Are Mormons Christians? (Latter Day Saints)

[Super Kal]

I’ll take that as you not being interested in getting things clarified - actual LDS Christian here, and I’m very familiar with these misunderstandings. I totally respect your choice there, have a nice day.

You are anything but a christian.. you are a flat out heretic, and you need to repent of your false doctrine.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

You are anything but a christian.. you are a flat out heretic, and you need to repent of your false doctrine.

Thank you for your concern. Have a good day.

 

[Marymog]

Mary, I missed this post from some months back. Sorry about that.

Yes, I stand by my statement. For some reason, you want to introduce a litmus test, if a church's public policy position is X means they cannot be Christian is rejected. To be a Christian has something to do with Christ, not public policy positions.

No need to apologize. I'm sure I have missed/overlooked post to me.

It's been so long I had to look back at what your statement was: Mormons say they are Christian. That's good enough for me.

The people of the Westboro Baptist Church say they are Christian. Is that good enough for you? I could go on and on with more examples of "Christian" churches, but I presume you get my point!

With that said, Marymog didn't introduce a litmus test on what it takes to be considered a "Christian" church. Christ and the Apostles introduced that litmus test!

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Mary, I missed this post from some months back. Sorry about that.

Yes, I stand by my statement. For some reason, you want to introduce a litmus test, if a church's public policy position is X means they cannot be Christian is rejected. To be a Christian has something to do with Christ, not public policy positions.

Would you become a member of a Christian denomination that condones abortion and performs gay marriages?

Curios Mary

 

[Wrangler]

Would you become a member of a Christian denomination that condones abortion and performs gay marriages?

Curios Mary

Well, making the topic personal proves my point. They consider themselves Christian and that’s good enough for me - in terms of accepting their Christian identity.

As far as me joining any particular Christian church, there are many factors. However, the floor is that they are Christian not the ceiling.

 

[Marymog]

Well, making the topic personal proves my point. They consider themselves Christian and that’s good enough for me - in terms of accepting their Christian identity.

As far as me joining any particular Christian church, there are many factors. However, the floor is that they are Christian not the ceiling.

Condoning abortion and performing gay marriages is NOT a "Christian identity". That is the identity of the antichrist.

You are unbelievable..........

 

[Rockerduck]

It is Jesus who tells me which church to attend. I will preach the truth and I don't care who leaves or quits. Churches do not do Gov't marriages between same sex couples or support the killing of babies. I'll leave the church when Jesus tells me to leave and go to another. I also know I'll be doing this until Jesus arrives soon.

 

[Wrangler]

Condoning abortion and performing gay marriages is NOT a "Christian identity". That is the identity of the antichrist.

You are unbelievable..........

I’m happy to disappoint you. I agree with you politically against abortion and homosexuality, believing it is Bible based.

I just don’t see it as a salvation issue, as you seem to.

All this is an aside. As far as I know the LDS don’t have these views.

 

[Super Kal]

Thank you for your concern. Have a good day.

Why should I call you a fellow worker in the faith?

 

[Super Kal]

the Nature of God the Father, D&C 130:22

"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell with us."

Concerning the nature of God the Father, Numbers 23:19 and John 4:23-24:

"God is not a man, that he should lie; Neither the son of man, that he should repent: Hath he said, and shall he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

There is also the issue of God’s “exaltation,” that God was a man who was exalted to godhood. This requires that there must have been a time when God the Father was not God. In fact, Smith went much further than this, claiming that there were in fact many gods, as evidenced in Abraham 3:3-4:

And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light, and there was light. And they (the Gods) comprehended the light, for it was bright, and they divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness.

Smith went further in D&C 93:29, claiming the following:

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not ceated or made, nor indeed can be.

Do the Scriptures teach that there were gods, some before God the Father, and that man existed in the beginning with God?

We have evidence in the Scriptures in Isaiah 43:10 and 44:6-8:

“Ye are my witnesses,” saith the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.”

Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I established the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and that shall come to pass, let them declare. Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have I not declared unto thee of old, and showed it? and ye are my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no Rock; I know not any.”

