Premils won't understand the amil view until they understand this.

[Spiritual Israelite]

I doubt that you can, but I will ask anyway, convincingly explain (6) and how someone can be priests of God and of Christ, after they are dead, thus while they are in a disembodied state? I'm not saying you can't maybe explain it, I'm saying you can't convincingly do it. But maybe you will prove me wrong and say something that never crossed my mind before and that it makes sense to me?

Do you acknowledge that we are priests of God and of Christ now?

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

If you do acknowledge that we are priests of God and of Christ now, then tell me what you think that means and why people can't continue to be priests of God and of Christ in heaven after they physically die.

To me, to claim that we are priests now but for some reason would no longer be priests when our souls go to heaven would be like saying we are saved now, but would no longer be saved when we go to heaven. I find the idea to be completely ludicrous.

In my view, being a priest of God and of Christ means we belong to God the Father and His Son as God's people and His followers who submit to Him and worship Him. That doesn't change when our souls go to heaven. Why would it? We don't know exactly what people do when they're in heaven, but I'm sure people worship Him there and there's no reason to think that they are not still priests of God and of Christ in heaven just as we are now on earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As I say, look out the window. Ask yourself if Jesus or his followers are currently ruling over the earth. I don't think so.

You are completely carnal in your thinking, but Christians should think spiritually and not carnally (1 Corinthians 2:9-3:3). Name anything or anyone in heaven or on earth that Jesus does not have power and authority over.

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Do we share the same definition of reign? I mean, are you a mayor or a governor or hold some other

Thats a ridicules waste of time question that has no bearing on this topic.

Agreed. He is spiritually blind. He has no understanding of how spiritual kingdom works. Moving on.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Everything in Revelation 20 is after Jesus's Return, His Second Coming, in Revelation 19.

So, you deny that Jesus reigns now even though scripture explicitly teaches that He has been reigning since His resurrection?

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

You deny that Christ's followers are priests of God and of Christ now even though scripture explicitly teaches that?

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

You deny that the day of judgment takes place when Jesus returns at the end of the age even though scripture explicitly teaches that?

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left....

Matthew 13:40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 20 would not be saying saints lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years unless that's what they are doing. You're not making much sense here.
And look who Revelation 20:4 has living and reigning for a thousand years. Not someone still alive and not even dead yet. But someone who is already dead. They are physically dead first, then they live and reign after that have already died. A bodily resurrection is the only way to make sense of this.

Nonsense. Do you need to be bodily resurrected in order for the second death to not have power over you? Yes or no? Why do you only focus on verse 4 and not the rest of the chapter? Revelation 20:6 heavily supports Amil and not Premil.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first thing to notice here is that it says Jesus Christ is "the first begotten of the dead". That means He was the first to rise from the dead. His resurrection unto bodily immortality made it possible for the dead in Christ to also be resurrected unto bodily immortality when He comes (1 Cor 15:22-23).

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
You need to allow scripture to interpret scripture. The only other verse apart from Revelation 20 containing the Greek words "protos" (first) and anastasis (resurrection) is in the verse above and it is applied to the resurrection of Christ. He was the first to be resurrected unto bodily immortality (1 Cor 15:20-23).

So, having part in the first resurrection means to have part in Christ's resurrection which we all do spiritually when we become saved, as the following indicates:

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

The next thing to notice in Revelation 1:5-6 is that it calls Jesus "the prince of the kings of the earth" and "to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever". Present tense. He reigns now, as other scriptures in indicate as well (Matt 28:16-18, Eph 1:19-23, Col 1:12-13).
The next thing to notice is that having part in the first resurrection, which is Christ's resurrection, results in the second death having no power over someone. At what point does the second death no longer have power over someone? Surely, it doesn't have power over the dead in Christ whose souls are in heaven with Jesus right now. Surely, a bodily resurrection is not necessary in order to avoid the second death or else those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord would not avoid the second death.

