What affect is there on The Fall and The Atonement, if Adam was not the first human?

[Johann]

I'd challenge the lot of that evidence as actually proving the flood, for the most part. For me, the issue is, Is the Bible to be trusted. Did God in fact create heaven and earth and all that is in them in 6 days, the same kind of days as the Sabbath Rest day, like the Bible says? In 6 days . . . so rest on the 7th day. Or not? If not, we are certainly left to wonder, what is real, and what is parable? Figurative? Illustrative? Just flowery speech?

Much love!

"day" The Hebrew term yom (BDB 398) can refer to a period of time (cf. Gen. 2:4; 5:2; Ruth 1:1; Ps. 50:15; 90:4; Eccl. 7:14; Isa. 4:2; 11:10; Zech. 4:10), but usually it refers to a 24-hour day (i.e., Exod. 20:9-10).

"light" Remember that there is no sun yet. Be careful not to be dogmatic about the time sequence.

24 hours for the earth to rotate which may not have been constant throughout earth's history
the speed of light as a reliable constant to date earth years

Light (BDB 21) is a biblical symbol of life, purity, and truth (cf. Job 33:30; Ps. 56:13; 112:4; Isa. 58:8,10; 59:9; 60:1-3; John 1:5-9; 2 Cor. 4:6). In Rev. 22:5 there is light with no sun. Also notice that darkness is created (cf. Isa. 45:7) and named by God (cf. Gen. 1:5) which shows His control (cf. Ps. 74:16; 104:20-23; 139:12).

John H. Walton, The Lost World of Genesis One (p. 55ff), based on Gen. 1:4,5, asserts that this means "a period of light," not the origin of the sun. Remember, Genesis 1 is not primarily about the origin of matter but the functioning of God's ordered world.

1:5 "God called" (Gen. 1:8,10) This naming is an ANE idiom showing God's ownership and control.

"And there was evening and there was morning" This order could reflect the existence of darkness before the creation of light. The rabbis interpreted this as the day beginning in the evening. There was dark and then there was light. This is reflected in Jesus' day also where the new day began at twilight, in the evening. Time, as we experience it, began here (i.e., Gen. 8:22).

I am a firm believer in the the young earth-

In the creation account, each day begins with "And God said..." and ends with "there was evening and there was morning," marking a distinct cycle.

However, the exact meaning of yom in Genesis has been debated. Some hold to the view that these are literal 24-hour days, while others interpret them as symbolic of longer periods, possibly representing ages or stages of creation. What is central to the biblical account is that God intentionally created everything in a structured and ordered manner over six distinct phases, regardless of how one interprets the length of those days.

Depending on context-
yôm: A masculine noun meaning day, time, year. This word stands as the most basic conception of time in the Old Testament. It designates such wide-ranging elements as the daylight hours from sunrise to sunset (Gen_1:5; 1Ki_19:4); a literal twenty-four hour cycle (Deu_16:8; 2Ki_25:30); a generic span of time (Gen_26:8; Num_20:15); a given point in time (Gen_2:17; Gen_47:29; Eze_33:12). In the plural, the word may also mean the span of life (Psa_102:3 [4]) or a year (Lev_25:29; 1Sa_27:7). The prophets often infuse the word with end-times meanings or connotations, using it in connection with a future period of consequential events, such as the "day of the LORD" (Jer_46:10; Zec_14:1) or simply, "that day" (Isa_19:23; Zec_14:20-21).
Word Study

I can tell you, Utley is really making me rethink my theology.
J.

 

[Johann]

"day" The Hebrew term yom (BDB 398) can refer to a period of time (cf. Gen. 2:4; 5:2; Ruth 1:1; Ps. 50:15; 90:4; Eccl. 7:14; Isa. 4:2; 11:10; Zech. 4:10), but usually it refers to a 24-hour day (i.e., Exod. 20:9-10).

"light" Remember that there is no sun yet. Be careful not to be dogmatic about the time sequence.

24 hours for the earth to rotate which may not have been constant throughout earth's history
the speed of light as a reliable constant to date earth years

Light (BDB 21) is a biblical symbol of life, purity, and truth (cf. Job 33:30; Ps. 56:13; 112:4; Isa. 58:8,10; 59:9; 60:1-3; John 1:5-9; 2 Cor. 4:6). In Rev. 22:5 there is light with no sun. Also notice that darkness is created (cf. Isa. 45:7) and named by God (cf. Gen. 1:5) which shows His control (cf. Ps. 74:16; 104:20-23; 139:12).

John H. Walton, The Lost World of Genesis One (p. 55ff), based on Gen. 1:4,5, asserts that this means "a period of light," not the origin of the sun. Remember, Genesis 1 is not primarily about the origin of matter but the functioning of God's ordered world.

