Romans 11:25 - Partially blinded

[Spiritual Israelite]

How are you determining who is currently considered Israel? What identifying characteristics make them Israel to God?



1. Their DNA
2. Their religion
3. Their culture
4. Their domicile
5. Their faithfulness and obedience, or lack thereof, to God and His Son
6. Something else

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

I'd say option #1 because Paul described himself as an Israelite on the basis that he physically descended from Abraham and the tribe of Benjamin.

 

[covenantee]

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

I'd say option #1 because Paul described himself as an Israelite on the basis that he physically descended from Abraham and the tribe of Benjamin.

I'd say #5, because faithfulness and obedience are God's sole and exclusive criteria for identifying who are "special", i.e. elect, to Him.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here’s what seems to be kinda off kilter here. If Paul meant Israel will always and forever be blind in part then why even say “that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in”?

Why not? God initiated a process back then in Paul's day where He wanted the salvation of the Gentiles to provoke blinded Israelites to jealousy so that they too would want to be saved. You can see that in what Paul said here:

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Why would this process that was already in place in Paul's day of saved Gentiles provoking unsaved Israelites to jealousy ever stop until the time when no one else would be saved?

You have ethnic Israel remaining an entity up until the end of time and this ethnic Israel is blind in part forever, their status never changes. Ultimately they are no different than Gentiles, yet Paul does differentiate between the two groups. Saying the Gentiles will be blind in part until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in would be just as valid a statement, but just as uninformative and meaningless.

You're the one making Israel being blinded in part uninformative and meaningless, but Paul didn't. The meaning behind it is described by Paul in Romans 11:11-30. Israel was blinded in part in order for salvation to come to the Gentiles who, in turn, provoke the Israelites to jealousy so that they too would want to be saved like the Gentiles were.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'd say #5, because faithfulness and obedience are God's sole and exclusive criteria for identifying who are "special", i.e. elect, to Him.

I think you missed what he was asking. Unless I did. I believe the context of his question was in relation to who the Israel is now that is still blinded in part since that is what I was talking about in the post he responded to. That Israel is determined based on DNA. Of course, you know that I know that the Israel of God (Spiritual Israel) is based on #5.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How are you determining who is currently considered Israel? What identifying characteristics make them Israel to God?



1. Their DNA
2. Their religion
3. Their culture
4. Their domicile
5. Their faithfulness and obedience, or lack thereof, to God and His Son
6. Something else

Can you explain exactly what you meant by this question, keeping in mind that there are two Israels (Romans 9:6-8). Which Israel are you talking about? I assumed you were talking about the Israel that is blinded in part because that is what was being discussed.

 

[covenantee]

I think you missed what he was asking. Unless I did. I believe the context of his question was in relation to who the Israel is now that is still blinded in part since that is what I was talking about in the post he responded to. That Israel is determined based on DNA. Of course, you know that I know that the Israel of God (Spiritual Israel) is based on #5.

I concur; I should have checked previous posts to ascertain the context. However, note that those blinded would also include proselyte Gentiles, who were part of Israel from its beginning and throughout its history.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I concur; I should have checked previous posts to ascertain the context. However, note that those blinded would also include proselyte Gentiles, who were part of Israel from its beginning and throughout its history.

Agree.

 

[grafted branch]

What do you mean "once the blindness in part is lifted"? The blindness in part is never fully lifted, but the blindness of individuals is lifted when they repent and put their faith in Christ. Look at the following passage:

Paul says the blindness in part has happened until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

The word until means up to or as far as. The condition of partial blindness happens up to or as far as the fullness of the Gentiles. The partial blindness doesn’t happen past that point.

The blindness in part refers to the fact that there was a saved remnant of Israelite believers while "the rest were blinded".

How can the mystery of Romans 11:25 be talking about partial blindness as a fraction of the people being spiritually blind and a fraction of the people not being spiritually blind? A mystery is something hidden in the Old Testament and revealed in the New Testament. Are you suggesting that it was not understood that some Israelites weren’t saved until Paul revealed this mystery to us?

