The Rapture Cover-up

[David in NJ]

I won't drop it. I can see he's a buddy of yours, so you're trying to defend your buddy. But, you can't tell me what to do. It REALLY did call for it. He thinks he is proving something by just making one liner claims without backing them up with scripture. And he's misrepresenting and mocking amil without even really understanding what we believe. That is pure nonsense and I will not say otherwise. He needs to start backing up his claims with scripture.


And I am rebuking him for his nonsense.


I don't need a lecture from you. There is such thing as tough love. He needs to understand that he can't make all these claims that he does without backing them up with scripture and showing exactly how he is coming to his conclusions. There's nothing that says we can't rebuke fellow Christians when they are acting foolishly and should know better. We don't need to treat each other with kid gloves when someone is in the wrong.


1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

He sins by mocking post-trib and amil beliefs and misrepresenting our beliefs, so I will continue to rebuke him when he does that. And it's wrong to claim that scripture teaches something without actually showing it, too. That is unacceptable.

I won't drop it. I can see he's a buddy of yours, so you're trying to defend your buddy.

The LORD shed His Blood on the Cross for you, me and @rebuilder 454
Of which, all 3 of us have BELIEVED unto Salvation.
Therefore, we are Brethren

I don't need a lecture from you.

i charge for 'lectures', you have not been billed, so no lecture was given.

There is such thing as tough love

And there is that unwordly thing that our LORD Jesus Christ commanded us -

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” - John ch13

 

[David in NJ]

I won't drop it. I can see he's a buddy of yours, so you're trying to defend your buddy. But, you can't tell me what to do. It REALLY did call for it. He thinks he is proving something by just making one liner claims without backing them up with scripture. And he's misrepresenting and mocking amil without even really understanding what we believe. That is pure nonsense and I will not say otherwise. He needs to start backing up his claims with scripture.


And I am rebuking him for his nonsense.


I don't need a lecture from you. There is such thing as tough love. He needs to understand that he can't make all these claims that he does without backing them up with scripture and showing exactly how he is coming to his conclusions. There's nothing that says we can't rebuke fellow Christians when they are acting foolishly and should know better. We don't need to treat each other with kid gloves when someone is in the wrong.


1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

He sins by mocking post-trib and amil beliefs and misrepresenting our beliefs, so I will continue to rebuke him when he does that. And it's wrong to claim that scripture teaches something without actually showing it, too. That is unacceptable.

P.S. - @rebuilder 454 and i have never met personally.

He lives in Texas and i live in NJ - not a short drive.................and i have never been to Texas!!!

 

[IndianaRob]

Can you point out where Paul is in this rapture verses/passage? Matthew chapter 24

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

That’s another assumption. You’re assuming the second coming is attached to the “rapture”.

Since he was alive at the time, he included himself among those who are alive and remain. There's no reason to read anything into that as if he was claiming that he would be alive when Jesus came. He didn't know when Jesus was coming because no one knew the day or hour of His coming (Matt 24:36, Matt 25:13). And he clearly indicated that all believers, including all of the dead in Christ and all who are alive and remain when He comes, would be caught up to meet the Lord in the air at the same time, which you deny. That has clearly not happened yet.

What Paul was talking about isn’t related to the second coming at all and that’s why Paul did include himself.

You’ve already made up your mind that Paul is talking about the rapture so there’s no way you can let the passage just say what it is.

 

[MA2444]

You're definitely familiar with these verses:

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Th 4:15-17

I see where the Lord is descending... and where the resurrected are meeting Him... on His way down. It doesn't say He hangs a U-turn and goes back up. So I think one can reasonably interpret these verses to mean that "we rapture up into the air and then come right back down again with Jesus."

That isn't the only possibly interpretation, but it doesn't seem out-of-pocket to read it that way.

Perhaps. But I have this crazy notion that the Lord loves us so much that He is willing to make a special trip for us. When He left, He said, I go to prepare a place for you. Isaiah prophesied about it.

Isaiah 26:20-21
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain..../KJV

That is a great Tribulation prophecy. Since we are not subject to Gods Wrath (Rev 3:10, 1 Thessalonians 5:9) then the Lord has a hiding place for us to be at while He is busy punishing the earth with the Great Tribulation.

WHere is this place that we will hide at? Well Jesus said that, I go to prepare a place for you.... So this must be it! Yeah. It fits. We get Raptured out of here and are taken away to heaven and to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. WHile the earth is in the Great Tribulation, we will be at the biggest BBQ that the Universe has ever seen before!

Then when He returns (again) to the earth, He comes to the ground, and He brngs His Saints with Him! He destroys them with the brightness of His coming and then goes to Mt of Olives and then sets up His Millenial Reign.
That's how I understand it.