1:5 "God called" (Gen. 1:8,10) This naming is an ANE idiom showing God's ownership and control.

"And there was evening and there was morning" This order could reflect the existence of darkness before the creation of light. The rabbis interpreted this as the day beginning in the evening. There was dark and then there was light. This is reflected in Jesus' day also where the new day began at twilight, in the evening. Time, as we experience it, began here (i.e., Gen. 8:22).

I am a firm believer in the the young earth-

In the creation account, each day begins with "And God said..." and ends with "there was evening and there was morning," marking a distinct cycle.

However, the exact meaning of yom in Genesis has been debated. Some hold to the view that these are literal 24-hour days, while others interpret them as symbolic of longer periods, possibly representing ages or stages of creation. What is central to the biblical account is that God intentionally created everything in a structured and ordered manner over six distinct phases, regardless of how one interprets the length of those days.

Depending on context-
yôm: A masculine noun meaning day, time, year. This word stands as the most basic conception of time in the Old Testament. It designates such wide-ranging elements as the daylight hours from sunrise to sunset (Gen_1:5; 1Ki_19:4); a literal twenty-four hour cycle (Deu_16:8; 2Ki_25:30); a generic span of time (Gen_26:8; Num_20:15); a given point in time (Gen_2:17; Gen_47:29; Eze_33:12). In the plural, the word may also mean the span of life (Psa_102:3 [4]) or a year (Lev_25:29; 1Sa_27:7). The prophets often infuse the word with end-times meanings or connotations, using it in connection with a future period of consequential events, such as the "day of the LORD" (Jer_46:10; Zec_14:1) or simply, "that day" (Isa_19:23; Zec_14:20-21).
Word Study

I can tell you, Utley is really making me rethink my theology.
J.

SPECIAL TOPIC: DAY (YOM)

Day (Yom) -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

www.freebiblecommentary.org

 

[GodsGrace]

I'd challenge the lot of that evidence as actually proving the flood, for the most part.

There was a flood - seems to have been world-wide.

For me, the issue is, Is the Bible to be trusted.

Yes. If not, we're all lost.

Did God in fact create heaven and earth and all that is in them in 6 days, the same kind of days as the Sabbath Rest day,

God created the heavens and the earth...in the beginning.
6 days?
I doubt it.
I'd be willing to post some links or videos by John Lennox.
But I doubt you'll want to see them.
If your faith in God depends on the bible being literal and having not one mistake in it...
then so be it.
I'm not here to question your faith or change it in any way.

like the Bible says? In 6 days . . . so rest on the 7th day. Or not? If not, we are certainly left to wonder, what is real, and what is parable? Figurative? Illustrative? Just flowery speech?

Much love!

God is real.
He's revealed Himself to us.
In different ways, in different times.
Jesus is the ultimate revelation.
Look to Him.

 

[marks]

God created the heavens and the earth...in the beginning.
6 days?
I doubt it.
I'd be willing to post some links or videos by John Lennox.
But I doubt you'll want to see them.
If your faith in God depends on the bible being literal and having not one mistake in it...
then so be it.
I'm not here to question your faith or change it in any way.

To my understanding there is one plain way to read this passage:

Exodus 20:8-11 KJV
8) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9) Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The six days of creation and the 7th day of rest are all in the same context. How long is the 7th day of rest? Sundown to sundown, so in this passage God defines His terms, of what a creation day is.

So called science denies the Scriptures, and this is to me no surprise.

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

To my understanding there is one plain way to read this passage:

Exodus 20:8-11 KJV
8) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9) Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The six days of creation and the 7th day of rest are all in the same context. How long is the 7th day of rest? Sundown to sundown, so in this passage God defines His terms, of what a creation day is.

So called science denies the Scriptures, and this is to me no surprise.

Much love!

Science denies the scriptures now.
It used to be that science upheld the scriptures.
This has more to do with post-modernism than with biblical problems.
We shouldn't think that we need to choose between science or religion...
We have both and need both.
Science does not explain the transcendental aspects of man...those things in man that cannot be seen.
Right now science is trying to figure out what consciousness is since it can't be found materially, it can't be weighed, we have no idea where it is or what it is.
Ditto for gravity....we don't know what gravity is...we only know of the law and that it works.
It works because God created every natural law so that we could live by it.
Science depends on the laws of nature that God created.
DNA is a language.
Who invented it?

I know God exists, I know God created....
how or when doesn't interest me all that much.

As to the day of rest...
Are we still in that day?
Do we not rest in God?

It's complicated and minds have pondered this.
Day in Hebrew could mean 24 hours or it could even mean an age.
God made Adam one day and then immediately made Eve.
I guess God realized immediately that man needed a helpmate?
Maybe this realization took some time?

I don't think we either 1. could know all these things or 2. should be relying on them for our faith.
(which is what I think you're doing).

