What affect is there on The Fall and The Atonement, if Adam was not the first human?

[Johann]

It was a fulfillment of prophecy, right?

Matthew 5:17 NIV
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

In Matthew 5:17, when Jesus states, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them," He is positioning Himself as the fulfillment of the entire Old Testament—both the Law (Torah) and the Prophets.

Breaking Down the Passage:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets..."

The Law refers primarily to the Torah, the first five books of the Old Testament, which contain God’s commandments for Israel.
The Prophets refer to the writings of the major and minor prophets (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc.) as well as the prophetic messages embedded throughout the Old Testament. These often point forward to a Messianic expectation and a future kingdom.
By stating that He has not come to abolish (Greek: καταλύω katalyō, meaning "to destroy or dismantle") the Law or the Prophets, Jesus clarifies that His mission is not to invalidate or set aside what had been written and commanded by God in the Old Testament.

"...but to fulfill them."
The key word here is "fulfill" (Greek: πληρόω plēroō), meaning "to complete, to bring to its intended goal, to bring to full expression." Jesus is explaining that He is the culmination of everything the Law and the Prophets pointed toward. He is the embodiment of their deepest intentions and prophetic foresights.
Fulfill can be understood in several ways:

Prophetically: Jesus fulfills the numerous Messianic prophecies found in the Old Testament, which anticipated the coming of a Savior who would restore Israel and bring salvation to the world.

Morally and Ethically: Jesus fulfills the moral intent of the Law by perfectly obeying it, showing what a life of total righteousness looks like, and then teaching a deeper understanding of it in passages like the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7).

Sacrificially: The entire sacrificial system in the Law, which provided temporary atonement for sin, pointed forward to the ultimate sacrifice that Jesus would offer on the cross, thus bringing the perfect atonement for sin.

Covenantally: The Law was a key aspect of the old covenant between God and Israel. Jesus, through His life, death, and resurrection, inaugurates the new covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34), which the old covenant foreshadowed.
"Do not think" This is a NEGATIVE AORIST ACTIVE SUBJUNCTIVE which was a grammatical construction that meant "do not ever start!"

"that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets" What does "abolish" mean? It is used in several contexts in Matthew.

Matt. 5:17 ‒
NASB, NRSV, NJB, REB  "abolish"
NKJV  "destroy"
TEV  "to do away with"
Peshitta  "weaken"
Matt. 24:2 ‒ destroy the temple
Matt. 26:61 ‒ also destroy the temple
note usage in Acts 5:38-39, where it refers to Gamaliel's quote "to overthrow"

Possibly it refers to ending the OT sacrificial system as a way for sinful humans to approach a holy God. The new way is the once and for all sacrifice of Jesus. This is Paul's summary of Rom. 1:15-3:20 in the powerful words of Rom. 3:21-31.
SPECIAL TOPIC: PAUL'S VIEWS OF THE MOSAIC LAW
SPECIAL TOPIC: THE SUPERIORITY OF THE NEW COVENANT OVER THE MOSAIC COVENANT
The context of Matt. 5:17-20 is a statement affirming the inspiration and eternality of the Old Covenant. Jesus acted in a sense as the second Moses, the new Law-giver. Jesus Himself was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant. The New Covenant is a person, not a set of required rules. The two covenants are radically different, not in purpose but in the means of accomplishing that purpose (cf. Jer. 31:31-34; Ezek. 36:22-36). The thrust here is not on the inability of the Old Covenant to make man right with God as in Galatians 3, but rather on the rabbis' incomplete and improper interpretation of the biblical texts by means of their Socratic or dialectical method of interpretation.

Jesus, in effect, expanded the scope of the Law from overt actions to mental thoughts. This takes the difficulty of true righteousness through the Old Covenant to a level of utter impossibility (cf. Gal. 3:10,21-22). This impossibility will be met by Christ Himself and given back to the repentant/believing faith community through imputed righteousness or justification by faith (cf. Rom. 4:6; 10:4; 2 Cor. 5:21). Mankind's religious life is a result of a relationship with God, not a means to that relationship.

Matthew Chapter 5

Couldn't resist.
Later.
J.

 

[St. SteVen]

I meant about how Jesus said to ask anything in His name and the Father will grant it.

Unfortunately, or not, we need to balance it with the way Jesus operated.
(Imagine the abuses if we REALLY could get ANYTHING we asked for in Jesus' name)
If every believer could toss a mountain in the sea, how many mountains would be left?

Jesus said...
"... the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing,
because whatever the Father does the Son also does.." - John 5:19 NIV

We need to follow the leading of God (the Holy Spirit). Formulas don't work.
Compare the different ways Jesus was led to heal the blind. NO FORMULAS!

