1. Jesus uses the example of an unjust judge to say "HOW MUCH MORE will the Just Judge do justice?"
2. Jesus says "So my Heavenly Father will do to you"--I accept it just as I read it, as you say. I hope you will, too.
Oddly OSAS
- Thread starter GracePeace
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
2. Jesus says "So my Heavenly Father will do to you"--I accept it just as I read it, as you say. I hope you will, too.
And? How does that have anything to do with the reality that God will rescind forgiveness from those who do not forgive--and that, since being forgiven is by faith, this means the removal of their faith?
This reminds me of,
It sounds like you’re referring to the Parable of the Lost Sheep from the Bible. This parable is found in both Matthew 18:12-14 and Luke 15:1-7. It tells the story of a shepherd who leaves his 99 sheep to find the one that is lost. When he finds it, he rejoices more over that one sheep than over the 99 that did not wander away
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
If those whom John was speaking about were "never saved" then the most the verse teaches us is that never saved people were never saved, the verse does not in anyway claim that a person who is saved cannot fall away. For a few verses later John writes:
"Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father."
If OSAS were true then verse 24 here is false and not true. Why the need for admonishments and warnings (vs 15-17) and the conditional word "if" if falling away is impossible????
Secondly, what John says here refers specifically to those antichrists he was talking about, a universal application cannot be made for there have been those who were saved but fell away, 2 Peter chapter 2; Heb 10:26-31.
Also, there were false teachers at Jerusalem were falsely taught the Gentiles could not be saved unless they were circumcised, Acts 15:1. The Apostles had a meeting and determined such an idea is false. We later learn from James (v24) about where these "false teachers" came from......." Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:" Those that went out with the false teaching were brethren of the church at Jerusalem, gone out from the Aposltes and who had no authority to teach such a view. So it is possible for a person to go out from us, become a false teacher, not abide in the word they had heard (1 Jn 2:24) and become lost.
Those who irretrievably fall away (there are degrees--Heb 6 says they cannot be retrieved, but Paul sought to restore the Galatians), God forgets their faith counted as righteousness, which, effectively, results in the categorization of them as "never believed--never saved", all the while, the promises that God will keep us remain for those saved by grace through faith (because those who fall away never had faith).
Hello sir, that really make a lot of sense considering there had to be a once was, then renouncment in time period, I mean some people are choosing against God, even knowing the outcome of the lake of fire for instance.
Can antichrists still exist today? Sure, of course you know in the spirit of once was. However, there throughout the period of their life, they could have chosen not to go that way, but because of their blindness they were predestined to destruction (the lake of fire - restoration in my opinion), while the other was predestined for Life, (being in the kingdom where Light gives light and God is the there giving life and the Lamb.) Darkness leads to destruction, that destruction is of the soul, the killing or death of the (mind/will/emotions) of a person (though the person will be given the ability to choose to perhaps go to the lake of fire where the Lamb and his angels dwell, and perhaps the little what left of that person becomes renewed, somehow to get into the Kingdom, and accept Yeshua, during that (second death) the dying to the self will. Some people may stay outside of the gates because they choose to, and some people may walk out of the kingdom because they choose to in my opinion and perspective.
So it's either Faith, hope and love.
Or it's knowledge, good, evil.
Kingdom where there is light,
Outside where the is a bit more darkness, maybe it gets gray in some areas before it dips off deep into the darkness.
Remember God separated the light from the darkness.
Love God first, and love your neighbor as yourself.
I remember learning about the "antichrists" a little before as well because in that time period Christians started to become persecuted even by their own family and friends, similar to today's life to some degree out there.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Those in Heb 6 that fall away, it says of them "seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
The present tense of the verbs 'crucify' and 'put' show they did not simply fall away and nothing more but they fell away and CONTINUED to crucify Christ and put Christ to shame. Christ is the reason one repents but if one CONTINUES to crucify and put to shame the REASON (CHRIST) that one repents then repentance would be impossible. Yet if one quits CONTINUING his crucifying and putting Christ to shame he can then come to repentance. Acts 8, Simon did not continue in his sin against the Holy Spirit but was able to repent.
Also, the book of Hebrews is filled with warnings and admonishments to those converted Jews about falling away, going back to the OT leaving the NT and the only possible way to be saved. They were warned about drifting away, Heb 2; departing from God in unbelief, Heb 3; falling short of that rest, Heb 4 all of which is needless and unnecessary if falling way were impossible. They had not matured as Christians as they should Heb 5 and were full of hearing. They were true, genuine Christians Heb 6:4-5. They were warned about falling into a state where they would CONTINUE to crucify and put to shame Christ then repentance would be impossible.....
"Both of the expressions “crucify” and “put him to open shame” are present tense participles. In Greek, the present tense has more to do with the type of action, rather than time (the latter being secondary). The present tense represents an action that is in progress, and generally, one that is sustained (see Wallace, 518).
The “crucifying” and “putting to open shame,” therefore, represent on-going actions on the part of apostates.
It is also important to note that present participles normally express action that is contemporary with that of the main verb of the sentence (Wallace, 625), which, in this case is “renew.”
In other words, “while they continue to crucify,” “as long as they are crucifying,” etc., the Son of God, they cannot be brought to repentance.
Why is this the case? Because Christ is the motive for repentance! How could one possibly repent of falling away from the Christian faith, if he believes that the crucifixion of Jesus was a just sentence upon a false Messiah?
As F. F. Bruce expressed it: “Those who repudiate the salvation procured by Christ will find none anywhere else” (149).
And so, it is not the case that Jewish Christians who abandon the faith cannot ever be saved. The tragic reality is this. They cannot be saved if they drift into a state of unbelief and remain that way!"
Are Apostates from the Faith beyond Repentance?
The writer of Hebrews speaks of those who are beyond the possibility of repentance (Heb. 6:6). Does this mean that if a Christian falls away from the faith, he can never return? Is it even possible for the child of God to apostatize -so as to be lost? This week's Q&A segment addresses this issue.
christiancourier.com
How ever you want to read Heb 6, the point is that those who fall away (I think you're NOSAS right?) are accounted as having never believed, never having been saved... therefore, the saved are kept and never lose salvation, "if they were of us they would have continued with us", because God keeps us.
In both name and reality--those who fall away were never saved, and the saved remain saved forever!
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Hi,
Anyone who rejects Christ has the spirit of antichrist. So there are many antichrists today as it was back then at the time of John.
I do not see those who are antichrist as being predetermined against their will to be that way, they choose to be that way.
"They would have 'continued' (or abideth) with us" continuing is a matter of freewill, 2 Tim 2:12.....
1 Jn 2:24
Let that therefore abide (continue) in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
One has free will to choose to let the word of God abide/continue in them or not.
Right, and by this you mean that they were saved, but they fell away, so they changed from "saved" to "never were saved". This is like Orwellian "doublethink". This is a linguistic obfuscation. You believe the saved can in fact become unsaved, into a fictional "never were saved" status.
Much love!
You know what they say :
Psalm 139:12Darkness and light are alike
The saved cannot become unsaved, because those who are dismissed were never saved.
I just believe what I read!
Try the full quote. This is an amazing Psalm, I hate to see you misuse it.
Much love!
You could try complete sentences if not the full paragraph. I don't see this as a serious discussion any longer.
Much love!
1. That's kinda arbitrary.
2. Anyway, the saved are always saved, because the ones who fall away were never saved!