the second time, and touched him, and said, “Arise and eat, because the journey is too great for you.”
8 So he arose, and ate and drank; and he went in the strength of that food forty days and forty nights as far as Horeb, the mountain of God.
9 And there he went into a cave, and spent the night in that place; and behold, the word of the Lord came to him, and He said to him, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”
10 So he said, “I have been very zealous for the Lord God of hosts; for the children of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars, and killed Your prophets with the sword. I alone am left; and they seek to take my life.”
11 Then He said, “Go out, and stand on the mountain before the Lord.” And behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind tore into the mountains and broke the rocks in pieces before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake;
12 and after the earthquake a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire; and after the fire a still small voice.
13 So it was, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle and went out and stood in the entrance of the cave. Suddenly a voice came to him, and said, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”
14 And he said, “I have been very zealous for the Lord God of hosts; because the children of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars, and killed Your prophets with the sword. I alone am left; and they seek to take my life.”
15 Then the Lord said to him: “Go, return on your way to the Wilderness of Damascus; and when you arrive, anoint Hazael as king over Syria.
16 Also you shall anoint Jehu the son of Nimshi as king over Israel. And Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel Meholah you shall anoint as prophet in your place.
17 It shall be that whoever escapes the sword of Hazael, Jehu will kill; and whoever escapes the sword of Jehu, Elisha will kill.
18 Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”
19 So he departed from there, and found Elisha the son of Shaphat, who was plowing with twelve yoke of oxen before him, and he was with the twelfth. Then Elijah passed by him and threw his mantle on him.
20 And he left the oxen and ran after Elijah, and said, “Please let me kiss my father and my mother, and then I will follow you.”
And he said to him, “Go back again, for what have I done to you?”
21 So Elisha turned back from him, and took a yoke of oxen and slaughtered them and boiled their flesh, using the oxen’s equipment, and gave it to the people, and they ate. Then he arose and followed Elijah, and became his servant.

This chapter records the moment when God reassures Elijah that, despite the widespread apostasy in Israel, 7,000 people have remained faithful, refusing to worship Baal. It also marks the beginning of Elisha’s prophetic ministry as Elijah’s successor.

God is still in control despite the finger pointing.
J.

 

[Lizbeth]

1 Kings 19:1-21 (NKJV)

1 And Ahab told Jezebel all that Elijah had done, also how he had executed all the prophets with the sword.
2 Then Jezebel sent a messenger to Elijah, saying, “So let the gods do to me, and more also, if I do not make your life as the life of one of them by tomorrow about this time.”
3 And when he saw that, he arose and ran for his life, and went to Beersheba, which belongs to Judah, and left his servant there.
4 But he himself went a day’s journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a broom tree. And he prayed that he might die, and said, “It is enough! Now, Lord, take my life, for I am no better than my fathers!”
5 Then as he lay and slept under a broom tree, suddenly an angel touched him, and said to him, “Arise and eat.”
6 Then he looked, and there by his head was a cake baked on coals, and a jar of water. So he ate and drank, and lay down again.
7 And the angel of the Lord came back the second time, and touched him, and said, “Arise and eat, because the journey is too great for you.”
8 So he arose, and ate and drank; and he went in the strength of that food forty days and forty nights as far as Horeb, the mountain of God.
9 And there he went into a cave, and spent the night in that place; and behold, the word of the Lord came to him, and He said to him, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”
10 So he said, “I have been very zealous for the Lord God of hosts; for the children of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars, and killed Your prophets with the sword. I alone am left; and they seek to take my life.”
11 Then He said, “Go out, and stand on the mountain before the Lord.” And behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind tore into the mountains and broke the rocks in pieces before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake;
12 and after the earthquake a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire; and after the fire a still small voice.
13 So it was, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle and went out and stood in the entrance of the cave. Suddenly a voice came to him, and said, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”
14 And he said, “I have been very zealous for the Lord God of hosts; because the children of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars, and killed Your prophets with the sword. I alone am left; and they seek to take my life.”
15 Then the Lord said to him: “Go, return on your way to the Wilderness of Damascus; and when you arrive, anoint Hazael as king over Syria.
16 Also you shall anoint Jehu the son of Nimshi as king over Israel. And Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel Meholah you shall anoint as prophet in your place.
17 It shall be that whoever escapes the sword of Hazael, Jehu will kill; and whoever escapes the sword of Jehu, Elisha will kill.
18 Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”
19 So he departed from there, and found Elisha the son of Shaphat, who was plowing with twelve yoke of oxen before him, and he was with the twelfth. Then Elijah passed by him and threw his mantle on him.
20 And he left the oxen and ran after Elijah, and said, “Please let me kiss my father and my mother, and then I will follow you.”
And he said to him, “Go back again, for what have I done to you?”
21 So Elisha turned back from him, and took a yoke of oxen and slaughtered them and boiled their flesh, using the oxen’s equipment, and gave it to the people, and they ate. Then he arose and followed Elijah, and became his servant.