[

 

[Johann]

Unfortunately, or not, we need to balance it with the way Jesus operated.
(Imagine the abuses if we REALLY could get ANYTHING we asked for in Jesus' name)
If every believer could toss a mountain in the sea, how many mountains would be left?

Jesus said...
"... the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing,
because whatever the Father does the Son also does.." - John 5:19 NIV

We need to follow the leading of God (the Holy Spirit). Formulas don't work.
Compare the different ways Jesus was led to heal the blind. NO FORMULAS!

[

Thy will be done-not MY will be done.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Unfortunately, or not, we need to balance it with the way Jesus operated.
(Imagine the abuses if we REALLY could get ANYTHING we asked for in Jesus' name)
If every believer could toss a mountain in the sea, how many mountains would be left?

Jesus said...
"... the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing,
because whatever the Father does the Son also does.." - John 5:19 NIV

We need to follow the leading of God (the Holy Spirit). Formulas don't work.
Compare the different ways Jesus was led to heal the blind. NO FORMULAS!

Thy will be done-not MY will be done.

Can you think of another way to explain this scripture?

John 16:24 NIV
Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

[

 

[Johann]

John 16:24 NIV
Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

Good 'un--who were the recipients?
Audience:

The discourse in which John 16:24 is located is addressed to Jesus' disciples. The entire Farewell Discourse (John 14-17) occurs on the night before Jesus’ crucifixion, during the Last Supper, and is intended for His closest followers. The disciples are the direct audience for His teachings during this period.
Purpose of the Discourse:

Jesus is preparing His disciples for His impending departure and the coming challenges. He is providing them with comfort, instructions, and promises to encourage them and guide them in their continued journey of faith without His physical presence.
Specific References in John 16:

John 16:1 begins with, “All this I have told you so that you will not fall away.” This sets the stage for a message intended for the disciples, ensuring they remain steadfast and understand what is to come.
John 16:5 states, “But now I am going to him who sent me; none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’” This indicates that the conversation is directed at the disciples, who are perplexed and sorrowful about Jesus’ departure.
Promised Fulfillment:

In John 16:23, Jesus mentions that “in that day” they will ask Him for nothing but will pray directly to the Father in His name. This refers to the new reality that will come after His resurrection and ascension, which will affect the disciples’ relationship with God and their approach to prayer.
Encouragement and Assurance:

In John 16:24, Jesus encourages the disciples to ask in His name so that their joy may be complete. This promise is specifically meant to assure them of the new dynamic in their relationship with God and the blessings that come from praying in Jesus' name.
Greek Words and Grammar:
ἕως ἄρτι (heōs arti): "Until now" indicates the time up to the moment of Jesus’ speech.
οὐκ ἐπηρώτησεν (ouk ēperōtēsen): "You have not asked" reflects the disciples' lack of direct requests in Jesus' name up to this point.
αἴτητε καὶ λήψεσθε (aítēte kai lēpsesthe): "Ask and you will receive" is a direct instruction to the disciples, indicating their future practice.
ἵνα ἡ χαρὰ ὑμῶν πληρωθῇ (hina hē chara hymōn plērōthē): "That your joy may be complete" is a promise specifically made to the disciples, ensuring their joy will be fully realized through this new practice.


Jesus’ instruction in John 16:24 is directed specifically at His disciples. He is preparing them for the new relationship they will have with God through prayer in His name, and this promise is meant to comfort and assure them as they face His departure and the coming trials. The verse reflects a direct promise and instruction to the disciples, emphasizing the significance of asking in Jesus' name and the resulting complete joy.
Hitherto (heōs arti). Up till now the disciples had not used Christ’s name in prayer to the Father, but after the resurrection of Jesus they are to do so, a distinct plea for parity with the Father and for worship like the Father.
May be fulfilled (ēi peplērōmenē). Periphrastic perfect passive subjunctive of plēroō in a purpose clause with hina. See Joh_15:11 for some verb (first aorist passive subjunctive with hina) and 1Jn_1:4 for same form as here, emphasizing the abiding permanence of the joy.
-- nothing in my name] Because Jesus was not yet glorified, was not yet fully known to the Apostles.
ask] The full meaning of the Greek is go on asking; it is the present not aorist imperative. Comp. Joh 5:14, [Joh 8:11,] Joh 20:17, and contrast Mat 7:7 with Mar 6:22.
may be full] Or, may be fulfilled, so as to be complete and remain so. His return to the Father will gain for them (3) perfect joy. See on Joh 15:11 and comp. Joh 17:13; 1Jn 1:4; 2Jn 1:12.


