Are Mormons Christians? (Latter Day Saints)

[Marymog]

Do you praise God with that mouth (and pen/type) that pours constant vitriol to sons and daughter's of God? Asking for a friend.

Hmmmm.....sooooo let me see if I have your condescending bizarre question correct.

Another member on this DEBATE page told me that my argument is very off topic. My answer was Who are you to decide what "topic" I am to debate on the DEBATE FORUM? It seems you are ok with someone telling you what topic you can debate on a debate forum.....I'm not ok with that.

And you have turned my response, which was a logical and factual response, into "vitriol"........

 

[Marymog]

See post #475.

Mary, at this point, I think we've exhausted the conversation. You believe one can lose their salvation over doctrine. I do not. And it makes perfect sense. You are, as always, willfully ignorant.

Do you believe Jesus has more Grace than you and me?

Wow.....You got me there. I believe that one can lose their salvation over doctrine: 2 Peter 3:16, 2 Timothy 2:25, 1 Timothy 4:16, 2 Timothy 3:14-17, Titus 1:9

I believe Scripture. You don't. Enough said.

Yes, Jesus has more grace than you and me. But those who violate Scripture lose that grace....Just like Scripture says.

Mary

 

[Wrangler]

It seems you are ok with someone telling you what topic you can debate on a debate forum.

A little grace and discernment would go a long way.

There is a debate forum that contains many threads. The reason it is called a ‘thread’ is because it is about a train of thought, a thread of analysis of a topic. If this were a sports forum there might be debate ‘threads’ for each sport. Then for each sporting event.

For instance, in tennis, my main man is Novak Djokovic. I’ve followed his career from the beginning. A few weeks ago he won a dramatic victory for Olympic gold against the #1 ranked player in the world. This man, Alcaraz, is the most talented player I have seen in nearly half a century of being a fan.

It is not WHO but WHAT. If a thread were to debate the Gold Medal match, it would be off topic to discuss last years World Cup in soccer.

That’s kind of what you are doing when this thread is about LDS and you write post after post debating gay marriage and abortion, which have nothing to do with LDS topic in the OP.

IF you want to debate churches that support gay marriage and abortion, feel free to start a new thread. They’re free!

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Your side stepping of the question is highly revealing.

You use names like they are tags instead of titles. And with this cleverly sounding system of theology, Mormons have created a different religion and God. They are not the same.

It's not a theology test. It's a difference of gods we worship. Yours just wants the appearance of ours. But they are vastly different. Your words are homiphones for the ones we use. You say the same ones but mean completely different things by them than we do.

And that is why Mormons are not Christians. Different Messiah and different God.

I also noticed how you completely refused to answer my question.

IF you choose to deny my faith in Christ and standing as a Christian, heck you can believe whatever you want. I passionately disagree with that assessment, obviously.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Yes, the LDS church is Protestant. That is unless you DON'T deny the universal authority of The Pope: Definition of PROTESTANT

I have respect for but disagree with some LDS doctrine. I already know they don't condone abortion or perform gay marriages.

Who are you to decide what "topic" I am to debate on the DEBATE FORUM?

The definition of "Protestant" is not "not Catholic" or "not pope pope followers".

With all possible respect, if you want to argue with Wrangler about gay marraiage and abortion, that has nothing to do with this "Are Mormons Christians" thread. It would be better all around to have the gay marriage discussion on a different thread.

 

[JohnDB]

I also noticed how you completely refused to answer my question.

IF you choose to deny my faith in Christ and standing as a Christian, heck you can believe whatever you want. I passionately disagree with that assessment, obviously.

Because you dodged mine by something that sounds like the truth but is not.

God, through the agency of Jesus, created ALL. That doesn't mean God is the father of all. (John 1)

Jesus told the Pharisees that they had Satan as their father instead of Abraham. And yet....
Abraham was indeed their forefather for they were Jewish.

I am aware of all the semantic games....you may not realize you are spouting them but...it doesn't lessen my knowledge of them.

 

[Super Kal]

I consider you to be a fellow Christian because we both believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, Savior of the world. I know that I gave my entire self to Him- He is my King and my rock. He pulled me out of the darkness when this world's terribleness made we wish for death. He is my SAVOIR. I presume that you likewise have a loving relationship with Him. Yes, there's disagreements on some things like the nature of man, but by no means would I ever deny your love of Christ and desire to follow Him.