This chapter records the moment when God reassures Elijah that, despite the widespread apostasy in Israel, 7,000 people have remained faithful, refusing to worship Baal. It also marks the beginning of Elisha’s prophetic ministry as Elijah’s successor.

God is still in control despite the finger pointing.
J.

As Jesus took over from John the Baptist (Elijah). The remnant are being taught by the Lord. Yes He is in control, and He has led massive numbers of believers out of the churches in the last couple of decades or so. An exodus of sorts. It seems to be an indication that we are nearing the end. There is a point at which "ichabod" happens, sadly. And then what? Destruction and captivity (bondage). As Jerusalem (Babylon) is also an example we are to take warning from. "OUT of Egypt have I called my Son." "Come OUT of her my people lest you partake of her sins and receive of her plagues." Shouldn't we try to shine a light on what is happening in these days?

 

[Johann]

As Jesus took over from John the Baptist (Elijah). The remnant are being taught by the Lord. Yes He is in control, and He has led massive numbers of believers out of the churches in the last couple of decades or so. An exodus of sorts. It seems to be an indication that we are nearing the end. There is a point at which "ichabod" happens, sadly. And then what? Destruction and captivity (bondage). As Jerusalem (Babylon) is also an example we are to take warning from. "OUT of Egypt have I called my Son." "Come OUT of her my people lest you partake of her sins and receive of her plagues." Shouldn't we try to shine a light on what is happening in these days?

Depends what you mean led massive numbers of believers "out of churches" Shouldn't we try and promulgate the gospel, the good news of our crucified, resurrected Messiah, the cross, salvation, redemption, forgiveness, mercy and grace to a lost and dying world?
Muslims don't believe in a CRUCIFIED Messiah and here "we" [believers] want to go out-where?
We are not part of this world but very much rubbing shoulders WITH the world and yes, we are nearing the end but we DO have a mandate-to preach the gospel for IT is the dunamis of God to EVERYONE that believes, to the "whomsoever" Jew, Goyim and the BAR-im.
So yes, we DO shine a light- and hold out THE Light to a people still sitting in the region of darkness, even to believers who are dejected and believe they are not saved.

2 Timothy 2:19 (NKJV):

"Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: ‘The Lord knows those who are His,’ and, ‘Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.’"

God knows who are His-we don't!

Scripture references for @amigo de christo's sake

Matthew 4:16 (NKJV):

"The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, and upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death Light has dawned."

Isaiah 9:2 (NKJV):

"The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in the land of the shadow of death, upon them a light has shined."


The Bible does address the issue of false teachings and the need to separate from those who promote them, but it does not specifically instruct believers to leave all churches. Instead, it emphasizes the importance of discerning sound doctrine and maintaining faithfulness to the truth.

1. 2 Corinthians 6:14-17 (NKJV):

"Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: ‘I will dwell in them and walk among them. I will be their God, and they shall be My people.’ Therefore ‘Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, and I will receive you.’"