But I don't judge you for this.
Nor should you judge me.
God just speaks to us in different ways.

 

[marks]

(which is what I think you're doing).

You are not correct about this. My faith is in my Father. And I believe what He tells me.

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

You are not correct about this. My faith is in my Father. And I believe what He tells me.

Much love!

My point is that you should believe in God Father.
So good ending to a good conversation.

 

[marks]

As to the day of rest...
Are we still in that day?
Do we not rest in God?

No, as this was the weekly Sabbath given to Israel as a part of their covenant of obedience made with God at Mt. Sinai. It was a shadow for our eternal rest in Christ, however, that it was a shadow doesn't change that this was a 1 day of the week rest, of the same sort of day as the other 6 days of the week, including in the creation week.

I saying, if these words mean something, that's what they mean.

Much love!

 

[marks]

My point is that you should believe in God Father.

Isn't that what I just said?

confused

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

No, as this was the weekly Sabbath given to Israel as a part of their covenant of obedience made with God at Mt. Sinai. It was a shadow for our eternal rest in Christ, however, that it was a shadow doesn't change that this was a 1 day of the week rest, of the same sort of day as the other 6 days of the week, including in the creation week.

I saying, if these words mean something, that's what they mean.

Much love!

Yes. I understand you Marks.
But one of the reasons that some do NOT believe in 6 literal days is because of this Sabbath rest that we're still in.
I'm not too keen on having this conversation.
You should believe what you believe.
The important thing is that you believe in God, love Jesus and man, as He taught.
The rest is just talk.

 

[marks]

I'm not too keen on having this conversation.

OK.

No need to respond . . .

That I am interested need not have any consequence to you.

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

Isn't that what I just said?

confused

Much love!

LOL
I was agreeing with you.

 

[GodsGrace]

OK.

No need to respond . . .

That I am interested need not have any consequence to you.

Much love!

I'm sorry Marks.
I'm willing to continue if you wish.
I'm always worried that this type of conversation might negatively affect someone who puts
all his trust in every word in the bible.
It's up to you...

 

[marks]

I'm always worried that this type of conversation might negatively affect someone who puts
all his trust in every word in the bible.

Thanks but no thanks! And you needn't be concerned, I believe God, and that's not an issue. The so-called science can't stand against God anyway. To many internal contradictions to be real.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I'm sorry Marks.
I'm willing to continue if you wish.
I'm always worried that this type of conversation might negatively affect someone who puts
all his trust in every word in the bible.
It's up to you...

I'd like to think you are able to see the difference between "needing the Bible to be true" and "finding the Bible to be true".

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

I'd like to think you are able to see the difference between "needing the Bible to be true" and "finding the Bible to be true".

Much love!

Yes, absolutely I see the difference.
You're in the second category.

 

[Windmill Charge]

I don't really know what you're speaking of.
What do you mean that a Greek influence is not found in the bible?

Those who believe the bible is the result of late editors writing after the events they describe would have been writing durring the time of the Greeks ruling the middle East.

Just as Egyptian influence is found in the books of moses, so durring the exile and late Kings we find the influence of the dominate power.

 

[Windmill Charge]

I trust the entire bible: The OT and the NT because it was inspired by God.

Except where it say that God created in 6 days.
That as Paul says that death came to all through the act of one man.

Presumably you do believe that God declared that death and suffering are very good.

 

[Johann]

Except where it say that God created in 6 days.
That as Paul says that death came to all through the act of one man.

Presumably you do believe that God declared that death and suffering are very good.

No, God did not declare that death and suffering are "very good." In Genesis 1, after creating the heavens, the earth, and all living things, including humanity, God declared His creation to be "very good" (Genesis 1:31). However, at this point in creation, death and suffering had not yet entered the world.

Death and suffering came later as a result of sin. In Genesis 3, after Adam and Eve disobeyed God's command by eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the curse of death and suffering entered the world (Genesis 3:16-19). This was not part of God's original declaration of creation being "very good." Instead, these consequences were a result of the Fall and humanity's rebellion against God.
J.

 

[Windmill Charge]

No, God did not declare that death and suffering are "very good." In Genesis 1, after creating the heavens, the earth, and all living things, including humanity, God declared His creation to be "very good" (Genesis 1:31). However, at this point in creation, death and suffering had not yet entered the world.

Death and suffering came later as a result of sin. In Genesis 3, after Adam and Eve disobeyed God's command by eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the curse of death and suffering entered the world (Genesis 3:16-19). This was not part of God's original declaration of creation being "very good." Instead, these consequences were a result of the Fall and humanity's rebellion against God.
J.

If one does not believe in the creation account then one has to accept that death and suffering existed long before a hyperthetical Adam fell.

Do read the whole post.
How can someone claim to trust the bible and God, but not believe what ia in the bible?