Premils won't understand the amil view until they understand this.

[Spiritual Israelite]

But you said that "death is swallowed up in victory" how could it be death is swallowed up in victory if people still die after? That happens below after the end of our world.



Revelation 21
4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

Good point. Also, both of those verses are quoted as being the fulfillment of Isaiah 25:8, and Revelation 21:4 is clear that there will literally be no more death after that.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

But you said that "death is swallowed up in victory" how could it be death is swallowed up in victory if people still die after? That happens below after the end of our world.

That verse is talking about the dead in Christ being raised up first to immortality….

1 Corinthians 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That verse is talking about the dead in Christ being raised up first to immortality….

1 Corinthians 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

You're dodging his question. In your doctrine, death is not truly swallowed up in victory at the last trumpet as Paul taught because you even have believers dying after that. So much for death being swallowed up in victory.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

You're dodging his question. In your doctrine, death is not truly swallowed up in victory at the last trumpet as Paul taught because you even have believers dying after that. So much for death being swallowed up in victory.

I said the saints who are made immortal who are of the first resurrection shall not die again, as the scriptures I posted clearly states the same.

That verse is talking about the dead in Christ being raised up first to immortality….

1 Corinthians 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

Luke 20:35-36

King James Version

​

35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

 

[WPM]

I said the saints who are made immortal who are of the first resurrection shall not die again, as the scriptures I posted clearly states the same.

That verse is talking about the dead in Christ being raised up first to immortality….

1 Corinthians 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

Luke 20:35-36

King James Version

​

35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

In Luke 20:34-36, Jesus basically compares the temporal imperfect state of this present age/world to the glory of the age/world to come. Jesus says: “The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

This couldn’t be any clearer.

Whilst the “children of this age marry, and are given in marriage” (according to Christ in Luke 20:34-36), Jesus presents the future age as a glorified place that is earned by those alone who are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” These people are shown to be the glorified saints alone. This could never refer to the unsaved, mortals of any kind, or the nations that come against Jerusalem as some suggest. These would all obviously eventually die. Such people are expressly barred from the age to come. This is speaking about immortal glorified believers only.

You have countless heathens populating the new earth in their corrupt mortal bodies. You have all the vice of our day prospering in their millennial age. You have all the sin and debauchery and rebellion of our day continuing in that day. Contrary to what Jesus says, You have millennial mortals continuing to “marry, and are given in marriage” – just like “the children of this age.” You render millions of unregenerate unsaved worthy to inherit the new earth. They are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” However, the words of Christ negate such a belief.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Jesus said in Matthew 16:18-19: “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed In heaven.”

He was given us His power.

First of all, he was talking to his apostles, not to everyone else. They have the authority, not us.
Second, Jesus speaks of building his church, not ruling over the nations with a rod of iron.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Only at the end of our world

I don't see what you see.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Premillennialism is always elevating Satan.

Wrong. We don't elevate Satan.

Premil is always exalting the power and influence of Satan.

Wrong. We acknowledge it, which is why we take Paul's exhortation to heart to stand firm. Ephesians 6:10-17

It portrays a small impotent Jesus, a powerless Church and a big devil.

Wrong. Premillennialism is a geopolitical theory that teaches that Jesus will restore Israel, protect her from her enemies, and enforce the will of God on earth as it is in heaven. This has yet to happen. Therefore, we live in a time different from the Millennial period.

Amil and Postmil on the other hand have a big Jesus, a powerful Church and a small devil.

And a vivid imagination. Face reality. Currently, Jesus has chosen to effectuate his authority in terms of faith and belief. He and his apostles have the authority to dictate what is true, right, and good. Those who follow him, follow his commandments, keep his word and abide in him. He has chosen to wait until his father has placed national, international, and geopolitical authorities under his feet.

There is multiple Scripture that shows the redeemed have power over Satan in this new covenant period.

During the Millennial Period, no one will need power over Satan because he will be out of the picture. He will be bound and unable to influence anyone.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Repeated Scripture shows that Christ is reigning now! He is reigning upon high now! He is King! He is Lord.

He is king and lord now. And he has been granted all authority now. But he must wait until his second coming, after which the Father will put all other authorities and powers under his feet. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28

All power and authority belongs to Him now. Your false teaching causes you to dethrone Christ from His sovereign place reigning over His enemies today.

If you believe Christ is reigning over his enemies today, my advice is to go outside and look around.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Revelation 20
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

&

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Given what we hear in the news every day, do you believe Jesus is in charge?

 

[WPM]

He is king and lord now. And he has been granted all authority now. But he must wait until his second coming, after which the Father will put all other authorities and powers under his feet. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28

If you believe Christ is reigning over his enemies today, my advice is to go outside and look around.

You avoid all the Scripture. You have to. It forbids Premil.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

These people are shown to be the glorified saints alone.

Right, those saints who are of the first resurrection shall be immortal.

This could never refer to the unsaved, mortals of any kind, or the nations that come against Jerusalem as some suggest. These would all obviously eventually die. Such people are expressly barred from the age to come. This is speaking about immortal glorified believers only.