Joh 16:25 I have spoken λελάληκα these things Ταῦτα to you ὑμῖν· in ἐν allegories; παροιμίαις an hour ὥρα is coming ἔρχεται when ὅτε I will speak λαλήσω to you ὑμῖν, no more οὐκέτι in ἐν allegories, παροιμίαις but ἀλλὰ I will report ἀπαγγελῶ to you ὑμῖν. plainly παρρησίᾳ concerning περὶ the τοῦ Father. Πατρὸς
Joh 16:26 In ἐν that ἐκείνῃ - τῇ day ἡμέρᾳ you will ask αἰτήσεσθε, in ἐν My μου - τῷ name, ὀνόματί and καὶ vvv οὐ I do not say λέγω to you ὑμῖν that ὅτι I ἐγὼ will implore ἐρωτήσω the τὸν Father Πατέρα for περὶ you. ὑμῶν·
Joh 16:27 For γὰρ the ὁ Father Πατὴρ Himself αὐτὸς loves φιλεῖ you, ὑμᾶς, because ὅτι you ὑμεῖς have loved πεφιλήκατε Me ἐμὲ and καὶ have believed πεπιστεύκατε that ὅτι I ἐγὼ came forth ἐξῆλθον. from παρὰ - τοῦ God. Θεοῦ
Joh 16:28 I came forth ἐξῆλθον from ἐκ the τοῦ Father Πατρὸς and καὶ have come ἐλήλυθα into εἰς the τὸν world; κόσμον· again πάλιν I leave ἀφίημι the τὸν world κόσμον and καὶ go πορεύομαι to πρὸς the τὸν Father.” Πατέρα.

And another-

Joh 16:23 And when that time comes, you will ask nothing of Me [you will need to ask Me no questions]. I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, that My Father will grant you whatever you ask in My Name [as presenting all that I AM]. [Exo_3:14]
Joh 16:24 Up to this time you have not asked a [single] thing in My Name [as presenting all that I AM]; but now ask and keep on asking and you will receive, so that your joy (gladness, delight) may be full and complete.



Joh 16:25 I have told you these things in parables (veiled language, allegories, dark sayings); the hour is now coming when I shall no longer speak to you in figures of speech, but I shall tell you about the Father in plain words and openly (without reserve).
Joh 16:26 At that time you will ask (pray) in My Name; and I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf [for it will be unnecessary].
Joh 16:27 For the Father Himself [tenderly] loves you because you have loved Me and have believed that I came out from the Father.
Joh 16:28 I came out from the Father and have come into the world; again, I am leaving the world and going to the Father.
Joh 16:29 His disciples said, Ah, now You are speaking plainly to us and not in parables (veiled language and figures of speech)!
Joh 16:30 Now we know that You are acquainted with everything and have no need to be asked questions. Because of this we believe that you [really] came from God.
Joh 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do you now believe? [Do you believe it at last?]

Later.
J.

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus’ instruction in John 16:24 is directed specifically at His disciples. He is preparing them for the new relationship they will have with God through prayer in His name, and this promise is meant to comfort and assure them as they face His departure and the coming trials. The verse reflects a direct promise and instruction to the disciples, emphasizing the significance of asking in Jesus' name and the resulting complete joy.
Hitherto (heōs arti). Up till now the disciples had not used Christ’s name in prayer to the Father, but after the resurrection of Jesus they are to do so, a distinct plea for parity with the Father and for worship like the Father.

What do you make of these?

Mark 9:38 NIV
“Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”

Luke 9:49 NIV
“Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”

Luke 10:17 NIV
The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”

[

 

[Johann]

What do you make of these?

Mark 9:38 NIV
“Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”

Luke 9:49 NIV
“Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”

Luke 10:17 NIV
The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”

[

Late here in South Africa-01.28 AM [after midnight]

Shalom.
J.

 

[Windmill Charge]

What do you make of these?

Mark 9:38 NIV
“Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”

Luke 9:49 NIV
“Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”

Luke 10:17 NIV
The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”

[

Acts 19:13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, ‘In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.’ 14 Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 One day the evil spirit answered them, ‘Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?’ 16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

Shows that a mere reciting a formula without a personal relationship with Jesus can be dangerous.

 

[Windmill Charge]

If there was no literal Adam....
does that mean there was no literal Jesus

If there was no Adam, then there was no fall, if no fall there is no separation from God and no need for a saviour.

 

[Windmill Charge]

Did Jesus' parables have spiritual value?
Were they "true"?

[

A parabledoes not pretend to be literal historical fact, it is a story intended to convey a truth.

 

[Johann]

Ever wondered why Scripture is always in dialectical pairs?

 

[RedFan]

A parabledoes not pretend to be literal historical fact, it is a story intended to convey a truth.

I think that was @St. SteVen's point. I'll add to it: it's not always obvious when a story is a parable.

 

[St. SteVen]

I think that was @St. SteVen's point. I'll add to it: it's not always obvious when a story is a parable.