Spiritually having part in Christ's resurrection and having your sins washed away by His blood is how the second death no longer has power over someone. Certainly, the second death has no power over the dead in Christ now, so why try to claim that one must be bodily resurrected as part of a supposed mass bodily resurrection in order for the second death to not have power over you?

Finally, notice when people are made priests of God and of Christ. That had already occurred at the time John was writing the book. Peter wrote that those in the church ARE a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9). So, that again shows how Revelation 20 has been a reality for a long time already. All of the things written in Revelation 20:6 have been true about Christ and for believers since the resurrection of Christ. Premils ignore this.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is not up to me to convince you. I am merely a witness and only the Holy Spirit can reveal the truth to you.

First of all, I believe you still do not understand exactly what is the FIRST RESURRECTION is. We can't resurrect from the dead what has already been "resurrected from the dead," and we can't make something dead again that we've had an Oath made to us in the first resurrection that we can never die. Thus either our understanding is in error of the dead in Christ, or Christ made a mistake.

John 11:25-26

• "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
• And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

I believe it. And if He's not talking about the Physical death of the body, He has to be talking about our Spiritual existence with Him. Please understand this, when we are born again in Christ, we are made SPIRITUALLY ALIVE inward instead of our flesh. At the moment, Christ has made us kings and priests in his kingdom to PREACH the gospel right now on Earth! RIGHT NOW, since we already have the first resurrection. We were saved and are part of God's Spiritual kingdom...ON EARTH - through the Church. Christ being the first resurrection means there is no need for a second because when our FLESH physically dies, we simply transfer, leaving the body of this death to go to the Spiritual realm of Heaven and CONTINUE reign with Christ. Guess what? FOREVER!

Thus at the Second Coming, Christ will bring those who have physically died (speaking as a man) with Him when He comes again because all of those people who have already spiritually resurrected in Christ (born again) while they were on Earth. Also, note that it says "though he were dead, yet shall he live." In other words, Christ is saying the person may have died in man's earthly vernacular, but from the heavenly perspective, he lives on and is not dead. Christ is not saying he's dead but He'll live from that death later, but even if you die, you shall be alive. Your flesh body is dead, but in your spirit you were ALREADY alive, living and reigning with Christ, whether you are still physically alive on Earth or in heaven after you physically died.

2nd Corinthians 5:6-8

• "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
• (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
• We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

For the Christian to be absent from the body in death is to be alive, present with the Lord and reigning together with him. But from man's perspective on earth (whom the scriptures are talking to) the person has died. From the true perspective, he's not dead but alive and reigning with Christ.

Revelation 20:4-5

• "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
• But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

Now, the rest of "what" dead? Obviously, the dead who have physically died but didn't have part in the first resurrection (spiritually born again while on Earth). Clearly some souls of the dead go to live and reign with the Lord (according to scripture), while the rest of the souls don't live again until the second resurrection when we read that they are raised up to stand for judgment.

1st Thessalonians 4:13-14

• "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
• For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Jesus died and was resurrected up to new life and so were the saints! Thus they cannot be dead in the sense that they are in the grave in a state of unconsciousness waiting for the second resurrection. Remember, we are already made alive while on earth. So those who have physically died, their souls will be with Christ, and Christ will bring the dead (speaking as a man) back with him. Because "though they are dead, yet they live." When the scriptures say Christ will bring the dead with him, or that the dead in Christ shall be raised first, he's talking to those of us on earth who speak of those who have departed as the dead. Because obviously, no one in Christ is dead. So He's not saying those who have died are actually dead/not-alive, because that contradicts other scriptures that clearly say that the dead in Christ both live, and that they that they never die. That's not a metaphor, they actually never die. Notice it doesn't say the "dead will be changed", but only those who remain and are alive will be changed in an instant. Because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of heaven, but those coming from heaven don't need to be changed. We have two options. Either there are no saints in heaven with spiritual bodies, or they have their spiritual being already because they are in heaven. We can't have it both ways. Moreover, the 24 elders represent the saints of God in heaven, so we have other evidence of this truth.