Now, I believe that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ. And that's the only way. Real faith that transforms a sinful wretch into a disciple of Christ- the Biblical definition of a Christian. A person cannot save themselves-- such is a downright laughable impossibility. Even as we strive to follow Christ, we are each still flawed clay in the potter's hands. Saintification is a lifetime+ process.


How do you believe a person is saved? Is it via faith in Christ? Or is it dependent on a man's ability to perfectly ace a theology test?

"we both believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, Savior of the world"
No we don't. That was the entire point I was making with post #450...
The God that you serve is not the same God that I serve.

Mormonism teaches that God was once a man who attained Godhood.
Biblical Christianity teaches that the Father has always been God, has never been a man.

Mormonism teaches that there are an infinite number of universes and an infinite number of gods.
Biblical Christianity teaches that there is only one universe, and there is only one God.

Mormonism teaches that, just like Elohim, we, us humans, can attain Godhood status.
Biblical Christianity says that man can never become a god like the father, and that there is only one God, the Father, with the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Triune Godhead

And Mormonism does not teach that it is through strictly faith in Jesus Christ to be saved. The book Doctrines and Covenants, which was affirmed to have the same authority as the scriptures by the Mormon church, says that in order for us some one to be saved they have to have a "celestial marriage". This marriage was deemed to be performed by God and

necessary for entrance into the highest levels of exaltation and godhood.

D&C 132:15-20
The doctrine further states that this marriage will endure for an eternity if both partners live properly.

Not only that, but Mormonism also teaches and encourages polygamy:

- Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132, verses 1, 39
“... if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouses the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then he is justified.”

- Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132, verse 61
“Some of the nations of Europe who believe in the one wife system have actually forbidden a plurality of wives by their laws; and the consequences are that the whole country among them is overrun with the most abominable practices: adulteries and unlawful connections through all their villages, towns, cities, and country places to a most fearful extent.”

Mormonism also continues with the practice of ordaining people as apostles... the reason the 12 Apostles were called Apostles was because they were directly taught by Jesus himself. Those in the Mormon church who are labeled as Apostles have not directly studied under Jesus in the physical manner, and yet here's what they have to say about polygamy:

- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 12
“This law of monogamy, or the monogamic system, laid the foundation for prostitution and the evils and diseases of the most revolting nature and character under which modern Christendom groans…”

- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 195
“Verily, I say unto you, that the wisdom of man, in his fallen state, knoweth not the purposes and the privileges of my hold priesthood, but ye shall know when ye receive a fullness by reason of the anointing: For it is my will, that in time, ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites, that their posterity may become white, delightsome and just, for even now their females are more virtuous then the gentiles.”

This is not a joke.im not just pulling things out of my butt just to cause problems... these are the things that Mormonism actually teaches, And these teachings are what change Mormonism to be something completely different from Christianity, and it makes it the exact opposite of Christianity... this is not simply unorthodoxy, this is heterodoxy.

In the early 19 century, it is said that Joseph Smith was given golden tablets, which allegedly tied all of these things come up by an angel named Moroni. The Apostle Paul, who did see Christ in the clouds, who was made blinded by Christ, said that if any man, if any angel, comes to you and preaches a gospel that is different from the ones that we have taught, let him be accursed, that's Galatians 1:6-9

That's why I call the Mormon church a cult. That is why I call Mormons heretics. They teach a completely different gospel. Do not follow the same Jesus Christ that the Apostles walked, talked, and ate with, they do not follow the same God that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob followed.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

"we both believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, Savior of the world"
No we don't. That was the entire point I was making with post #450...
The God that you serve is not the same God that I serve.

Mormonism teaches that God was once a man who attained Godhood.
Biblical Christianity teaches that the Father has always been God, has never been a man.

Mormonism teaches that there are an infinite number of universes and an infinite number of gods.
Biblical Christianity teaches that there is only one universe, and there is only one God.

Mormonism teaches that, just like Elohim, we, us humans, can attain Godhood status.
Biblical Christianity says that man can never become a god like the father, and that there is only one God, the Father, with the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Triune Godhead

And Mormonism does not teach that it is through strictly faith in Jesus Christ to be saved. The book Doctrines and Covenants, which was affirmed to have the same authority as the scriptures by the Mormon church, says that in order for us some one to be saved they have to have a "celestial marriage". This marriage was deemed to be performed by God and

D&C 132:15-20
The doctrine further states that this marriage will endure for an eternity if both partners live properly.

