The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 3:10 does not teach a Pre tribulation rapture. The phrase keep thee from in Greek is "tereo autos ek", The Greek preposition "ek" denotes the motion of the noun from the exterior of the object, not the interior of the object... if this were to teach a pre tribulation rapture, it would use the preposition "apo"...

furthermore, look at Revelation 3:19, when it says "I counsel thee to buy from me gold refined in the fire", the preposition "in", in the original Greek it is the preposition "ek", meaning this gold had to be in the fire in order to be refined

The Bible never once says that Christians are secretly taken out of the world before tribulation begins. Look at the entire Bible, and the overlying messages that are taught within the Bible, never once was anyone removed from tribulation... they were removed from wrath, which falls upon the wicked, but none of them were removed from tribulation:

Noah suffered tribulation from the inhabitants of the world
Job suffered tribulation from the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah
the Israelites suffered tribulation from the Pharaoh when Moses was fighting for their freedom
the Apostles suffered tribulation after the ascension of Jesus Christ

there is no story in all of the scriptures that teach that Christians, or believers, will be secretly snatched away from the Earth before tribulation begins. That is a lie from the pit of Hell, and it will lead you into deception.

Exactly. The only other verse where those words "tereo" and "ek" are used together is this one:

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep (tereo) them from (ek) the evil.

How could Revelation 3:10 possibly have anything to do with being taken out of the world (off of the earth) when Jesus prayed that His followers would not be taken out of the world, but instead would be protected from evil while in the world? It's complete nonsense. In no way, shape or form can Revelation 3:10 be used to support a pre-trib rapture. That verse taken out of context sums up the entire pre-trib rapture theory. It's a theory built on taking scriptures out of context along with many assumptions and wild theories. That's it.

 

[Taken]

So there are no believers in your future 7-years trib?

No Church…the Church is with Christ the Lord.above the face of earth.

During the trib many shall become believers…tribes of Israel and Gentiles…They who do become believers, who willingly give their bodys unto death shall then be soul saved…their souls depart their dead bodies and rise to heaven. They WAIT, for FIRSt resurrection.
A few shall believe, escape death of the tribulations, remain mortal, remain on earth, and repopulate the earth generationally, living, reproducing, dying over a course of 1,000….WHILE the presence of satan and fallen angels is void…

More occurs at the END of the 1,000 years.

 

[WPM]

Scripture is NOT a convoluted mess.
ALL Scripture is True.
ALL Scripture does NOT APPLY to every individual.

Scripture is NOT a host of One Liner EXPLANATIONS!

It is the PROPER passages that speak to the knowledge of an EXPRESS point of topic…
It is multiple passages that expand the knowledge of an EXPRESS point of topic…

It is the Lord God Himself that is the source FOR “UNDERSTANDING”….explaining, interpreting the passages of the knowledge IN Scripture that the Lord God Himself APPROVED!

Rev 3:10 is SPECIFIC to those who HAVE kept Gods Word….if that isn’t you…it doesn’t apply to you.

Rev 3:10 is NOTICE TO those who HAVE kept Gods word…to be EPT from the hour of temptation….if that isn’t you … it doesn’t apply to you.

Rev 3:10 is NOTICE of being KEPT FROM a particular time frame….the hour of Temptation….If you do not KNOW what is the time frame of the HOUR OF TEMPTATION….YOUR duty to read and research and study to discover what the HOUR OF TEMPTATION IS…..
And YOUR DUTY, to decide IF you WANT to be KEPT FROM the HOUR OF TEMPTATION…(or not)…IF so…IT REQUIRES KEEPING the word of God….YOUR OWN freewill choice…regardless of what OTHERS CHOOSE!

Be advised…NOT EVERY individual freely makes the same choices…WHAT YOU do or do not choose SHALL ONLY AFFECT YOU.

YOUR JOB is to KNOW what applies TO YOU (your standing) and WHY…
YOUR JOB is NOT to contort your face in anger and flap your tongue and point your accusatory finger …. Because you are IGNORANT of an others CHOICES to read, study, elections to submit to OPTONS according to Gods Order and Way…and RECEIVE the Blessing of God UNTO THEM for Choosing Gods Offering of HIS KEEPING THEM … WITH Him FOREVER…FROM the HOUR OF TEMPTATION…FROM Gods TRIBULATIONS…FROM WRATH sent down from Heaven…FROM EVIL spirits…FROM Ever being Separated from God…

The same is OFFERED TO ALL MEN….ONLY YOU are accountable for YOUR CHOICES. IF it is YOUR choice to be IGNORANT of Gods “OFFERED CHOICES to forever be with Him”….Embrace it…Stand with it…and stop sticking your nose in what others CHOOSE…
You have ZERO knowledge of what others read, study, accept, regarding “their” one on one relationship with the Lord God…
THEIR one on one relationship with God…IS about them and God…NOT YOU.
Stop pretending you have the qualification or authority to dictate what does and does not “make logical sense to you” or “spiritually applies” to specific individuals…especially that you DO NOT personally KNOW!
Worry about yourself…be-cuz you project yourself as a meddler without being armed with the tools of righteousness.