Joseph Smith claimed that God did not really create the heavens and the earth, but merely organized them:

You ask the learned doctors why they say the world was made out of nothing; and they will answer, “Doesn’t the Bible say He created the world?” And they infer, from the word create, that it must have been made out of nothing. Now, the word create came from the baurau which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence, we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos — chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time he had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning, and can have no end.

Psalm 33:6, 9

By the word of the LORD were the heavens made, And all the host of them by the breath of his mouth…For he spake, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast.

The Relationship Between Jesus and Man​

Smith asserted in his “King Follett Discourse” that man will be “joint heirs with Christ”, and that this “inheritance” is understood as the following:

…the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before6.

Therefore, Smith determined that we will be equal heirs with Christ.

The Scriptures do teach that we shall be joint-heirs with Christ, as seen in Romans 8:16-17

The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

The Eternal Nature of Man​

As man now is, God once was: As God is, man may be7.

further spoken of in D&C 132:19-20:

…and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then they shall be above all, because all things are subject to them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject to them.

The Eternal Nature of Man​

The previous discussions concerning the nature of God and our relationship with Jesus Christ all work to the end of the nature of man. Smith’s belief would be clearly articulated later by Lorenzo Snow:

As man now is, God once was: As God is, man may be7.

This is further spoken of in D&C 132:19-20:

…and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then they shall be above all, because all things are subject to them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject to them.

This is covering only but a fraction of what Mormonism teaches when it concerns theology... this doesn't get into the planet Kolob, or how upon the return of Christ, women will be eternally pregnant and give birth to spirit children, Everything above does not also go into how it implies that Satan and Jesus are both brothers, now also doesn't go into detail about how in Mormonism they teach that there are an infinite number of universes, and within those infinite number of universes there are an infinite number of gods... again there's nothing at all in Mormonism that even faintly gives any credence to it.

Are you just bearing your head in the sand acting like everything that is mentioned above doesn't exist???

 

[Marymog]

I’m happy to disappoint you. I agree with you politically against abortion and homosexuality, believing it is Bible based.

I just don’t see it as a salvation issue, as you seem to.

All this is an aside. As far as I know the LDS don’t have these views.

You agree with me politically? Huh???????? What are you talking about? We are talking about Scripture and your statement. Not politics!

Not a salvation issue? Are you serious? 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]homosexuals, nor [b]sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Y

 

[Wrangler]

You agree with me politically? Huh???????? What are you talking about? We are talking about Scripture and your statement. Not politics!

Mary, do you believe someone can be saved and not have all their doctrine right?

 

[TheOneHeLoves]

I’d encourage you and anyone else to actually fact check (aka ask) what LDS Christians actually believe before condemning. I love Jesus Christ, the very Son of God, with my entire being. He is my King. The Truth.

if you believe that your works will get you to god status and you will have people worship you one day and that Christ Jesus is brothers with satan then you don't believe in the same Jesus. There is only one GOD in the persons of Father, Son and Spirit. That is proven throughout all time yet your religion is religion only the same way as catholicism. a system to mock God and make people worship anything but the ONE and ONLY GOD who deserves all the Honor, Glory, and Praise because He holds all the power and authority.

 

[JohnDB]

On the positive side,
Mormons do tend to have high moral standards and promote such lifestyles. They aren't promoting debauchery or moral turpitude. And indeed there are huge benefits of having a cohesive population with high moral standards. It's worked for thousands of years to the betterment of all involved.

It's their theologies that are at issue. They do not believe the Shema. "Hear oh Israel the Lord, The Lord God is One" IOW Jesus is God, equal part of the whole of the Trinity. (Not that we worship a pantheon...still One God") Satan is not a brother to Jesus.
All sorts of weird theologies that are unfounded and illogical. They do not read the Bible as an originalist and instead take a westernized 19th century populist view. Which is a sad mistake.

And it's sad to see a bunch of nice people send themselves to Hell without the benefit of The Atoning Sacrifice.

 

[Wrangler]

It's their theologies that are at issue.

See post #452.

 

[Marymog]

Mary, do you believe someone can be saved and not have all their doctrine right?

Wrangler, Not a salvation issue? Are you serious? 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]homosexuals, nor [b]sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Wrangler, Would you become a member of a Christian denomination that condones abortion and performs gay marriages?