Not only that, but Mormonism also teaches and encourages polygamy:

- Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132, verses 1, 39
“... if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouses the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then he is justified.”

- Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132, verse 61
“Some of the nations of Europe who believe in the one wife system have actually forbidden a plurality of wives by their laws; and the consequences are that the whole country among them is overrun with the most abominable practices: adulteries and unlawful connections through all their villages, towns, cities, and country places to a most fearful extent.”

Mormonism also continues with the practice of ordaining people as apostles... the reason the 12 Apostles were called Apostles was because they were directly taught by Jesus himself. Those in the Mormon church who are labeled as Apostles have not directly studied under Jesus in the physical manner, and yet here's what they have to say about polygamy:

- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 12
“This law of monogamy, or the monogamic system, laid the foundation for prostitution and the evils and diseases of the most revolting nature and character under which modern Christendom groans…”

- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 195
“Verily, I say unto you, that the wisdom of man, in his fallen state, knoweth not the purposes and the privileges of my hold priesthood, but ye shall know when ye receive a fullness by reason of the anointing: For it is my will, that in time, ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites, that their posterity may become white, delightsome and just, for even now their females are more virtuous then the gentiles.”

This is not a joke.im not just pulling things out of my butt just to cause problems... these are the things that Mormonism actually teaches, And these teachings are what change Mormonism to be something completely different from Christianity, and it makes it the exact opposite of Christianity... this is not simply unorthodoxy, this is heterodoxy.

In the early 19 century, it is said that Joseph Smith was given golden tablets, which allegedly tied all of these things come up by an angel named Moroni. The Apostle Paul, who did see Christ in the clouds, who was made blinded by Christ, said that if any man, if any angel, comes to you and preaches a gospel that is different from the ones that we have taught, let him be accursed, that's Galatians 1:6-9

That's why I call the Mormon church a cult. That is why I call Mormons heretics. They teach a completely different gospel. Do not follow the same Jesus Christ that the Apostles walked, talked, and ate with, they do not follow the same God that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob followed.

You got things partially correct, partially not.

If you ant to deny my relationship with Christ and faith in Him, you can believe that / do whatever you do. Doesn't phase me one bit.

 

[Wrangler]

"we both believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, Savior of the world"
No we don't.

The rest of your post was quite the critique. However, I saw not a word about this start, which admits Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is a part of the LDS religion. What say you sir about that commonality?

 

[MatthewG]

"we both believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, Savior of the world"
No we don't. That was the entire point I was making with post #450...
The God that you serve is not the same God that I serve.

Mormonism teaches that God was once a man who attained Godhood.
Biblical Christianity teaches that the Father has always been God, has never been a man.

Mormonism teaches that there are an infinite number of universes and an infinite number of gods.
Biblical Christianity teaches that there is only one universe, and there is only one God.

Mormonism teaches that, just like Elohim, we, us humans, can attain Godhood status.
Biblical Christianity says that man can never become a god like the father, and that there is only one God, the Father, with the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Triune Godhead

And Mormonism does not teach that it is through strictly faith in Jesus Christ to be saved. The book Doctrines and Covenants, which was affirmed to have the same authority as the scriptures by the Mormon church, says that in order for us some one to be saved they have to have a "celestial marriage". This marriage was deemed to be performed by God and

D&C 132:15-20
The doctrine further states that this marriage will endure for an eternity if both partners live properly.

Not only that, but Mormonism also teaches and encourages polygamy:

- Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132, verses 1, 39
“... if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouses the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then he is justified.”

- Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132, verse 61
“Some of the nations of Europe who believe in the one wife system have actually forbidden a plurality of wives by their laws; and the consequences are that the whole country among them is overrun with the most abominable practices: adulteries and unlawful connections through all their villages, towns, cities, and country places to a most fearful extent.”