Rev 3:10
[10] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

This was a personal message to 1 church. This was a promise to a church because it had been faithful.

What was the reward that the Church at Philadelphia experienced (that was obviously unique to them and different from the other 6 churches)?

If the reward for being faithful was merely not living in the last 7 yrs of time was the reward meaning they would miss this Pretrib tribulation then it was a reward all of the churches over this past 2,000 yrs ago everywhere have equally experienced. But it wasn’t. The promise of Christ here was specifically to this local church and it was expressly related to their actual obedience.

From a Pretrib perspective these early Philadelphian Christians experienced no actual reward from Christ for their faithfulness? Pretrib literally renders this an empty promise. After all, like most of the other 7 churches, the Philadelphia church doesn’t even exist today. None of them were therefore going to face a 7-year tribulation.

 

[WPM]

No Church…the Church is with Christ the Lord.above the face of earth.

During the trib many shall become believers…tribes of Israel and Gentiles…They who do become believers, who willingly give their bodys unto death shall then be soul saved…their souls depart their dead bodies and rise to heaven. They WAIT, for FIRSt resurrection.
A few shall believe, escape death of the tribulations, remain mortal, remain on earth, and repopulate the earth generationally, living, reproducing, dying over a course of 1,000….WHILE the presence of satan and fallen angels is void…

More occurs at the END of the 1,000 years.

So, if your 7 year trib equates to the wrath of God (as you claim) then you have believers being subject to the wrath of God?

 

[Super Kal]

A great documentary on the rise of dispensational premillennialism, and the creation of the pre Tribulation Rapture, as found in the Plymouth Brethren, led by Edward Irving

The website mentioned at the beginning has long gone, but the information presented in the documentary is 100% spot on. The individuals teaching hold to a Calvinist theology, but a post-tribulation viewpoint of eschatology

I would also recommend the book The Hope of Christ's Second Coming by Samuel P Tregelles. He was a co-founder of the Plymouth Brethren, and was part of Edward Irving's church when the pre-tribulation rapture first appeared. Tregelles rejected this teaching As he could not find it anywhere within the Scriptures, and leaves remarks about how it began in his book.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No Church…the Church is with Christ the Lord.above the face of earth.

During the trib many shall become believers…tribes of Israel and Gentiles…

Show me where this is taught in scripture. Jesus compared the trib/wrath that will occur at His coming to what happened with the flood in Noah's day and the fire that came down on Sodom in Lot's day. How many people became believers during the flood? How about when the fire came down on Sodom?

 

[WPM]

that just shows how much you actually havent studied this...

You know, for someone like you to make a claim about the early church fathers and yet have absolutely no idea about what they taught, I don't think you have any authority to say what the early church did and did not believe

How do you know that I "have absolutely no idea about what they taught"? It is foolish to come out with such sweeping claims without knowing a person. How about asking me before alleging this? So, saying you are an authority, and I know nothing, maybe you could help me and the readers understand some basic details. Let us put your knowledge to the test:

1. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts for 200 years after the cross (AD30) teach the Premil belief of Satan being cast down from heaven at the second coming?
2. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts for 200 years after the cross (AD30) teach the Premil belief of the binding of Satan at the second coming?
3. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts for 200 years after the cross (AD30) teach the Premil belief that the wicked survive the second coming of the Lord?
4. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts for 200 years after the cross (AD30) teach the Premil belief that Satan survives the second coming?
5. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts for 200 years after the cross (AD30) teach the Premil belief that Satan is cast into the bottomless pit for 1000 years after the second coming?
6. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts for 200 years after the cross (AD30) teach the Premil belief that the wicked populate a future millennial earth?
7. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts for 200 years after the cross (AD30) teach the Premil belief that the curse continues unabated on a future millennial earth?
8. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts for 200 years after the cross (AD30) teach the Premil belief that mortals will populate future millennial earth?
9. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts for 200 years after the cross (AD30) teach the Premil belief that marriage and procreation continue on on a future millennial earth?
10. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts for 200 years after the cross (AD30) teach the Premil belief that sin continues on in a future millennial earth?
11. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts for 200 years after the cross (AD30) teach the Premil belief that death continues on in a future millennial earth?
12. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts for 200 years after the cross (AD30) teach the Premil belief that corruption continues unabated on in a future millennial earth?