 

[Wick Stick]

That's how I understand it.

That's how I grew up understanding it, too. I don't any more. But sometimes I wish I still could... it certainly has appeal.

 

[MA2444]

It's easy to get the two times more that Jesus comes confused into thinking it is one trip when it really is two trips. Once He comes in the air for His people. After that He comes to the earth with His people.

Truth does not feed egos or care if someone believes incorrectly for it still the truth.

If Jesus didnt come for His people until after the rapture, then the verse in Matthew 24:44 (MA2444) would not be in the bible. Why does it tell us to always be ready at any moment? If we have to wait until after the GT then we dont need no steenking warnings! Lol! It would say if you live....
Come on. It's fairly simple once you get it.

The bride of Christ doesnt have to be subjected to great tribulation or the wrath of God. Maybe that's how you treat your Fiance but it's not how Jesus would treat His Fiance! Geez, People....the GT is about Unbelievers to punish them. Israel to force them to acknowledge Him as the Messiah!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The LORD shed His Blood on the Cross for you, me and @rebuilder 454
Of which, all 3 of us have BELIEVED unto Salvation.
Therefore, we are Brethren

Yep. And brethren can rebuke brethren.

i charge for 'lectures', you have not been billed, so no lecture was given.


And there is that unwordly thing that our LORD Jesus Christ commanded us -

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” - John ch13

Can we only love each other by patting each other on the back and singing Kumbaya together?

Proverbs 27:5 Open rebuke is better than secret love.

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Not sure why that's relevant. The "soul" in Hebrew means "life" or "whole being" - never "disembodied ghost that flies off at death".

It is very relevant. To use your words, when a person dies, their bodies goes to the grave but their soul and spirit go to be with teh Lord if saved or to the place of torments if they are not saved.

That is why there are two resurrections surrounding the Millennial Kingdom. One for the saved at the beginning and one for the lost after the Kingdom when soul spirit and body are all reunited.

The church is not part of this as we are raptured before the 70th week of Daniel begins.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Exactly! That’s why I called this thread the rapture cover up. The doctrine that Paul is teaching that is wrongly called “the rapture” is really giving the details about the believer’s translation to heaven.

This is why Paul said “Then WE which are alive and remain”, meaning Paul is part of the group that will be translated like Enoch.

But Paul was not raptured or caught up. the great catching up aka the rapture has not occurred yet so no NT believers have been translated like Enoch yet.

 

[IndianaRob]

Perhaps. But I have this crazy notion that the Lord loves us so much that He is willing to make a special trip for us. When He left, He said, I go to prepare a place for you. Isaiah prophesied about it.

Isaiah 26:20-21
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain..../KJV

That is a great Tribulation prophecy. Since we are not subject to Gods Wrath (Rev 3:10, 1 Thessalonians 5:9) then the Lord has a hiding place for us to be at while He is busy punishing the earth with the Great Tribulation.

WHere is this place that we will hide at? Well Jesus said that, I go to prepare a place for you.... So this must be it! Yeah. It fits. We get Raptured out of here and are taken away to heaven and to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. WHile the earth is in the Great Tribulation, we will be at the biggest BBQ that the Universe has ever seen before!

Then when He returns (again) to the earth, He comes to the ground, and He brngs His Saints with Him! He destroys them with the brightness of His coming and then goes to Mt of Olives and then sets up His Millenial Reign.
That's how I understand it.

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Was the place prepared at the crucifixtion?
When Jesus said “I will come again” was he talking about the resurrection or 2000 years down the road?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That’s another assumption. You’re assuming the second coming is attached to the “rapture”.

It's not an assumption. Just read the text and it's clear as can be that the rapture occurs at His second coming. It's not up for debate.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What Paul was talking about isn’t related to the second coming at all and that’s why Paul did include himself.

LOL. Ridiculous. How can "the coming of the Lord" not be the second coming? Give me a break with this nonsense.

You’ve already made up your mind that Paul is talking about the rapture so there’s no way you can let the passage just say what it is.

I am letting it say what it is. It's referring to "the coming of the Lord" when He descends from heaven. If that isn't the second coming then I don't know what is.

 

[David in NJ]

That’s another assumption. You’re assuming the second coming is attached to the “rapture”.

What Paul was talking about isn’t related to the second coming at all and that’s why Paul did include himself.

You’ve already made up your mind that Paul is talking about the rapture so there’s no way you can let the passage just say what it is.

You’re assuming the second coming is attached to the “rapture”.

Nope - you have it backwards.

The Resurrection and subsequent Rapture is attached to the Second Coming of the LORD.

