The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Super Kal]

Jesus never said we would escape tribulation

"In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer for I have overcome the world"
"Through much tribulation shall we enter the Kingdom of God"

 

[MA2444]

Where is the Church mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
Where is a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
Where is a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Revelation 3:10?

See what I mean Brothers & Sisters? He wont address the scripture. He tries to dance around it by asking inane questions about the same verse to try to sort of camoflauge it as an answer! But it was no answer at all. He would not address the scripture directly.

Give him one or two quick pages and he'll start saying we dont post scriptures again, lol!

Wilma, sit down and pay attention right now or you'll go into time out in the corner.

(It must be Wilma for the W in wpm. Lol)

 

[Taken]

Tribulations and Wrath SHALL come upon the whole world and them that dwell upon the Earth…

IF YOU are dwelling upon the EARTH…in those DAYS…..YOU WILL EXPERIENCE WRATH.

Me…I elected an OPTION, that should I be alive in the days of Wrath sent down from Heaven….I WILL NOT BE AMONG THOSE “ON” the EARTH…

Sounds like you have CHOSEN the OPTION to be “ON” the Earth…IGNORANT, but hey…Freewill is a gift from God… Perhaps the surprise of WHICH “wrath”….you will experience intrigues you….earthquake rocks, lava upon you….or fires to burn you…or trying to hide from a beheading will intrigue you….

Glory to God,
Taken






Rev 3: 10
[10] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Scripture is NOT a convoluted mess.

Correct. Your doctrine is a convoluted mess.

ALL Scripture is True.

We all believe this.

ALL Scripture does NOT APPLY to every individual.

Scripture is NOT a host of One Liner EXPLANATIONS!

It is the PROPER passages that speak to the knowledge of an EXPRESS point of topic…
It is multiple passages that expand the knowledge of an EXPRESS point of topic…

It is the Lord God Himself that is the source FOR “UNDERSTANDING”….explaining, interpreting the passages of the knowledge IN Scripture that the Lord God Himself APPROVED!

Rev 3:10 is SPECIFIC to those who HAVE kept Gods Word….if that isn’t you…it doesn’t apply to you.

Rev 3:10 is NOTICE TO those who HAVE kept Gods word…to be EPT from the hour of temptation….if that isn’t you … it doesn’t apply to you.

Rev 3:10 is NOTICE of being KEPT FROM a particular time frame….the hour of Temptation….If you do not KNOW what is the time frame of the HOUR OF TEMPTATION….YOUR duty to read and research and study to discover what the HOUR OF TEMPTATION IS…..
And YOUR DUTY, to decide IF you WANT to be KEPT FROM the HOUR OF TEMPTATION…(or not)…IF so…IT REQUIRES KEEPING the word of God….YOUR OWN freewill choice…regardless of what OTHERS CHOOSE!

Being kept from the hour of trial has to do with being protected during it and has nothing to do with being taken off of the earth. When your doctrine is built off of taking verses like Revelation 3:10 out of context then you know your doctrine is very weak and can't be supported by scripture.

Your interpretation of Revelation 3:10 completely contradicts Jesus's prayer that His followers would not be taken out of the world to avoid evil, trials and temptations, but rather would be protected while in the world from evil and temptation.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Your arguments are WEAK. Very easily refuted. Is this all you have?

 

[Super Kal]

Revelation 3:10 does not teach a Pre tribulation rapture. The phrase keep thee from in Greek is "tereo autos ek", The Greek preposition "ek" denotes the motion of the noun from the exterior of the object, not the interior of the object... if this were to teach a pre tribulation rapture, it would use the preposition "apo"...

furthermore, look at Revelation 3:19, when it says "I counsel thee to buy from me gold refined in the fire", the preposition "in", in the original Greek it is the preposition "ek", meaning this gold had to be in the fire in order to be refined

The Bible never once says that Christians are secretly taken out of the world before tribulation begins. Look at the entire Bible, and the overlying messages that are taught within the Bible, never once was anyone removed from tribulation... they were removed from wrath, which falls upon the wicked, but none of them were removed from tribulation:

Noah suffered tribulation from the inhabitants of the world
Job suffered tribulation from the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah
the Israelites suffered tribulation from the Pharaoh when Moses was fighting for their freedom
the Apostles suffered tribulation after the ascension of Jesus Christ

there is no story in all of the scriptures that teach that Christians, or believers, will be secretly snatched away from the Earth before tribulation begins. That is a lie from the pit of Hell, and it will lead you into deception.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Tribulations and Wrath SHALL come upon the whole world and them that dwell upon the Earth…

IF YOU are dwelling upon the EARTH…in those DAYS…..YOU WILL EXPERIENCE WRATH.

Me…I elected an OPTION, that should I be alive in the days of Wrath sent down from Heaven….I WILL NOT BE AMONG THOSE “ON” the EARTH…

Sounds like you have CHOSEN the OPTION to be “ON” the Earth…IGNORANT, but hey…Freewill is a gift from God… Perhaps the surprise of WHICH “wrath”….you will experience intrigues you….earthquake rocks, lava upon you….or fires to burn you…or trying to hide from a beheading will intrigue you….

Glory to God,
Taken






Rev 3: 10
[10] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Since when are believers not allowed to experience temptation? What a joke this is. Christians have been in the world experiencing temptation for almost 2,000 years now, but for some reason God is going to decide that His people can't go through temptation anymore? This can't be taken seriously. The only time when we'll need to be taken off the earth is right before this happens when Jesus returns:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

 

[Super Kal]

The entirety of the early church taught that the church would suffer at the hands of the Antichrist... not a single one of them taught that Christians would secretly float away into the sky before tribulation began.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

EVER notice…how the bitter, and frustrated, and angry…are the same to use those terms against others….LOL…gaslighters….thinking they deflected from their own failures…

Boring…

I've noticed that you have never once made a coherent argument supporting your false doctrine. Your arguments are all extremely weak. Using Revelation 3:10 to support your pre-trib belief? LOL! If that's the best you can offer then you clearly have nothing to offer from scripture to support your false beliefs.

 

[Taken]

Jesus never said we would escape tribulation


"In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer for I have overcome the world"
"Through much tribulation shall we enter the Kingdom of God"

Tribulations….absolutely HAVE and SHALL continue to OCCUR IN “THIS “ World.

And the CAUSE? Influences of EVIL fallen spirits….AND Wicked men..definitely nothing new

ONCE…tribulations and WRATH were sent down from Heaven….WHO CAUSED THAT (FLOOD) TRIBULATION? God!
WHO was “EXCEPTED” ? Noah and his family (8 persons).
HOW were they “EXCEPTED”?They were LIFTED UP above the Earth.

AGAIN..tribulations and WRATH shall be sent down from Heaven….WHO SHALL CAUSE TRIBULATION ? God!
WHO “will be EXCEPTED”? Christ’s Church.
HOW will they be “EXCEPTED” ? They shall be LIFTED UP above the Earth.

Perspective of the all the FACTS of WHO is doing what and why and who is and is not excepted and why….is paramount to conclude the Truth.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[MA2444]

I found a good teaching video today and just watched it. This guy hits on all things that have been debated back and forth in this thread and uses scripture references for all of them, so have your pen & paper handy to write them down.

I disagree with this guy only on a couple minor points, but he is good and 99% of what he speaks on is exactly how I uderstand it to be. But this guy is all orderly and organized and walks right through the whole debate and shows Premil to be truth.

Somehow, I doubt if Wilma or SI will even watch the video, lol. Betch they wont!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The marriage does not occur in the air. It occurs in heaven.

Revelation 19
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

Hello? Did you forget that I already refuted this false claim when you said this before? Keep reading from there...

Revelation 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. 5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. 6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Notice that it says "his wife hath made herself ready". That means the marriage hasn't occurred yet at that point. It does not say it occurs in heaven. It is at that point that Jesus will descend from heaven with His bride (the souls of the dead in Christ) and they will meet Him in the air and the marriage will take place after that.

The armies leave heaven..........where the throne is.