 

[Taken]

So, if your 7 year trib equates to the wrath of God (as you claim) then you have believers being subject to the wrath of God?

Actually “IF” you study scripture, your would discover….Tribulations are sent down from Heaven….and there is 21 “judgements” in sets of three (seals, trumps, bowls) and each the three have seven judgements….
The first ..seals…comes with the Wrath of the Lamb…
The next …trumps…incudes the Wrath of the devil…
The last …bowls…comes with the Wrath of God.

Each tribulation and each wrath increases with severity.

So yes…believers not yet saved…can subject themselves to any portion of the tribulations and wraths…and put an end to the same at any time, should they choose to surrender and commit themselves unto the Lord God.

Believing is one thing…
Committing that belief unto the Lord God is another thing.

God is Just.. He will accept those who vow with their truth to accept Him.

Jesus has already Heard the testimony of millions of men who have confessed their true belie in Him….and already accepted his offering they be crucified bodily with him, and He has saved their souls, quicken their spirits…and they have NO MORE required to do and NO appointment with tribulations and wrath sent down from heaven. They are Christ’ CHURCH, and by the power of Christ they are lifted up above the earth, BEFORE tribulations and wrath are sent down upon the whole earth.

 

[The Light]

Talk about avoidance. Talk about deflection. No one claims that. You are incapable of showing Pretrib basics. You cannot support what you claim.

You wouldn't know sarcasm if it bit you. I was mimicking some of your baloney posts.

 

[The Light]

Where in Revelation does it teach "the 1 year Day of the Lord"?

I told you. Quit avoiding.

 

[WPM]

Actually “IF” you study scripture, your would discover….Tribulations are sent down from Heaven….and there is 21 “judgements” in sets of three (seals, trumps, bowls) and each the three have seven judgements….
The first ..seals…comes with the Wrath of the Lamb…
The next …trumps…incudes the Wrath of the devil…
The last …bowls…comes with the Wrath of God.

Each tribulation and each wrath increases with severity.

So yes…believers not yet saved…can subject themselves to any portion of the tribulations and wraths…and put an end to the same at any time, should they choose to surrender and commit themselves unto the Lord God.

Believing is one thing…
Committing that belief unto the Lord God is another thing.

God is Just.. He will accept those who vow with their truth to accept Him.

Jesus has already Heard the testimony of millions of men who have confessed their true belie in Him….and already accepted his offering they be crucified bodily with him, and He has saved their souls, quicken their spirits…and they have NO MORE required to do and NO appointment with tribulations and wrath sent down from heaven. They are Christ’ CHURCH, and by the power of Christ they are lifted up above the earth, BEFORE tribulations and wrath are sent down upon the whole earth.

Stop avoiding. There are obviously redeemed during the tribulation period, so, if the tribulation period is the wrath of God, you are saying that the wrath of God is upon the righteous.

 

[WPM]

I told you. Quit avoiding.

The reader can see how Pretrib is based upon what Pretribbers have been taught, not what the Book says. You cannot support any of your claims. That is because your doctrine is extra-biblical.

 

[WPM]

You wouldn't know sarcasm if it bit you. I was mimicking some of your baloney posts.

No. Avoidance is the Pretrib MO. You cannot even address the Op after all these posts. You must duck around the biblical evidence

 

[Super Kal]

...

I never made the claim that the early church taught all those things, And were unified in the intricate details of chiliasm... I only said that they believed in a literal thousand year reign with Christ, and I provided the quotes which proved that they did.

When it concerns all your "aha! gotcha!" questions, one can differ on non-essential details and still be a premillennial

Just like in historicism... Historicists can differ in opinion when it concerns the interpretation of certain parts of Revelation, but it does not change the fact that they all hold the same overview of historicism... I know one historicist who makes the claim that the Beast of the Earth, or the false prophet, is the return of the Pope, while other historicists, like Doug Batchelor, has his interpretation that the beast of the Earth is actually the United States... I have also seen other historicists who claim that the first seal was the spreading of the gospel, and that was actually something that Irenaeus believed, and I have also seen other historicists say that the fulfillment of the first seal was Constantine conquering Rome... All different interpretations, but all acceptable within the realm of historicism

now, When it concerns the early church, they also had differing opinions on certain things in revelation... when it concerned the heavenly Jerusalem, the early church was undecided, they did not know if it was going to be a city that literally came down from heaven, or if it was just going to be a restored Jerusalem.