Mormonism also continues with the practice of ordaining people as apostles... the reason the 12 Apostles were called Apostles was because they were directly taught by Jesus himself. Those in the Mormon church who are labeled as Apostles have not directly studied under Jesus in the physical manner, and yet here's what they have to say about polygamy:

- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 12
“This law of monogamy, or the monogamic system, laid the foundation for prostitution and the evils and diseases of the most revolting nature and character under which modern Christendom groans…”

- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 195
“Verily, I say unto you, that the wisdom of man, in his fallen state, knoweth not the purposes and the privileges of my hold priesthood, but ye shall know when ye receive a fullness by reason of the anointing: For it is my will, that in time, ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites, that their posterity may become white, delightsome and just, for even now their females are more virtuous then the gentiles.”

This is not a joke.im not just pulling things out of my butt just to cause problems... these are the things that Mormonism actually teaches, And these teachings are what change Mormonism to be something completely different from Christianity, and it makes it the exact opposite of Christianity... this is not simply unorthodoxy, this is heterodoxy.

In the early 19 century, it is said that Joseph Smith was given golden tablets, which allegedly tied all of these things come up by an angel named Moroni. The Apostle Paul, who did see Christ in the clouds, who was made blinded by Christ, said that if any man, if any angel, comes to you and preaches a gospel that is different from the ones that we have taught, let him be accursed, that's Galatians 1:6-9

That's why I call the Mormon church a cult. That is why I call Mormons heretics. They teach a completely different gospel. Do not follow the same Jesus Christ that the Apostles walked, talked, and ate with, they do not follow the same God that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob followed.

Yes, the organization still teaches polygamy and other things etc… but they do teach and believe in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus. So saying no here is kind of redundant.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I don't follow theologians or man, I do follow Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Holy Bible.

Just to be clear: I never said that you follow theologians or man. Rather, I happily acknowledge you love of Jesus & the Bible, and giving your self to follow Him.

Do you believe the Holy Bible is not correct and needed to be changed/modified/updated by one man and that one man's "vision"? Even if it contradicts with the scriptures?

I totally believe that the Bible is the scripture, the word of God. But I don't believe that God's words are limited just to the Bible. God still lives, He still speaks, never changing. My love of Christ is anchored in Christ and listening to Him via the Holy Spirit. And of course tons and tons of scripture reading and studying. I do believe that other folks can be servants of God, just like in old times, which is great but doesn't replace Christ the rock.

 

[Super Kal]

the Mormon Jesus vs the Biblical Jesus

 

[Wrangler]

I totally believe that the Bible is the scripture, the word of God. But I don't believe that God's words are limited just to the Bible. God still lives, He still speaks, never changing. My love of Christ is anchored in Christ and listening to Him via the Holy Spirit. And of course tons and tons of scripture reading and studying. I do believe that other folks can be servants of God, just like in old times, which is great but doesn't replace Christ the rock.

It's not that I wish you were less in the minority. It's that I wish the majority here did not take it on themselves to relentlessly bash certain denominations. According to this site, your denomination is the 4th largest in the US. (As opposed to denying it is a Christian denomination at all.) Opinion v Fact.

1. The Catholic Church
2. The Southern Baptist Convention
3. The United Methodist Church
4. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
5. The Church of God in Christ
6. National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc.
7. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
8. National Baptist Convention of America
9. Presbyterian Church (USA)
10. Assemblies of God
11. African Methodist Episcopal Church
12. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America
13. Progressive National Baptist Convention, Inc.
14.The Lutheran Church — Missouri Synod (LCMS)
15. Episcopal Church
16. Churches of Christ
17. Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
18. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World
19. The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church
20. American Baptist Churches in the USA
21. United Church of Christ
22. Baptist Bible Fellowship International
23. Christian Churches and Churches of Christ
24. The Orthodox Church in America
25. Jehovah's Witnesses

 

[Jane_Doe22]

the Mormon Jesus vs the Biblical Jesus

Rather: instead of actually talking about Christ with someone, you're posting a YT example of a Christian getting his facts wrong about what other people believe and then using that false information to deny other folks love of Christ.

I'm sorry, but I got zero patience for such sinful behavior like in this video. No Christian, no matter the denomination, needs to bear false witness about what other people believe. It's pure junk.

 

[TheOneHeLoves]

Just to be clear: I never said that you follow theologians or man. Rather, I happily acknowledge you love of Jesus & the Bible, and giving your self to follow Him.