This passage encourages believers to avoid partnerships with those who do not share their faith, and to separate from practices that are contrary to God's commands. This can be applied to situations where a church or group promotes teachings or behaviors that are inconsistent with biblical truth.

2. Revelation 18:4 (NKJV):

"And I heard another voice from heaven saying, ‘Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.’"

In this context, the "her" refers to Babylon, symbolizing a corrupt system or entity. The call to come out is a call to avoid sharing in the corruption and judgment associated with it. While this is more symbolic, it reflects the broader principle of avoiding participation in evil practices.

3. 1 John 4:1 (NKJV):

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

John advises believers to test teachings and claims to ensure they align with God's truth, indicating the need for vigilance and discernment in all teachings, including those from churches.

4. Acts 20:28-30 (NKJV):

"Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves."

Paul warns the leaders of the church in Ephesus about the potential for false teachers to arise within the church, urging vigilance against such threats.

5. Titus 3:10-11 (NKJV):

"Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned."

Paul instructs Titus to reject individuals who cause divisions after they have been warned, indicating a need to separate from those who persist in promoting discord or false teachings.

Shalom and have a blessed day.
J.

 

[Lizbeth]

Muslims don't believe in a CRUCIFIED Messiah and here "we" [believers] want to go out-where?

Go to Jesus outside the camp bearing His reproach......where He was crucified and where we also die to ourselves. (aka wilderness)

but it does not specifically instruct believers to leave all churches.

I agree. It's not a specific instruction for every believer at every time in history. Every soul needs to hear from and be led by the Lord personally for His will and wisdom for every individual circumstance. But it happens that He HAS led many out of churches in recent times. And many have left because they could no longer in good conscience be part of (yoked with and supporting) what was going on in their churches.....it is the shepherds to blame for scattering the sheep.

When He led me out, at first I didn't understand why....I kept hanging around on the fringes of my old church for a while hoping and praying that things would change and get set to rights but they only got worse. At that point the Lord put His foot down urgently and I had to cut the cord and leave completely. Then I kept looking for a new church for quite a long time after that without success. Then the Lord finally began showing me in His word what He was doing and why. And that it was happening on a large scale. These do not seem to be "business as usual" times.

 

[Johann]

Go to Jesus outside the camp bearing His reproach......where He was crucified and where we also die to ourselves. (aka wilderness)

What DO you think I am doing @Lizbeth?

Go to Jesus outside the camp bearing His reproach......where He was crucified and where we also die to ourselves. (aka wilderness)


I agree. It's not a specific instruction for every believer at every time in history. Every soul needs to hear from and be led by the Lord personally for His will and wisdom for every individual circumstance. But it happens that He HAS led many out of churches in recent times. And many have left because they could no longer in good conscience be part of (yoked with and supporting) what was going on in their churches.....it is the shepherds to blame for scattering the sheep.

When He led me out, at first I didn't understand why....I kept hanging around on the fringes of my old church for a while hoping and praying that things would change and get set to rights but they only got worse. At that point the Lord put His foot down urgently and I had to cut the cord and leave completely. Then I kept looking for a new church for quite a long time after that without success. Then the Lord finally began showing me in His word what He was doing and why. And that it was happening on a large scale. These do not seem to be "business as usual" times.

I live a very reclusive style of life, not by choice-and I NEED godly counselors but not here, online, I'm afraid.
But I "hear" you.
J.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Amen. Churches have been too soft on sin for too long. Cross-less Christianity, offending no-one. Lost their saltiness. No fear of the Lord either. This makes them little more than social, psychology, philosophy and even political clubs. There's a need to toughen up some, like good soldiers of the cross....but that will only happen if people see where they are going wrong. And if by grace they do start to see, they tend to leave those worldly churches. You know brother, in one way, I believe Egypt and Sodom are types/allegories of erring "churches" that God calls His sheep out of, to go to Him outside the camp, those He rescues. And then what happened to Egypt and Sodom....after the righteous left, they got judged and it wasn't a pretty picture. (I think the allegory is spiritual death and destruction...dead and lifeless places.)