Mostly agree, except I would say that the dead in Christ have not yet been changed because 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 has to do with the change of our bodies. Only their souls are in heaven, not their bodies. They still await the change of their bodies which will happen when their bodies are resurrected. When they are bodily resurrected at the last trumpet when Christ returns then their bodies will be changed along with the bodies of those who are alive and remain at the same time.

 

[Marty fox]

Sorry tribulation signs but no quote showed up in your reply in post #23

 

[TribulationSigns]

Sorry tribulation signs but no quote showed up in your reply in post #23

Fixed

 

[Douggg]

So, you deny that Jesus reigns now even though scripture explicitly teaches that He has been reigning since His resurrection?

Jesus is not ruling from Jerusalem here on earth - yet.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus is not ruling from Jerusalem here on earth - yet.

He never will. Do you agree that He reigns over all of heaven and earth now as He said He does? Can you explain why you never talk about that? It seems that His current reign doesn't really mean anything to you. Why is that?

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Mostly agree, except I would say that the dead in Christ have not yet been changed because 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 has to do with the change of our bodies. Only their souls are in heaven, not their bodies. They still await the change of their bodies which will happen when their bodies are resurrected. When they are bodily resurrected at the last trumpet when Christ returns then their bodies will be changed along with the bodies of those who are alive and remain at the same time.

Humm. I understand what you are trying to say.

The question is, they went to live with the Lord without a body? So you're saying the saints are living and reigning with Christ in heaven bodiless? Sorry, but a spirit has a spiritual body, else it's like an invisible puff of wind, and a soul has a bodily existence in order to sit on spiritual thrones in the kingdom of heaven. Souls are not just floating smoke or a light breeze, they are substantive. Once again:

Revelation 20:4

• "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
• But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

Scripture says these dead in Christ not only lived and reigned with Christ, but that they were given thrones and sat upon them. Doesn't sound like bodiless wind to me. That these dead lived and reigned with Christ 1000 years bodiless, while the rest of the dead didn't live doesn't ring true? How do you live and sit and reign and glorify God without some type of body? Where's the harmony?

You think the Saints in heaven don't have their spiritual bodies? So who are the twenty-four elders who who praise God? You think the saints are souls that are absent from their earthly body and present with the Lord as what? Puffs of Smoke? Prayers in a vial? They must have spiritual bodies wherein the live and reigned for the whole New Covenant Church period. Else they don't need bodies.

In fact, some Christians believe that the resurrected body is a modified form of the body that was eaten, buried, or burned to ashes. Say what? The resurrected body is a modified form of the body that was sown or buried? I don't read that anywhere in scripture. Speculation is not evidence of anything being either true or Biblical. Keep in mind that the Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of heaven, whether adjusted, modified or customized, it makes no difference. The Spiritual body "IS" your spiritual body "wherein" you live and reign with Christ. Think about this, if you needed a new spiritual body to live with Christ, then how are those who died living and reigning with Christ now? The only way this makes sense is if you believe the souls of those who have died are not living and reigning with Christ now. Then at least it is consistent. But to say they're living in spiritual bodies now, but will receive special resurrected spiritual bodies later, makes no sense to me.

So the fleshy body did die, and its soul went to live and reign with Christ in heaven. This is those who had part in the first resurrection, and on such the second death has no power because they weren't raised up in a second resurrection from the dead (God Forbid) to stand for judgment.

Another thing to consider is Moses and Elijah who appeared with the Lord at the Transfiguration. So in what form did they appear with Jesus that the Disciples recognized them?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Humm. I understand what you are trying to say.

The question is, they went to live with the Lord without a body?

Sure, why not? John specifically said he saw the souls of the dead in Christ (Rev 6:9-11, Rev 20:4). He didn't say he saw their bodies. People are made up of body, soul and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

So you're saying the saints are living and reigning with Christ in heaven bodiless?

