Agree with this in principle brother. It's become a "career" for many. Love of money and seeking a life for oneself in this world. Cake and eat it too. I understand the temptation. Cares of life, especially for those with spouses and children to bring up, as Paul said would be the case.
Leaders That Don't Support Good Works or Overcoming Sin
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Of course I don't mind....feel free to take a break and get refreshed. Think we all need to do that anyhow from time to time, I know I do.
Yetzer Ha-Tov -Yetzer Ha-Ra
Which one do you feed the most-that's the question.
Shalom
J.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Take the log out.. is what the word says.
and getting along side and trying to help one who is sinning. is not the same as saying one loves sin.. Try to keep up
Saying one loves sin when they do not. is sin itself.
again, remove the log.. Thats what I say. Judge not lest ye be judged
15 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.
16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Matt 18:15-17
Jesus says we need to not be hypocrites when we judge, not that we should not judge.
Sin is literally doing damage and hurt up to killing someone. If you say no sin should be repented of or
resolved, you have become an unbeliever and stands under Gods judgement as a sinner.
The path of righteousness is the path of life through out scripture.
The arguement of the fallen is we are all fallen and hopeless so stop pointing it out.
This is the road of hatred, bitterness and revenge, not life, love and freedom.
Sadly only the forgiven and righteous know this reality of light in the darkness.
And the fact believers claim to be following a bitter filled gospel with no victory is why
things fall apart.
God bless you
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Well yes. If your trying to save yourself. you will never find victory
If you think you are righteous and have arrived. You will have no victory.
Paul ran the race until the day he died. He never gave up. because he realized he was a work in progress..
Paul knew of nothing against himself...his conscience was clear....he was not sinning any outward sins. However in spite of not considering that he had "arrived" he was still an apostle who was a spiritual leader in the churches and wrote all the letters that he wrote. And there was some pretty plain language in those letters in many places that no doubt ruffled feathers.......as we also see by his letters that he was often opposed.
Can you please help me to understand.....is this really a conversation about mercy and grace versus condemnation? Is that what this is about? I wanted to try to get at the crux of the controversy here, because it wasn't clear to me what is was. I was just seeing vague insinuations and accusations spoken in vitriol. Wanted to get at the problem to see if we could try and resolve it for all our sakes, but was brushed off earlier. "The wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God."
It is telling that those who often talk about a log, never take it out.
Often peoples sinful behaviour is a symptom of something more complex, unresolved hurt and anger, claims of
things being unfair, anger issues. What is missed is repentance of sinful actions is the first step of challenging
the driving forces below. Jesus is talking about taking a life for adultery with the woman caught in adultery,
but not saying the sinful action is fine, because everyone is doing it.
I would say 100% folk condemning righteous judgement have too many logs in their lives that blind them to
the power of love and a clean heart. It is when you repent and start to sort things through you realise repentance
is the key, and accepting Christs forgiveness, and how we truly in our hearts want to love and be at peace with
others. It is only hurt and pain that makes us turn evil, join the world and its deeds, rather than walk away and
walk with Jesus.
Our emotions bind us, a web of justified positions that make us socially acceptable. But without love and seeing
the emptiness of pretending rather than being real and challenging others over their behaviour driven by show
and not true intent or feeling.
I had an interaction with someone where they habitually wrote people off if they contradicted them, or did not
respond in their expected way. The other person became an enemy over everything they expressed. This was
new to me, but I suddenly realised it was an emotional trap, of good and bad people, black and white, without
any justification. They rationalised excuses, but it was obvious it was their life approach. And being on the
receiving end hurt. But when you step back a realise the prison this person created, it was nothing personal or
real. Sin does that to you.
Jesus said do not resist the evil person. He is pointing out they are in a trap of their own making. They have no
clue they are the victim and out of control, a slave to their delusions and paranoia. When Jesus sets you free, you
begin to see this insanity, pain and suffering, the loneliness and lostness, where no one can ever get too close
because you will eat them up. I know because I used to be that person, and not know why.
God bless you
Hunting for the enemy or being a light in a dark place
Some believe the power of the gospel is diluted by wrong doctrine, by the enemy sowing weeds in the field.
Jesus was very clear. The weeds will grow, but His people will prosper, and weeding will harm them so He
will let it be. But why?
Because Jesus changes hearts through His words and intentions working through them.
Jesus came and sat beside me. The King of Kings said He loved me and cared and intended to teach and look
after me. Wow. I mean, the most powerful being in the universe cared that much to find me and save me.
And this is not just theology, this is life, emotional, conceptual, root and branch transformation over time.
This is not perfect spirit, lost flesh, this is light in a dark place straightening everything out. And yes it is
scary, hard to feel and be objective about, because you become a different person, an eternal child of God.
Jesus says He knows us, His sheep and we follow Him.
Again the power in those words and promise makes me cry in joy.
Odd combination of faith and realisation. But as I get older and realise I am closer to dying than
living here on earth, it is actually more real and there. As cancer issues arise, and health limitations
come, I rejoice that I am going to meet Him face to face.
Those who do not know this, will condemn me, want to undermine these words, call me a fake hypocrite.
But that is their trap and their prison talking, because I do not have those bars or bound by these emotional
rules. Yes I do have more to do, and yes it is not complete, but I await Jesus to show the way, the next step.
God bless you all
Some believe the power of the gospel is diluted by wrong doctrine, by the enemy sowing weeds in the field.
Jesus was very clear. The weeds will grow, but His people will prosper, and weeding will harm them so He
will let it be. But why?
Because Jesus changes hearts through His words and intentions working through them.