What churches do you all go to? I have never seen churches like this. I have seen the opposite

 

[Johann]

Go to Jesus outside the camp bearing His reproach......where He was crucified and where we also die to ourselves. (aka wilderness)

Heb_13:13

[Here the Hebrew writer presses his point!]

Therefore let us go forth to him outside the camp -- Let us go forth out of the city and camp of Judaism (Rev_11:8). Jesus, who was the ultimate atoning sacrifice, was similarly crucified outside the gates of Jerusalem (Joh_19:17). Figuratively, the Hebrew believers must join Him outside the camp of Judaism, no longer being a part of its unholy systems and practices (cf. 2Ti_2:4).

By extension, this would also depict the departure from the Levitical system. The uncommitted Hebrews needed to take the bold step of leaving that system and come outside the camp of old covenant Israel.

and bear the abuse he endured. -- Christ bore the shame and abuse of the crucifixion, and was "accursed of God" (Deu_21:22-23). The point the writer makes now, is "Let us ...bear the abuse he endured." And he calls on the believers to be ready to "take up their cross" and follow Jesus and whatever abuse it would bring to the Lord's followers.

Here there may be an allusion to Moses’ pitching “the tent of meeting” outside the camp and to the people’s going out to it (Exo_33:7). But in the case of Christians, there was a price to pay, that of sharing in the rejection he had undergone, “bearing the disgrace he bore.”

Heb_13:13 "So, let us go out to Him" This is a key verse in the book. It is a present middle (deponent) subjunctive, which speaks of continuous action and adds an element of contingency (this is the final admonition and warning against "shrinking back"). Believers need to publicly identify with Him and bear His reproach regardless of the consequences. This is the clear call for these "sheltered" synagogue believers to move into the full light of Great Commission Christianity (cf. Mat_28:19-20; Act_1:8).

This is the price we all SHOULD pay but sister-we can't take a verse here and there. . .

Messiah laid down 3 Imperatives in one verse-"deny self--take up your cross--and keep on following Me!"

I need fellowship-not here, not online.
J.

 

[Lizbeth]

What DO you think I am doing @Lizbeth?

I live a very reclusive style of life, not by choice-and I NEED godly counselors but not here, online, I'm afraid.
But I "hear" you.
J.

I wasn't referring to you personally...just answering your question which I took to be general.

Come to think of it though, it comes to mind that Abraham went out not knowing whither he was going.

 

[Johann]

I wasn't referring to you personally...just answering your question which I took to be general.

Come to think of it though, it comes to mind that Abraham went out not knowing whither he was going.

Do you hear the voice of God audibly?

 

[Lizbeth]

What churches do you all go to? I have never seen churches like this. I have seen the opposite

I can't speak for what you are seeing, but what I've seen here is not good. I wrote out a long list of the problems, but decided to delete it....too depressing. But I've never grown and learned so much and heard from the Lord so much since leaving the churches, so the Lord is turning it all around for my good, I'm not complaining. It's like when you are in dry desert territory your roots are forced down deeper to find water. And as though shutting out the clamour of other voices made it easier to hear God's still small voice.

 

[Lizbeth]

Do you hear the voice of God audibly?

No, only once maybe, not long after I was saved, but that was an "inner" audible small voice. A simple two word wise instruction to help me in a quandry....and it turned out perfectly.

 

[Johann]

No, only once maybe, not long after I was saved, but that was an "inner" audible small voice. A simple two word wise instruction to help me in a quandry....and it turned out perfectly.

Good, so why cite Avram?
I believe I have given you the context re Hebrews on "outside the camp"

J.

 

[Lizbeth]

Heb_13:13

[Here the Hebrew writer presses his point!]

Therefore let us go forth to him outside the camp -- Let us go forth out of the city and camp of Judaism (Rev_11:8). Jesus, who was the ultimate atoning sacrifice, was similarly crucified outside the gates of Jerusalem (Joh_19:17). Figuratively, the Hebrew believers must join Him outside the camp of Judaism, no longer being a part of its unholy systems and practices (cf. 2Ti_2:4).