Sure, why not? Again, John saw their souls. Why would you try to say he saw them with bodies when he said he saw their souls? Why would he say that he saw their souls if they had bodies?

Sorry, but a spirit has a spiritual body, else it's like an invisible puff of wind, and a soul has a bodily existence in order to sit on spiritual thrones in the kingdom of heaven. Souls are not just floating smoke or a light breeze, they are substantive.

Where is your proof of this? The sitting on thrones is all symbolism. It's not talking about literal thrones. It's symbolically describing their place of authority because of being followers of Christ as His priests (Rev 1:5-6, Rev 5:9-10, Rev 20:6). You understand that the book of Revelation was purposely "signified" (Revelation 1:1) and is probably the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture, don't you? I'm not saying it's all symbolic, but I think a lot more of it is symbolic than most people realize.

Once again:

Revelation 20:4

• "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
• But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

Scripture says these dead in Christ not only lived and reigned with Christ, but that they were given thrones and sat upon them. Doesn't sound like bodiless wind to me.

Can you explain why you take that literally? Where is your evidence to show that souls have bodies and why would John say that he saw their souls in that case? How could he even see their souls if they had bodies?

That these dead lived and reigned with Christ 1000 years bodiless, while the rest of the dead didn't live doesn't ring true? How do you live and sit and reign and glorify God without some type of body? Where's the harmony?

I don't understand what you're saying at all. Did Paul not say that to be absent from the body (bodiless) is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8)? Yes, he did. So, he clearly believed that he would be present with the Lord even without a body. Why can't you believe that?

You think the Saints in heaven don't have their spiritual bodies?

Of course not! Have you never read 1 Corinthians 15? Paul very clearly taught that what we have now is "a natural body" and when it is resurrected after dying it is resurrected as "a spiritual body" (1 Cor 15:44). A natural body is corruptible and mortal, but a spiritual body is incorruptible and immortal. We are still awaiting the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ and all still waiting for our bodies to be changed to be immortal, are we not? Do you not believe that will occur at the second coming of Christ at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:22-23;50-54, 1 Thess 4:14-17)? It is not until then that we will be changed and then have a spiritual, immortal body instead of the natural, mortal body we have now.

So who are the twenty-four elders who who praise God? You think the saints are souls that are absent from their earthly body and present with the Lord as what? Puffs of Smoke? Prayers in a vial? They must have spiritual bodies wherein the live and reigned for the whole New Covenant Church period. Else they don't need bodies.

Prove what you're saying with scripture. You know me by now, don't you? You know I don't accept people just making claims without backing them up with scripture. So, where is the scriptural support for what you're saying?

In fact, some Christians believe that the resurrected body is a modified form of the body that was eaten, buried, or burned to ashes. Say what? The resurrected body is a modified form of the body that was sown or buried? I don't read that anywhere in scripture. Speculation is not evidence of anything being either true or Biblical. Keep in mind that the Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of heaven, whether adjusted, modified or customized, it makes no difference.

I don't know what you're intending to say here. When Paul said we will all be changed in relation to our bodies being changed in 1 Cor 15, what do you think that means? I believe it clearly means that our natural, corruptible, mortal bodies will be changed to spiritual, incorruptible, immortal bodies. What else can it mean?

The Spiritual body "IS" your spiritual body "wherein" you live and reign with Christ.

Where is this taught in scripture? I'm not seeing your back up what you're saying with scripture. You know you're not going to convince me of anything without doing that.

Think about this

You need to think a lot more about this. I have thought about this A TON already. Much more than you, clearly. Not trying to be offensive. It's just obviously true. So, you think about this. I already have a great deal.

, if you needed a new spiritual body to live with Christ, then how are those who died living and reigning with Christ now?