Jesus came and sat beside me. The King of Kings said He loved me and cared and intended to teach and look
after me. Wow. I mean, the most powerful being in the universe cared that much to find me and save me.
And this is not just theology, this is life, emotional, conceptual, root and branch transformation over time.
This is not perfect spirit, lost flesh, this is light in a dark place straightening everything out. And yes it is
scary, hard to feel and be objective about, because you become a different person, an eternal child of God.
Jesus says He knows us, His sheep and we follow Him.
Again the power in those words and promise makes me cry in joy.
Odd combination of faith and realisation. But as I get older and realise I am closer to dying than
living here on earth, it is actually more real and there. As cancer issues arise, and health limitations
come, I rejoice that I am going to meet Him face to face.
Those who do not know this, will condemn me, want to undermine these words, call me a fake hypocrite.
But that is their trap and their prison talking, because I do not have those bars or bound by these emotional
rules. Yes I do have more to do, and yes it is not complete, but I await Jesus to show the way, the next step.
God bless you all
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
We can’t forget Roman’s 7. Paul had his besetting sins. Many believe his thorn in the flesh was to keep Paul humble because of this sin
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Actually it was a conversation I was having with another member. He was speaking of those who he claimed loved and accepted sin so I asked him what he meant by that statement since I get accused of this by many people and hear this accusation thrown at others because of what they believe. And I know none of us love and accept sin
That is the context I am using. @WalkInLight stepped in the middle of that conversation and I am trying to keep that conversation in context
So when people start accusing others. I say take the log out
Especially if I feel they are falsly accusing others
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Oh I take it out. I know I am not perfect. So I won’t judge another person. Now I will come along side them and help them and hope they help Me. But judgement belongs to God
I am more worried about those who think they have no sin and think they have arrived
Again Paul never arrived. Who am I to think I am greater than Paul
I do not know if any believer in God who thinks adultry is ok. So this is a nonsensical comment. But even if they did. The issue is not adultry. You don’t put them under law. The law can not help them. Only grace can. And teaching them to love as Christ loved the church.
Well you would be 110% in error. I grew up in a church teaching as you do. I never saw victory. I saw people walk away in droves. Because instead of showing live they were condemned. And the people condemning had their own sins which made they hypocrites
I would say repenting is part of accepting his forgiveness. If you still put yourself under law. You have not yet repented. Now accepted christs forgiveness
Here I agree. But here is the powers. We love because Christ loved us.
The first part I agree. The second part contradicts the first part
I do not need to challenge others that have love. I just become like a disciple or a leader to them. And walk along side them as Jesus did
That’s what legalism does to you. That’s what fear does. You fear you may be wrong so you make a defense. Those who are confident would never do this
Jesus said to love them as he loved the world. You can not help a person overcome sin until you help them get saved. Then and only then can they find healing
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"You fear you may be wrong so you make a defense."
It is always a possibility. What I have learnt is our emotions exist, but we have to explore the why.
Sometimes the answer is actually stepping outside the situation and noting the reaction we all have one with another.
To empathise we try and feel what another is feeling. We try to create a response which will lead to peace and connection.
But I know unfortunately a shut door in someone else is just that. No amount of me trying to connect will help, because
until the door is opened from within I am outside. Jesus said the same thing about us and Him. Until we open the door
and become vulnerable, all His love is wasted and we are lost.
Love is a strange thing, it always hopes, always perservers, always trys. But Jesus pointed out those who are out to create
antagonism should just be loved and accepted. Because there is nothing else one can do.
I had a relative who broke my heart. He lived in his own world of lack of self worth and paranoia. He tried to destroy me
in the most personal way because he got upset. He wanted to burn whatever relationship bridges we had. It hurt deeply
because I could not resolve this with my good intent, because with the time involved it could too easily be turned into
something that appeared bad. All I can do was wait.
Life is this balance, to functioning emotional people need to be able to communicate meaningfully.
If a house is burning down, there is no point saying no one believes flames do not do damage.
Clearly the need is to put the fire out. Believing in Jesus is believing He will put the fire out and heal us.
"That’s what legalism does to you."
I do not use labels. I know what Jesus helps us through, and thats all I really care about.
My biggest challenge is to grasp how to be open, encouraging and know forgiving and being forgiven.
I see these principles are core to the gospel and how the apostles walked with Jesus and it is our calling.
God bless you
Has to be talking (in a representative way) about the struggle of saved persons, because Paul refers to delighting in the Law after the inner man....and also unsaved persons can't learn to walk in the spirit to be delivered from "this body of death." But we resemble people under the Law in that we may still struggle with our flesh and are learning/being instructed and convicted by the Law....in that way we're being tutored to Christ, to seek His help in overcoming sin and learning to walk in His Spirit.
Many in the church do accept sin in the name of "tolerance" and political correctness etc I'm afraid. But I was thinking mainly about a bit earlier in the conversation with the apparent controversy Johann was having with Amigo.
I believe Utley would agree with you-
There have been four major theories about how to interpret Romans 7 (see Contextual Insights for Rom. 7:7-25)
Paul is speaking of himself (autobiographical)
Paul is speaking as a representative of all mankind (representative)
Paul is speaking of Adam's experience (Theodore of Mopsuetia)
Paul is speaking of Israel's experience.
Shalom.
J.
Pretty sure Paul was identifying with the struggle of believers in general.........then he shared what he had cottoned on to about walking in the spirit which ended the struggle.
No need to speculate about the thorn in the flesh....he stated what it was for.....not because of existing sin but to prevent a particular sin.
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