By extension, this would also depict the departure from the Levitical system. The uncommitted Hebrews needed to take the bold step of leaving that system and come outside the camp of old covenant Israel.

and bear the abuse he endured. -- Christ bore the shame and abuse of the crucifixion, and was "accursed of God" (Deu_21:22-23). The point the writer makes now, is "Let us ...bear the abuse he endured." And he calls on the believers to be ready to "take up their cross" and follow Jesus and whatever abuse it would bring to the Lord's followers.

Here there may be an allusion to Moses’ pitching “the tent of meeting” outside the camp and to the people’s going out to it (Exo_33:7). But in the case of Christians, there was a price to pay, that of sharing in the rejection he had undergone, “bearing the disgrace he bore.”

Heb_13:13 "So, let us go out to Him" This is a key verse in the book. It is a present middle (deponent) subjunctive, which speaks of continuous action and adds an element of contingency (this is the final admonition and warning against "shrinking back"). Believers need to publicly identify with Him and bear His reproach regardless of the consequences. This is the clear call for these "sheltered" synagogue believers to move into the full light of Great Commission Christianity (cf. Mat_28:19-20; Act_1:8).

This is the price we all SHOULD pay but sister-we can't take a verse here and there. . .

Messiah laid down 3 Imperatives in one verse-"deny self--take up your cross--and keep on following Me!"

I need fellowship-not here, not online.
J.

Jesus was numbered with the transgressors.......that is his reproach and what we bear when we are suffering the chastisements that He allows in His wisdom, because He loves us as sons. Our lives can be hard to explain and people make assumptions and reproach us for this or that when all we're doing is obeying and following the Lord whether it seems to make sense from man's point of view or not. Or when the Lord is allowing the devil to sift us and we find ourselves in a crucible being refined.

 

[Lizbeth]

Good, so why cite Avram?
I believe I have given you the context re Hebrews on "outside the camp"

J.

I find it encouraging to consider the saints who went before us. Like Abraham we don't always see or know the end result and why God is leading us through what He is. So we do not lose faith.

 

[Johann]

Jesus was numbered with the transgressors.......that is his reproach and what we bear when we are suffering the chastisements that He allows in His wisdom, because He loves us as sons. Our lives can be hard to explain and people make assumptions and reproach us for this or that when all we're doing is obeying and following the Lord whether it seems to make sense from man's point of view or not. Or when the Lord is allowing the devil to sift us and we find ourselves in a crucible being refined.

Yes, hard to explain when we take a verse here and there and "sandwich" it together sister, no offense.
Jesus was numbered with the transgressors

Isaiah 53:12 (NKJV): "And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors."

Luke 22:37 (NKJV): "For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end."
His reproach and what we bear when we suffer

Hebrews 13:13 (NKJV): "Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach."
Chastisements that He allows because He loves us as sons

Hebrews 12:6 (NKJV): "For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives."
Proverbs 3:11-12 (NKJV): "My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor detest His correction; For whom the Lord loves He corrects, Just as a father the son in whom he delights."
People reproach us when we are obeying the Lord

1 Peter 4:14 (NKJV): "If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you."
The Lord allows the devil to sift us

Luke 22:31 (NKJV): "And the Lord said, 'Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat.'"


Malachi 3:3 (NKJV): "He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the Lord an offering in righteousness."

1 Peter 1:6-7 (NKJV): "In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Thanks.
J.

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes, hard to explain when we take a verse here and there and "sandwich" it together sister, no offense.
Jesus was numbered with the transgressors

Isaiah 53:12 (NKJV): "And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors."

Luke 22:37 (NKJV): "For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end."
His reproach and what we bear when we suffer

Hebrews 13:13 (NKJV): "Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach."
Chastisements that He allows because He loves us as sons

Hebrews 12:6 (NKJV): "For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives."
Proverbs 3:11-12 (NKJV): "My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor detest His correction; For whom the Lord loves He corrects, Just as a father the son in whom he delights."
People reproach us when we are obeying the Lord

1 Peter 4:14 (NKJV): "If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you."
The Lord allows the devil to sift us

Luke 22:31 (NKJV): "And the Lord said, 'Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat.'"