Who said we need a new spiritual body to live with Christ? Again, Paul indicated that to be absent from the body, which implies that a part of us can leave the body when it dies, is to be present with the Lord. So, that implies that a part of us besides our body can depart from the body (be absent from the body) and go to be present with the Lord. Sure, this isn't easy to grasp since it's not something we can actually observe. I'll grant that. But, it's what scripture teaches. So, I accept it. You should, too.

The only way this makes sense is if you believe the souls of those who have died are not living and reigning with Christ now.

Nonsense! That makes no sense at all. For whatever reason, you think that someone needs a body to be with Christ in heaven and, yet, scripture never teaches such a thing. You have come up with that idea on your own and not from scripture.

Then at least it is consistent. But to say they're living in spiritual bodies now, but will receive special resurrected spiritual bodies later, makes no sense to me.

Who said they have spiritual bodies now? Not me. No one will have a spiritual body until the last trumpet at Christ's return when the dead in Christ are raised and our bodies are all changed from being natural, corruptible, immortal bodies to spiritual, incorruptible and immortal bodies.

So the fleshy body did die, and its soul went to live and reign with Christ in heaven. This is those who had part in the first resurrection, and on such the second death has no power because they weren't raised up in a second resurrection from the dead (God Forbid) to stand for judgment.

Yes, their fleshy body, which Paul calls "a natural body" is dead. Nowhere does it say that they are then raised immediately with a spiritual body. Paul indicated that when a Christian dies they then will be absent from the body, but present with the Lord. To be absent from the body and present with the Lord clearly implies a part of us leaves the body and goes to be with the Lord. That's our soul and spirit. And nowhere does it indicate we need a spiritual body in order to be present with the Lord.

Another thing to consider is Moses and Elijah who appeared with the Lord at the Transfiguration. So in what form did they appear with Jesus that the Disciples recognized them?

We know that angels are spirit beings, right? Yet, God gave them the ability to appear and be seen at certain times. I'm not going to pretend as if I know exactly how that works because no one does. But, somehow, spirit beings who are normally invisible, are able to be seen in some way, shape or form. Does that mean they have bodies? If they did then why wouldn't they be seen at all times? So, I don't really know exactly how to explain that, but I don't think that can be used as evidence that dead believers have bodies. They can't possibly have the spiritual, incorruptible, immortal bodies that Paul said we will have when Christ returns at the last trumpet. I believe only Jesus has a spiritual, immortal body so far. At His coming at the last trumpet those who belong to Him will also have spiritual, immortal bodies.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You are completely carnal in your thinking , but Christians should think spiritually and not carnally (1 Corinthians 2:9-3:3).

If you mean to say that my questions are based on reason, then I accept that.

BTW, you don't understand the verses you quoted.

Name anything or anyone in heaven or on earth that Jesus does not have power and authority over.

Now, who is thinking "carnally" (your words)? Our rational questions are equally valid and worthy of consideration. Without question, Jesus reigns over his disciples. And, in some churches, Christians reign over each other. And without question, Jesus has been granted authority over all peoples and authorities. However, these fundamental truths do not contradict my initial questions.

Although Jesus has been granted authority over all peoples and spiritual authorities, we do not yet see him ruling over them. Why is that?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Agreed. He is spiritually blind. He has no understanding of how spiritual kingdom works. Moving on.

Is it your intent to close another thread after hundreds of insults? I hope not. Why not attempt to engage the questions? Those who claim to have spiritual insight should know why Jesus has been granted all authority even though his authority is not yet being enforced.

 

[CadyandZoe]

He never will.

You are mistaken. Does Psalm 2 apply to Jesus? I think it does. Psalm 2:6 is yet to be fulfilled.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Amils don't understand that neither Jesus nor we reign at the moment. Look out the window.

Exactly, they ignore the obvious in order to promote the ridiculous. It is obvious that the Kingdoms of this present evil world are not serving Christ, neither are the saints reigning over the Kingdoms of this present evil world.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Premils won't understand the amil view until they understand that the thousand-year reigning has nothing to do with the thousand-year binding. They have nothing to do with each other.