Agree, thanks.
And vice versa. It's not always obvious when a "parable" is a story.
Case in point, the Story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. IMHO

[

 

[GodsGrace]

If there was no Adam, then there was no fall, if no fall there is no separation from God and no need for a saviour.

What difference does it make if there was no man named Adam?
Genesis starts with: IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED...

THIS is what is important.
There was a first man - I'm not too sure his name was Adam...which means from the earth/dirt.
Maybe this means that he was just another creation of God...made from something that God had just created.

And you think it took 6 days to create everything?
Seems like it took the earth a really long time to get to where it is today.
So does this mean God does not exist?
Are you sure DAY means 24 hours?
In another verse in Genesis it's shown that it does NOT mean 24 hours.

Do we not see a separation from God?
Does this visible aspect of man disappear because some man named Adam didn't exist?
Does it change OUR NATURE?
Does the reason we sin change?

Does man not need God?
Even Dawkins stated that he's a cultural christian.
What does that mean?
He's admitted that a world without God would be a dreadful world.
And why, because GOD MADE US, as is stated.
And without God something is missing that makes man be a human being, a small part of which is spirit.
HOW hardly matters and I think it's a miracle that whoever wrote Genesis was so inspired by God as to have the best explanation of both our existence and of our nature and of our need for God.

 

[GodsGrace]

A parabledoes not pretend to be literal historical fact, it is a story intended to convey a truth.

BTW, the OT does NOT pretend to be literal historical fact...
although it DOES contain historical facts.
It is NOT a science book,
although it does contain facts of science.

 

[Windmill Charge]

Genesis starts with: IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED...

So at what point can we start believing what the Bible say can be trusted?

If God cannot create in 6 days, if God cannot inform Moses of what happened in Eden or in the flood, how do we know that any spiritual value assigned to stories are true?

 

[Windmill Charge]

BTW, the OT does NOT pretend to be literal historical fact...
although it DOES contain historical facts.
It is NOT a science book,
although it does contain facts of science.

The bible it might surprise you is a library of books, so e are historical prose, others poetry, other apoplectic writing.
But what will surprise you most is that those who understand the languages of the Bible have confirmed that there is a strong Egyptian In fluency in the Pentateuch, that the claims of liberals who believe the bible is an edited revision of what they wanted to have happen is not possible because the late revision would have contained a Greek influence and this is not found in the bible.

 

[GodsGrace]

So at what point can we start believing what the Bible say can be trusted?

If God cannot create in 6 days, if God cannot inform Moses of what happened in Eden or in the flood, how do we know that any spiritual value assigned to stories are true?

I suppose we will all have to decide which parts of the bible are literal and which parts are put there to tell a fact, to explain something that is real but may not have happened exactly so.

I trust the entire bible: The OT and the NT because it was inspired by God.

I can't say the earth was created in 6 days because it's scientifically proven that it wasn't.
I don't believe the earth is 6,000 years old because it's a scientific fact that it's very old.
About 4.5 billion years old.

If you want to believe the above,,,,it's your prerogative.
But it tells me that you need to trust in A BOOK and not IN GOD.

You mention the spiritual value of the bible.
This I can certainly accept....it most certainly is a spiritual book...
the best one humans have.

 

[GodsGrace]

The bible it might surprise you is a library of books,

Wow Windmill
yes
this is rather shocking!!
So happy to learn of this.

So do you think that those that don't believe as you do are somewhat dumb?

so e are historical prose, others poetry, other apoplectic writing.
But what will surprise you most is that those who understand the languages of the Bible have confirmed that there is a strong Egyptian In fluency in the Pentateuch, that the claims of liberals who believe the bible is an edited revision of what they wanted to have happen is not possible because the late revision would have contained a Greek influence and this is not found in the bible.

I'm not a liberal.
And I don't really know what you're speaking of.
What do you mean that a Greek influence is not found in the bible?
The Apostles and Early Church Fathers studied Greek philosophy.
Not all the Apostles...sorry 'bout that.
Paul certainly knew Greek, and even Jesus might have known a little of Greek since He lived near
a trading route just south of Nazareth.

 

[marks]

I can't say the earth was created in 6 days because it's scientifically proven that it wasn't.
I don't believe the earth is 6,000 years old because it's a scientific fact that it's very old.
About 4.5 billion years old.

I'd challenge the lot of that evidence as actually proving the flood, for the most part. For me, the issue is, Is the Bible to be trusted. Did God in fact create heaven and earth and all that is in them in 6 days, the same kind of days as the Sabbath Rest day, like the Bible says? In 6 days . . . so rest on the 7th day. Or not? If not, we are certainly left to wonder, what is real, and what is parable? Figurative? Illustrative? Just flowery speech?

Much love!