I know many premillennials out there who differ on what the first seal is... for example, I know a man named Richard H Perry who believes that the fulfillment of the first seal was the attack of the twin towers on 9/11/2001... I also know of a pre wrath individual named Nelson Waters, who believes that the fulfillment of the first seal will possibly be the pact of the future that is going to be held later this year in September...

Personally speaking, I believe that the first seal, the second seal, and the third seal have already been fulfilled:

the first seal being Obama, who was given a crown, a nation to rule, a bow, this is a reference to how sodomites and have taken the rainbow and perverted it to their own desires, and how Barack Obama made homosexual marriage legal in 2015, and conquering and going out to conquer, he conquered with a fake peace, Not to mention how the mainstream media in 2008 labeled Barack Obama as a messiah figure

The second seal being Donald Trump, when Donald Trump was elected in 2016, his presidency greatly divided people in the world, I have never seen such great division from one person, And the sword that's mentioned for the second seal is actually division, as Jesus said "I did not come to bring peace but a sword", he also said "I did not come to being bring peace but division", and Trump's first presidency did indeed that, it caused division, great division

The third seal being Joe Biden, and the hyperinflation that he created during his presidency, we have never seen inflation on this level in modern day history.

As much as I disagree with Taken and those who hold to a mid tribulation rapture, or a pre wrath rapture, we are still all premillennialists, and we all agree that there is a literal one thousand year reign with Christ on the Earth
I still stand by my statement that you have not read the early church... I showed you from their own writings that they were chiliasts, and yet you claimed that they were not. I then showed you Eusebius's own writings that proved that he was a preterist, and yet you asked where did they come from... I provided the source in parentheses, "Demonstratio Evangelica", I even provided the website which has these quotes, but apparently you missed that.

So your attempt to stump me back fired on ya... good try, though...
I would have fallen for that a few years ago, but not now

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The reader can see how Pretrib is based upon what Pretribbers have been taught, not what the Book says. You cannot support any of your claims. That is because your doctrine is extra-biblical.

Pretribbers never exegete scripture and it's for good reason. They know that when you actually look at scripture closely and in context, you won't find pretrib anywhere in scripture. They will acknowledge that Jesus compared what happened in Noah's day and Lot's day to what will happen at His coming and the rapture, but then they ignore the fact that no unbelievers survived the flood or in Sodom. They have people somehow surviving Christ's second coming into an imaginary time period of tribulation before a third coming. It's ludicrous.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes I know- but 2 thess 1 and Matt 25 place the judgment at the second coming.




2Thess 1
4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure.

5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

Surely the above in red refers to final judgment on the day the Lord comes to glorify us.
That passage is also according to the Lords own word given here...,

Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons)


Surely the above in red is speaking of Gods righteous judgment- Inheriting a restored Eden (NHNE) or the lake of fire when he comes.

Your disagreement is with the Lord and Paul not me.

No
My disagreement is in your misunderstanding.
The ONLY PLACE anyone is burned up is the LOF.
That can not possibly be at the rapture.
You are just placing the TWO SEPARATE EVENTS together.
Two COMPLETELY separate events

Concerning 2 thes 1;4-10, where is there a rapture?
Those passages are the second coming, not the rapture.
We both believe every word of those passages

I see it through the pretrib rapture TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE.
I have pretrib rapture verses

Postribbers have no postrib rapture verses

Take the "one coming" for example.
That is no where near any truth.
Mat 24 has 2 DISTINCT COMINGS.
REV 14 has 2 gatherings that are neither of the mat 24's separate comings.
Why is there any misunderstanding?
Because I am digging it up from the Bible and no postribber has ever seen this.
Go back 7 years before this discovery I made.
No postribber ever taught it.
Zero.
Now it is being made know after me shouting it out for 7 years now.
Postrib rapture is poorly thought out.
See how you transposed a rapture into the second coming of 2 thes?
None is there.
You can read Rev 19 and see the saints in heaven
You can see the innumerable number before the throne in heaven during the trib.
Nobody..I MEAN NOBODY protected those millions of martyrs DURING THE TRIB.
NO believer made it through the trib.
All of them died.
That is the Bible.
100% pretrib rapture per the Word Of God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I never made the claim that the early church taught all those things, And were unified in the intricate details of chiliasm... I only said that they believed in a literal thousand year reign with Christ, and I provided the quotes which proved that they did.