Malachi 3:3 (NKJV): "He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the Lord an offering in righteousness."

1 Peter 1:6-7 (NKJV): "In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Thanks.
J.

I don't understand your point......don't think I said anything that contradicts what you posted. Think you misunderstood what I meant by hard to explain. Hard to explain to unbelievers, as well as even many who claim Christ and think He promised us a rose garden in this life.

 

[Rockerduck]

Amen. Churches have been too soft on sin for too long. Cross-less Christianity, offending no-one. Lost their saltiness. No fear of the Lord either. This makes them little more than social, psychology, philosophy and even political clubs. There's a need to toughen up some, like good soldiers of the cross....but that will only happen if people see where they are going wrong. And if by grace they do start to see, they tend to leave those worldly churches. You know brother, in one way, I believe Egypt and Sodom are types/allegories of erring "churches" that God calls His sheep out of, to go to Him outside the camp, those He rescues. And then what happened to Egypt and Sodom....after the righteous left, they got judged and it wasn't a pretty picture. (I think the allegory is spiritual death and destruction...dead and lifeless places.)

Our generation has had our conscience 'seared"(1 Tim 4:2) since early childhood. Back before the 1800's the bible was clear, no witchcraft. (Exodus 22:18, Lev. 19:26, and Lev. 20:27). Everyone knew this for centuries. But we had TV and Cinderella - witchcraft, Snow White- witchcraft, Sorcerer's on many shows in movies with witchcraft. We got used to it. TV shows "Bewitched", "I dream of Jeanie" all magic and we accepted it. How many bedroom scenes have we watched early, like in the James bond movies, we got used to it. It's no wonder that this has crept in the churches and many Christians' having their conscience seared and not realizing this, accept things in church that would have never been there before.

 

[Johann]

I don't understand your point......don't think I said anything that contradicts what you posted.

Never mind and no worries.
I think we have a communication and cultural problem and the manner in which we work with the Scriptures.
J.

 

[Wynona]

Pauls highest ethic was perfection. Aim for perfection.
Our problem is not that it is not achievable, is the instant emotional condemnation of our struggles and failures popup
straight away. What we do not see is that is the prison bars exerting themselves from our past behaviour and family
patterns and bad experiences that we still carry. But it is something we can work on.

Wow, yes! Thank you!

Perfection is still the goal for us.

 

[WalkInLight]

What churches do you all go to? I have never seen churches like this. I have seen the opposite

This made me think of a phrase I heard from a senior church leader. I preach the truth, truth is what matters.

It made me laugh because they supported the prosperity gospel and Benny Hinn, being a major promotor of Hinn's
work in the UK. As a long documentary and analysis of Hinn's ministry found he is simply a con-man playing on peoples
needs for a real healing in serious life threatening situations, but playing it like a showman without consideration
for the needs of the people or what actually is causing pain and suffering but using it to make a show.

This leader when challenged about this support, the phrase was "You are a heart beat away from the Lord."
I left this alone, but I believe the implication was me questioning the veracity of Hinn's ministry and the support
provided brought judgement upon me. It is this kind of insanity and worship of wealth over love and care which
damages peoples lives and is sinful.

When is a rotten tree cut down or can it become a good tree? I think the addiction to lying and money corrupts
everything, and declaring repentance while continuing the same behaviour declares out loud a doomed soul.
And leaders using spiritual judgement threats, is the kind of behaviour dictators use to silence people exposing
abuse, and they silence insecure and unsure believers who do not want to declare Gods love and care shown in
all His work. Yes we desire the Lord to heal people is desperate situations, but He wants healing of the soul eternally,
while we often like the 10 lepers want an easy physical fix, ignoring the spiritual truth that is behind it.

God bless you