Wrangler, Currently there are many Protestant denominations that call themselves Christian and yet they support the right to abortion and perform gay marriages. Are those denominations Christian?

Answer my 3 questions and I will answer your 1 question. I have a feeling you won't and will dodge me AGAIN, but I have hope.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Why should I call you a fellow worker in the faith?

Hey @Super Kal

I consider you to be a fellow Christian because we both believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, Savior of the world. I know that I gave my entire self to Him- He is my King and my rock. He pulled me out of the darkness when this world's terribleness made we wish for death. He is my SAVOIR. I presume that you likewise have a loving relationship with Him. Yes, there's disagreements on some things like the nature of man, but by no means would I ever deny your love of Christ and desire to follow Him.

Now, I believe that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ. And that's the only way. Real faith that transforms a sinful wretch into a disciple of Christ- the Biblical definition of a Christian. A person cannot save themselves-- such is a downright laughable impossibility. Even as we strive to follow Christ, we are each still flawed clay in the potter's hands. Saintification is a lifetime+ process.


How do you believe a person is saved? Is it via faith in Christ? Or is it dependent on a man's ability to perfectly ace a theology test?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

if you believe that your works will get you to god status and you will have people worship you one day and that Christ Jesus is brothers with satan then you don't believe in the same Jesus. There is only one GOD in the persons of Father, Son and Spirit. That is proven throughout all time yet your religion is religion only the same way as catholicism. a system to mock God and make people worship anything but the ONE and ONLY GOD who deserves all the Honor, Glory, and Praise because He holds all the power and authority.

^ This has a lot of inaccuracies. I'll stated things better:

I belie that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that through His amazing grace & atonement, my sins can be made clean. From scarlet to pure white clean-- 100%, not 99.99999999%. Christ suffered and die so that I (and everyone else) can be one day be clean, and one with Him, even as He and the Father are one (see John 17). A joint heir WITH Christ. Becoming ONE WITH Christ/Father/Spirit. Never replacing, but instead having God's goodness fully etched on my being. God is my King.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

It's their theologies that are at issue. They do not believe the Shema. "Hear oh Israel the Lord, The Lord God is One" IOW Jesus is God, equal part of the whole of the Trinity. (Not that we worship a pantheon...still One God") Satan is not a brother to Jesus.
All sorts of weird theologies that are unfounded and illogical. They do not read the Bible as an originalist and instead take a westernized 19th century populist view. Which is a sad mistake.

And it's sad to see a bunch of nice people send themselves to Hell without the benefit of The Atoning Sacrifice.

I 100% believe that Jesus Christ is the divine Son of God-- He is God. One with the Father, and Holy Spirit/Ghost, whom are all 3 different people. They are 1 via unity- that same 1 goodness, glory, mercy, will etc.

Points of disagreement come with the post-Biblical Creeds, such as the Athanasian's statements on God's substance, which I don't find supported by the Bible or really even make sense. If that disagreement results in you thinking God will send me to Hell for eternal torture... shrug. I can't change what you think. Nor can I abandon Christ, my love for Him and deep studies due to what some human thinks. So agree to disagree.

 

[JohnDB]

Hey @Super Kal

I consider you to be a fellow Christian because we both believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, Savior of the world. I know that I gave my entire self to Him- He is my King and my rock. He pulled me out of the darkness when this world's terribleness made we wish for death. He is my SAVOIR. I presume that you likewise have a loving relationship with Him. Yes, there's disagreements on some things like the nature of man, but by no means would I ever deny your love of Christ and desire to follow Him.

Now, I believe that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ. And that's the only way. Real faith that transforms a sinful wretch into a disciple of Christ- the Biblical definition of a Christian. A person cannot save themselves-- such is a downright laughable impossibility. Even as we strive to follow Christ, we are each still flawed clay in the potter's hands. Saintification is a lifetime+ process.


How do you believe a person is saved? Is it via faith in Christ? Or is it dependent on a man's ability to perfectly ace a theology test?

Is Jesus a brother to Satan?
(Yes or no please)

If "yes" then it's not so much a theology test but a different Jesus that is based on ours but vastly different.