Please stop being naive. You quoted a few ECFs. That represents all of them? Justin Martyr, who was a premillennialist ECF, said that many true Christians believed otherwise. So, there were many amillennialists back then as well. To act as if they all were premillennialists in the early church is simply not true.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The Rapture POV of a pretriber has EXHAUSTIVELY been provided in NUMEROUS threads on that TOPIC, with Umpteen supportive Scriptural verifications.

So…the thread swings back and forth ANTI-pretribbers Demanding the SAME already provided information over and over…Along with snarky comments and accusations in the mix….and whining when your demands are ignored…BOO HOO!

WHY so hell bent on complaining about what others believe?
WHY not grow a backbone and actually STAND FOR YOUR BELIEF and PROVE EVERY man “IN” Christ…
IS ON the face of the EARTH during the END of Days TRIBULATION AND WRATH sent down from Heaven…
THEIR PURPOSE to BE ON EARTH…
WHAT THEY ARE DOING…
WHY God IS CAUSING His Faithful, He Made WHOLE, He Made a NEW CREATURE….TO THEN SUFFER “HIS” Tribulations and wrath…

DO TELL…
(Hint Hint…is SHOULD be quite similar to the SAME “Tribulations and Wrath” God SENT UPON the SAME (EIGHT) faithful of Noah and his family….during Gods First tribulations and wrath HE sent down to Earth!)

Maybe you could INCLUDE that in your commentary….HOW faithful Noah and his family SUFFERED Gods tribulations and wrath during the First Trib.

NO one here can GIVE YOU WHAT YOU REALLY WANT….which is quite similar to what Atheists WANT…

NOT the TRUTH…rather UNDERSTANDING of WHY people believe WHAT they do.

ONLY God Gives UNDERSTANDING…if an atheist doesn’t have it….if you don’t have it…
IT IS NOT the person WITH UNDERSTANDING obligation to GIVE YOU UNDERSTANDING….and WHY repeating the truth over and over and over in these express topic threats….is a waste of time…

BUT go ahead…state your OWN STANDING .. OF such questions … and scriptural verification..

STAND FOR YOUR BELIEF and PROVE EVERY man “IN” Christ…
IS ON the face of the EARTH during the END of Days TRIBULATION AND WRATH sent down from Heaven…
THEIR PURPOSE to BE ON EARTH…
WHAT THEY ARE DOING…
WHY God IS CAUSING His Faithful, He Made WHOLE, He Made a NEW CREATURE….TO THEN SUFFER “HIS” Tribulations and wrath…

And share…Noah’s SUFFERING Gods Tribulation and Wrath during the First Trib….Where WAS He and what Wrath of God was he suffering?

The concept of Jesus gathering His bride pretrib causes them great tribulation...lol

 

[rebuilder 454]

Please stop being naive. You quoted a few ECFs. That represents all of them? Justin Martyr, who was a premillennialist ECF, said that many true Christians believed otherwise. So, there were many amillennialists back then as well. To act as if they all were premillennialists in the early church is simply not true.

Exactly.
They were divided on most everything.
Heresy galore
Hmmmm...and you base your beliefs there in that chasm of heresy.

 

[Super Kal]

Please stop being naive. You quoted a few ECFs. That represents all of them? Justin Martyr, who was a premillennialist ECF, said that many true Christians believed otherwise. So, there were many amillennialists back then as well. To act as if they all were premillennialists in the early church is simply not true.

I'm not being naive. I know the quote of which you speak... did he use the word "amillennial"? Or did he just say "pious believers"?
For all you know, these people could have been post millennial believers, or pre wrath believers... the point is, he did not specify who he was talking about, so for you to automatically say that it was only amillennials he was talking about is an assumption on your part.

And I also never said that amillennials were not Christian. All I simply said was that the ante-Nicene church fathers were chiliasts in their eschatology... just like WPM, you try to assume what I say... look back at what I said.

And I did not post the entirety of the ante-nicene church era, because this website only allows 8000 characters to be posted in a comment

Do not think of me as some stupid, uneducated idiot come who's going to just flood a comment with 20,000 or 30,000 characters in a post.