Why would this process that was already in place in Paul's day of saved Gentiles provoking unsaved Israelites to jealousy ever stop until the time when no one else would be saved?

Because it was meant to provoke those who kept the burden of the old covenant into an understanding that under the new covenant those burdens were unnecessary.

After the cross the burden of the old covenant was still being observed by the Jews, while the Gentiles had a different burden, this seemed good to the Holy Spirit in Acts 15:28. In Hebrews 8:13 the old covenant was ready to vanish away and in 2 Corinthians 3:14 it is the reading of the old covenant that is the vail on their hearts. Once that old covenant vanished that vail vanished.

Someone today can believe in the old covenant and reject the new covenant but that is not the vail, the old covenant has vanished. In the first century someone could have the Holy Spirit and hear the reading of the old covenant and conclude it was good, that temporary situation ended when the old covenant vanished.

Let’s face it, no church today asks if you’re a Jew or Gentile in order to determine which burden should be placed on that individual. The temporary blindness on Israel has ended, there is no difference between ethnic Israel and Gentile since that old covenant vanished.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul says the blindness in part has happened until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Exactly.

The word until means up to or as far as.

Yep.

The condition of partial blindness happens up to or as far as the fullness of the Gentiles. The partial blindness doesn’t happen past that point.

Agree.

How can the mystery of Romans 11:25 be talking about partial blindness as a fraction of the people being spiritually blind and a fraction of the people not being spiritually blind?

How can it not? Are you looking for context? Please read this:

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

So, the "remnant according to the election of grace" was not blinded "and the rest were blinded". So, it's obvious to me that Israel being blinded in part refers to the fact that some, but not all, of the Israelites were blinded.

A mystery is something hidden in the Old Testament and revealed in the New Testament.

Not necessarily. It can be, such as in the case of the fact that Gentile believers are fellowheirs with Israelite believers of God's promises (Eph 3:1-6), but that doesn't have to be the case.

Are you suggesting that it was not understood that some Israelites weren’t saved until Paul revealed this mystery to us?

LOL. Of course not. The mystery is simply that the partial blindness status of Israel would continue until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, which was not previously revealed until Paul revealed it.

Because it was meant to provoke those who kept the burden of the old covenant into an understanding that under the new covenant those burdens were unnecessary.

After the cross the burden of the old covenant was still being observed by the Jews, while the Gentiles had a different burden, this seemed good to the Holy Spirit in Acts 15:28.

No, it wasn't. Just read Galatians 3 to see if God still wanted people to keep the old covenant law. He did not. But, I'm not going to argue with you about this again. Let's stay on topic with Romans 11. I don't believe what you're talking about has anything to do with Romans 11.

In Hebrews 8:13 the old covenant was ready to vanish away

Not the old covenant itself. It was already obsolete. You either accept that it was obsolete at that point or not. What's your decision? If you agree with the verse saying that it was obsolete at that point, then you need to figure out what the difference is between it being obsolete and it vanishing away. It seems that you do not differentiate between those things for some reason.

and in 2 Corinthians 3:14 it is the reading of the old covenant that is the vail on their hearts. Once that old covenant vanished that vail vanished.

Someone today can believe in the old covenant and reject the new covenant but that is not the vail, the old covenant has vanished. In the first century someone could have the Holy Spirit and hear the reading of the old covenant and conclude it was good, that temporary situation ended when the old covenant vanished.

Let’s face it, no church today asks if you’re a Jew or Gentile in order to determine which burden should be placed on that individual. The temporary blindness on Israel has ended, there is no difference between ethnic Israel and Gentile since that old covenant vanished.

I think you are taking Romans 11 completely out of context and it has nothing to do with what you're talking about. How did the fullness of the Gentiles already come in long ago? That makes no sense. What does "the fullness of the Gentiles" mean to you? To me, it's talking about the point at which every Gentile who will be saved has been saved. The process God began long ago of the Gentiles provoking Israelites to jealousy and leading them to salvation will continue until the last Gentile has been saved.