I totally believe that the Bible is the scripture, the word of God. But I don't believe that God's words are limited just to the Bible. God still lives, He still speaks, never changing. My love of Christ is anchored in Christ and listening to Him via the Holy Spirit. And of course tons and tons of scripture reading and studying. I do believe that other folks can be servants of God, just like in old times, which is great but doesn't replace Christ the rock.

I was only giving my view and honestly trying to have a civil conversation. ( i am not attacking you but truly clearing up what you believe vs my belief).

I 100% believe God is living and has no end and He never changes. Having said that, all that is spoken today must align with scripture/character/standards of God. Jesus himself did not change the law, He fulfilled it on our behalf.

 

[TheOneHeLoves]

It's not that I wish you were less in the minority. It's that I wish the majority here did not take it on themselves to relentlessly bash certain denominations. According to this site, your denomination is the 4th largest in the US. (As opposed to denying it is a Christian denomination at all.) Opinion v Fact.

1. The Catholic Church
2. The Southern Baptist Convention
3. The United Methodist Church
4. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
5. The Church of God in Christ
6. National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc.
7. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
8. National Baptist Convention of America
9. Presbyterian Church (USA)
10. Assemblies of God
11. African Methodist Episcopal Church
12. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America
13. Progressive National Baptist Convention, Inc.
14.The Lutheran Church — Missouri Synod (LCMS)
15. Episcopal Church
16. Churches of Christ
17. Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
18. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World
19. The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church
20. American Baptist Churches in the USA
21. United Church of Christ
22. Baptist Bible Fellowship International
23. Christian Churches and Churches of Christ
24. The Orthodox Church in America
25. Jehovah's Witnesses

the problem is there are not denominations in scripture. We either believe in Jesus as all that He says He is, trust in Him, make Him your Lord and He becomes your Savior.

And as far as scripture, the narrow road leads to Heaven and the wide road leads to destruction/Hell.


Who you say and believe Jesus is the key.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I was only giving my view and honestly trying to have a civil conversation. ( i am not attacking you but truly clearing up what you believe vs my belief).

I 100% believe God is living and has no end and He never changes. Having said that, all that is spoken today must align with scripture/character/standards of God. Jesus himself did not change the law, He fulfilled it on our behalf.

I do thank you for your civility. It is extremely appreciated. Also 100% agreed on Jesus doesn’t change.

One of the actual differences between Protestants and LDS Christians is that Protestants have a closed canon (no more scripture or similar revelation) vs LDS Christians believe in open canon (scripture/ revelation still comes and we are still learning more of God’s wonders).

 

[JohnDB]

But I don't believe that God's words are limited just to the Bible

And there lies the red line you cannot cross.

You have added to and therefore subtracted what has been said by God.

The Bible had been complete for thousands of years when Joseph Smith added to it. Signed sealed and delivered.

What had fundamentally changed?

In EVERY time past when God spoke or needed a message to be sent something fundamental had changed. God is immutable, imminent, and omnipotent as well as omniscient.

Meaning God has acted already yesterday with full knowledge of today and with an efficiency we cannot duplicate. But somehow God needed two more messages to be delivered outside of the means He already has had at his disposal?

What about during the times there was a famine of God's word? When Luther discovered an unused but chained book in the watchtower?

Or when the Psalter and Book of Prayers was used in stead of scriptures?
Or
When just sections were used such as in the Evangelion.

Or during the several inquisition especially the Spanish inquisition. Or during the Rennaissance?

The Children's Brigade?

The timing of this "new revelation" is suspect. So is the messenger. So is his message. There's absolutely nothing that is in keeping with God's methodology, character, or previous messages.

 

[MatthewG]

the Mormon Jesus vs the Biblical Jesus

People can be confused and believe Satan is Jesus brother but come to revelation of the Lord Yeshua and his death, burial, and resurrection and become a Christian saved to the kingdom. Don’t know if your young college student or what?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

And there lies the red line you cannot cross.

You have added to and therefore subtracted what has been said by God.

Yep, because the Bible just clearly states "And to enter the Pearly Gates you must believe that God's words are confined to these books of the Protestant Bible and then He shut up! Your salvation depends on you professing this!".

<end sarcasm>. Obviously the Bible doesn't say that. And then I watch Protestants adding a bunch of other stuff to the Bible, reciting man-written Creeds, etc. You of course can believe whatever you want-- totally respect your right there and I'm not going to deny your relationship with Christ But I do passionately disagree with your stance here.