You have countless heathens populating the new earth in their corrupt mortal bodies. You have all the vice of our day prospering in their millennial age. You have all the sin and debauchery and rebellion of our day continuing in that day. Contrary to what Jesus says, You have millennial mortals continuing to “marry, and are given in marriage” – just like “the children of this age.” You render millions of unregenerate unsaved worthy to inherit the new earth. They are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” However, the words of Christ negate such a belief.

I never said the unsaved mortals were the immortal saints. But during the thousand year reign the immortal saints will reign over the remnant of the mortal nations that are left on earth.

Revelation 2:26-27

King James Version

​

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

 

[WPM]

Right, those saints who are of the first resurrection shall be immortal.

I never said the unsaved mortals were the immortal saints. But during the thousand year reign the immortal saints will reign over the remnant of the mortal nations that are left on earth.

Revelation 2:26-27

King James Version

​

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

You are avoiding what I wrote.

In Luke 20:34-36, Jesus basically compares the temporal imperfect state of this present age/world to the glory of the age/world to come. Jesus says: “The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

This couldn’t be any clearer.

Whilst the “children of this age marry, and are given in marriage” (according to Christ in Luke 20:34-36), Jesus presents the future age as a glorified place that is earned by those alone who are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” These people are shown to be the glorified saints alone. This could never refer to the unsaved, mortals of any kind, or the nations that come against Jerusalem as some suggest. These would all obviously eventually die. Such people are expressly barred from the age to come. This is speaking about immortal glorified believers only.

You have countless heathens populating the new earth in their corrupt mortal bodies. You have all the vice of our day prospering in their millennial age. You have all the sin and debauchery and rebellion of our day continuing in that day. Contrary to what Jesus says, You have millennial mortals continuing to “marry, and are given in marriage” – just like “the children of this age.” You render millions of unregenerate unsaved worthy to inherit the new earth. They are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” However, the words of Christ negate such a belief.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You avoid all the Scripture. You have to. It forbids Premil.

What scripture did I avoid? Be specific.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Then why does the binding end before satan final assault and the reigning end at the end of our world as shown in revelation chapter 20?

Revelation 20

King James Version

​

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Jesus' reign ends somepoint after death and the grave are destroyed in the lake of fire.

1 Corinthians 15:25-28

King James Version

​

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

They happen very close to each other in time. Scripture gives no definitive reason as to why (other than with Satan bound, temptation is greatly reduced)

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

You are avoiding what I wrote.

No I’m not, you just don’t believe this part of prophecy….

But during the thousand year reign the immortal saints will reign over the remnant of the mortal nations that are left on earth.

Revelation 2:26-27

King James Version
​

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Whilst the “children of this age marry, and are given in marriage” (according to Christ in Luke 20:34-36), Jesus presents the future age as a glorified place that is earned by those alone who are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.

All this means is that the Millennial period is in this age and not the next.

These people are shown to be the glorified saints alone.

That is not what the passage shows. You are adding that. In that passage, Jesus doesn't deny that glorified saints will live among mortals.

You have countless heathens populating the new earth in their corrupt mortal bodies.

Nothing wrong with that.

You have all the vice of our day prospering in their millennial age.

Not all of it. Jesus will rule them with a rod of iron.

Contrary to what Jesus says, You have millennial mortals continuing to “marry, and are given in marriage” – just like “the children of this age.”

Since the millennial period is in this age, this is not a problem.

However, the words of Christ negate such a belief.

All we can conclude from the passage is that the millennial period is not in the next age, it is in this one.

"You may have missed one more thing: Since the Millennial period is limited to a thousand years, and since the next age will last forever, this is also evidence that the millennial period will fall in this age rather than the next age."

 

[CadyandZoe]

No I’m not, you just don’t believe this part of prophecy….

But during the thousand year reign the immortal saints will reign over the remnant of the mortal nations that are left on earth.

Revelation 2:26-27​

​

King James Version​

​

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Good point.

 

[MatthewG]

Thousand simply means "fullness of time" of whatever is in view regardless of the LENGTH of time!

the fullness of time would be a generation 40 years. In my opinion, when Jesus proclaimed the falling for the temple and destruction.

Jesus proclaimed only one tribulation, happening to a specific generation which was there listening to his voice. I believe 40 years after this proclamation it happened, cause in 70Ad Jerusalem is destroyed.

 

[Marty fox]

Revelation 20​

​

King James Version​

​

​

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Jesus' reign ends somepoint after death and the grave are destroyed in the lake of fire.

1 Corinthians 15:25-28​

​

King James Version​

​

​

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

They happen very close to each other in time. Scripture gives no definitive reason as to why (other than with Satan bound, temptation is greatly reduced)

Verse 7 shows when satan is released

Verse 5 tells us when the rest of the dead lived again

Verse 12 shows us when the rest of the dead lived again, on the judgement day which is after satan is released, has his last assault on the church and is cast into the lake of fire. Thus the binding ends before the reigning.