 

[grafted branch]

What does "the fullness of the Gentiles" mean to you?

The fullness of the Gentiles has to do with them fulfilling all the scriptures that are prophesied for them. It has nothing to do with the total number of saved people.

 

[WPM]

A mystery is something hidden in the Old Testament and revealed in the New Testament.

Where did you find this definition of mystery? Just curious!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The fullness of the Gentiles has to do with them fulfilling all the scriptures that are prophesied for them. It has nothing to do with the total number of saved people.

We'll have to agree to disagree then. It's clear to me that you are missing the context of Romans 11. So be it.

 

[grafted branch]

Where did you find this definition of mystery? Just curious!

Well take Ephesians 3:9 for example

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Here mystery is something that was hid from the beginning.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well take Ephesians 3:9 for example

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Here mystery is something that was hid from the beginning.

So, that one example means a mystery in scripture always has to be understood in that context?

 

[ScottA]

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

There maybe a few different interpretations regarding the above verse in Romans. Personally, I do not feel I have a very good understanding of this verse and would like to learn what others believe it is telling us.

God, by the creation of Time and this world, has divided His eternity into the lives of many generations, that all who are His would be saved from His condemnation of sins. Partial blindness simply (and brilliantly) allows each generation equal opportunity regarding the choice between life and death, blessing and cursing, that He has set before us all. In other words, if greater sight and knowledge had come earlier in history, these more recent generations would have been cut out of their opportunity of choosing eternal life. Each generation of Israel, and also the gentiles--including those of the church age, have equally suffered a partial blindness for the sake of all.

Incidentally, that window of opportunity is now coming to a close. Our ship has come in, the finish is upon us. Then comes the end.

 

[WPM]

Well take Ephesians 3:9 for example

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Here mystery is something that was hid from the beginning.

That was one example. That does not insinuate that every mystery "is something hidden in the Old Testament and revealed in the New Testament." That is a complete stretch! That is not taught anywhere in the Bible.

 

[grafted branch]

So, that one example means a mystery in scripture always has to be understood in that context?

So why do you think it was a mystery that some Jews were saved and some weren’t? Shouldn’t it have been obvious that that was the case?

 

[WPM]

So why do you think it was a mystery that some Jews were saved and some weren’t? Shouldn’t it have been obvious that that was the case?

No. Not at all. Quite the opposite. Many thought salvation was by Israeli birthright. They were deceived. They were blind. That is what this is teaching. They did not get it. But not all Israel were/are blind. Sadly, the majority were/are, as in most nations. But part of Israel were/are elect. Part of Israel were/are the remnant according to election. Part of Israel were/are enlightened.

 

[grafted branch]

No. Not at all. Quite the opposite. Many thought salvation was by Israeli race. They were deceived. They were blind. That is what this is teaching. They did not get it. They were deceived. But not all are blinded . Only the majority. Part are elect. Part are the remnant according to election.

But that’s not what SI was talking about, he said the mystery was a fraction of Jews were saved and the other fraction were not saved, they were blinded.

 

[WPM]

But that’s not what SI was talking about, he said the mystery was a fraction of Jews were saved and the other fraction were not saved, they were blinded.

• To arrive at the ‘corporate position’ one has to totally ignore Paul’s overriding message of two types of Israeli in Romans 9–11 (and in the whole book of Romans). Throughout, he is constantly differentiating between Israelis that are blind and Israelis that are elect.
• One also has to ignore the whole context and setting of Paul’s comments “all Israel shall be saved.” He uses the phrase immediately after demonstrating that the elect Israeli good olive only holds those Jews that are of the household of “faith.”
• As Paul expands his argument on the salvation of his own kinsmen, and tells us that all Israel shall be saved, he does it within the vital context of a faithful believing remnant of Israelis. Many fail to see that Paul has already established that the believing element within the overall physical nation of Israel is “a remnant.”
• Some also seem to overlook Paul’s supporting evidence from the Old Testament Scripture (in Isaiah 59:20) that shows that the people in view are a spiritual segment of the overall whole who put their faith in Christ and repent of their sin.