What Paul was talking about isn’t related to the second coming at all and that’s why Paul did include himself.

The LORD Jesus Christ attached the Resurrection and Rapture to HIMSELF.

John 6:43
Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur(IndianaRob) among yourselves.
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you(IndianaRob) believe this?”

What Paul was talking about isn’t related to the second coming at all and that’s why Paul did include himself.

There is only one Second Coming of Christ and that is EXACTLY what the LORD and the Apostle.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.

After that, we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[David in NJ]

Yep. And brethren can rebuke brethren.


Can we only love each other by patting each other on the back and singing Kumbaya together?

Proverbs 27:5 Open rebuke is better than secret love.

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Can we only love each other by patting each other on the back and singing Kumbaya together?

LOL x100 and i AGREE

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

True, but you better make 1000% sure that you are being directed by the Lord to do so otherwise................judgment on YOU!!!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Was the place prepared at the crucifixtion?
When Jesus said “I will come again” was he talking about the resurrection or 2000 years down the road?

Not at the crucifixion and Jesus hasn't descended into the atmosphere to catch His bride up to be with HIm yet. He is still preparing a place for the church and the church alone-those saved from Pentecost until the rapture or great snatching up.

When one studies the relationship of Jesus and the church, it mirrors perfectly the Jewish wedding system at the time Jesus walked the earth.

1.Father of groom agrees to the bride (the church)
2. Bride price is paid (Jesus blood)
3. Groom returns to His fathers house to make a place for Him and His bride
4. Father approves room and tells son to fetch his bride.
5. Groom returns and grabs bride (the rapture)
6. Wedding ceremony takes place ( in heaven Rev. 19) in front of but a few witnesses
7. Then a grand "parade" to celebrate the marriage supper (Jesus return to earth with His new bride)

 

[IndianaRob]

But Paul was not raptured or caught up. the great catching up aka the rapture has not occurred yet so no NT believers have been translated like Enoch yet.

How do you think the believer leaves this world, do you believe someone comes to get us? Jesus or maybe angels? Just asking to see what your thoughts on it are.

We do know that before anybody laid hands on Stephen, the heavens opened up and Stephen saw Jesus sitting at the right of the father. We can’t say for certain but I think it’s likely Jesus came for Stephen.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Nope - you have it backwards.

The Resurrection and subsequent Rapture is attached to the Second Coming of the LORD.

This is incorrect. The rapture is not attached in any way to th ephysical return of Jesus. It is its own separate event. We must remember that the church is resurrected (bodies) at the rapture. Thena fter Jesus returns and is ready to set up his kingdom, there is the resurrection of OT and Trib saints. After the Millennial Kingdom there is another resurrection and that is for all the lost.

 

[IndianaRob]

It's not an assumption. Just read the text and it's clear as can be that the rapture occurs at His second coming. It's not up for debate.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


LOL. Ridiculous. How can "the coming of the Lord" not be the second coming? Give me a break with this nonsense.


I am letting it say what it is. It's referring to "the coming of the Lord" when He descends from heaven. If that isn't the second coming then I don't know what is.

Did Jesus not come to you at salvation? Does Jesus not come for us at our death?

No point in going on with this, you have your view and I have mine that’s just the way it is.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

How do you think the believer leaves this world, do you believe someone comes to get us? Jesus or maybe angels? Just asking to see what your thoughts on it are.

We do know that before anybody laid hands on Stephen, the heavens opened up and Stephen saw Jesus sitting at the right of the father. We can’t say for certain but I think it’s likely Jesus came for Stephen.

Stephen was stoned and physically died. Paul was either beheaded or shot with arrows at the Malm Ateen prison. Believers since the birth of the church have physically died and their bodies went into the grave while their souls and spirits went home to be with the Lord.

When a believer dies our "ghosts" so to speak go to be with teh Lord while our bodies go to ground and rot. At the rapture in the future all church members will be reunited with their bodies which will have been glorified.

 

[David in NJ]

This is incorrect. The rapture is not attached in any way to th ephysical return of Jesus. It is its own separate event. We must remember that the church is resurrected (bodies) at the rapture. Thena fter Jesus returns and is ready to set up his kingdom, there is the resurrection of OT and Trib saints. After the Millennial Kingdom there is another resurrection and that is for all the lost.

Please read carefully 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Shalom

 

[David in NJ]

Did Jesus not come to you at salvation? Does Jesus not come for us at our death?

No point in going on with this, you have your view and I have mine that’s just the way it is.

The Lord Jesus Christ has already raised me up in Newness of Life when i was Born-Again by the Spirit of God.

Where does your physical/flesh body go when you die?