The cross and resurrection is the reason for both the thousand-year reigning and the thousand-year binding, but the thousand-year binding isn't the cause of the thousand -year reigning.

We reign because Jesus is God we don't reign because satan is bound.

Thats why Revelation chapter 20 shows us that satan in bound until he is released and that we reign until the end of our world at the Great White Throne Judgment day.

Of course not. But Satan is bound at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom. And then loosed at the end of the Millennial Kingdom. Trhey simply are two events that take place at the same time. There is lots of hypotheses for why, but they are not spoken directly in Scripture so I shall not speak of them wither.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Those who claim to have spiritual insight should know why Jesus has been granted all authority even though his authority is not yet being enforced.

Which only proves it is NOT to be taken literally because the dispensation of the Kingdom started with John's announcement of the coming Christ and was realized in His life, death and resurrection.

Luke 16:16

• "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."

When Christ bound Satan so that He might spoil his house (world) and build again His church/assembly where He as the chief corner stone of it, that began the dispensation of His kingdom where he NOW rules! That is the restoration, the rebuilding, with the corner Stone and Temple that the Jews rejected and destroyed. Far from proving it is literally 1000 years and happening in the future, the dispensation of the kingdom of God disproves this theory and illustrates the Millennial reign of Christ started at the cross and ends when all Elect Christ has planned to spoil as been spoiled, before Satan will be loosed again. It all started when Christ went to the Cross and Satan has been casted out of the kingdom of Heaven:

Revelation 12:10

• "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

Not in the future, else we are NOT saved! Christ has already established a kingdom THROUGH HIS PEOPLE, the church on Earth, where they can proclaim salvation gospel to spoil people from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of God. Salvation is now. It is NOT possible without Christ sit on the throne ruling in His kingdom! He is the reign Christ in His kingdom ever since the Cross. Right now. Not wait until "his authority will be enforced" so when you look out of the window expecting the gas price will be much lower, the police force to disbanded because there won't be any crimes, and there is a world peace on Earth. No, people like you will NOT believe it even if we preach the kingdom of God, just like the carnal Jews of Christ's day:

John 10:24-31

• "Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
• Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
• But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
• My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
• And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
• My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
• I and my Father are one.
• Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him."

The reason is unbelief. So perhaps the problem with man is that he thinks Christ got the authority but not yet rule until later. You are wrong. God is indeed on the throne and His rule has been in force through the Church! Spiritual discerned!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Who said we need a new spiritual body to live with Christ?

I will response later as I need to go to work.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Exactly, they ignore the obvious in order to promote the ridiculous. It is obvious that the Kingdoms of this present evil world are not serving Christ, neither are the saints reigning over the Kingdoms of this present evil world.

You missed the point.

Matthew 12:28-29

• "But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
• Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house."

Christ is the one that came to bind the strong man, Satan. We were the spoil that Christ seized from Satan by right of conquest. That is without question the meaning. The bigger point for you here is that Christ says, Satan had to be bound First, and then only could one spoil his house. So then, before Christ could set us free, Satan had to be bound. And if that is all true, the Kingdom of God had come and the saints reign in it as Kings and Priests unto God. It was because of this action of Christ. Meaning Revelation's illustration of the Kingdom of God coming and Saints reigning after Satan was bound, is illustrated in this parable. Satan was bound by Christ in order for Him to be able to seize those satan held in bondage (his prisoners, Christ's spoil). Thus this messenger of Revelation 20 "IS" the Messenger of the Covenant (Malachi 3:1) and not an angel.

The saints reign in the SPIRITUAL kingdom (aka church) while the evil is STILL going in the world. This is why Christ said we shall have tribulation in the world! Satan was not bound for China nor the United States so that the gas price will be lower. No, Satan was bound FOR THE SAKE of the Elect who have been spoiled by Christ through the preaching of the gospel! Because of your carnal mind you are expecting a literal kingdom of God so that the kingdom of evil will be done with.