He is coming with wrath. He will then set up His kingdom on earth as His feet will touch the mount of Olives.


Here are the parallels short and simple.

Revelation 4 and 5 shows the Lord has come for His bride.
Revelation 6, the 1st 6 seal is what Jesus is telling us in Matthew 24.
The second coming occurs at the 6th seal it is a harvest seen in Rev 14.
The 7th seal is the 1-year day of the Lord, wrath of God.
Wrath is over and the 7th trumpet.

Want another view?
Revelation 13 and 14 occur in the 1st 6 seals
Revelation 16 and 16 occur in the 7th seal

Revelation is written like Genesis 7. We get 3 views of Noah loading the animals, but He only loads them once. We get three views of the flood but there is one flood.

In Revelation we get two views of the 1st 6 seals.................Revelation 6 and Revelation 13-14.
We get two views of the 7th seal wrath of God.......................Revelation 8-11 and Revelation 12-16


So you have been answered again. Where is your detailed point by point response?

You have no fear of God, which is why you don't fear leading others from the truth. This is also why you have no wisdom or understanding.

This is not exegesis, this is twisting and contorting scripture to make it say what you want it to say.

 

[Super Kal]

Revelation 13:7
Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.

God does NOT cause tribulation. He permits it

And Noah was never lifted above the earth. Noah was in a boat. He was protected from the wrath of God, but he never once left the earth... so stop trying to twist the Bible to suit your own personal dispensational opinion.

 

[Taken]

The entirety of the early church taught that the church would suffer at the hands of the Antichrist... not a single one of them taught that Christians would secretly float away into the sky before tribulation began.

OPEN EYES, OPEN EARS….the CHURCH…(those IN Christ) are routinely attacked…. Their beliefs of individuals, their buildings established for gathering….
NOT NEWS….evil spirits lurk and wicked men plot and openly and secretly under cover of night attack…

Do you NOT Comprehend the Church, the building are constantly attacked…and God has HIS OWN REVENGE PLAN He will execute AGAINST the attackers? And you think God is going to LEAVE HIS CHURCH, on Earth….WHILE HE is pouring out His REVENGE ON THE WHOLE WORLD?

Don’t you find is A BIT ODD….God Caused Noah and his family to be lifted UP ABOVE the Earth when God executed HIS tribulations and wrath upon the whole earth…..but has NO PLAN for the CHURCH, the next time God executes His tribulations and wrath upon the whole earth?

What do you think….caught up to the clouds regarding Christ’s Church (ie those IN Christ) means….? 1 Thes 4: 17

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is no second part of the 6th seal. Jesus comes. All eyes see the coming of the Lord. They try to hide in caves etc because they know that the 1 year Day of the Lord is about to begin.

This 1 year day of the Lord thing is complete nonsense. The following passages describe what will happen on the day of the Lord. Show me how the "sudden destruction" that will occur on the day of the Lord can possibly last for 1 year. It's not so sudden destruction in your view.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

You expect us to believe that the event described in the above passages will last for one whole year. LOL. No.

 

[Super Kal]

I recommend the 2016 debate between Greg Stauffer and Joe Schimmel

OPEN EYES, OPEN EARS….the CHURCH…(those IN Christ) are routinely attacked…. Their beliefs of individuals, their buildings established for gathering….
NOT NEWS….evil spirits lurk and wicked men plot and openly and secretly under cover of night attack…

Do you NOT Comprehend the Church, the building are constantly attacked…and God has HIS OWN REVENGE PLAN He will execute AGAINST the attackers? And you think God is going to LEAVE HIS CHURCH, on Earth….WHILE HE is pouring out His REVENGE ON THE WHOLE WORLD?

Don’t you find is A BIT ODD….God Caused Noah and his family to be lifted UP ABOVE the Earth when God executed HIS tribulations and wrath upon the whole earth…..but has NO PLAN for the CHURCH, the next time God executes His tribulations and wrath upon the whole earth?

What do you think….caught up to the clouds regarding Christ’s Church (ie those IN Christ) means….? 1 Thes 4: 17

You can repeat yourself all you want, doesn't change the fact that Noah was not lifted above the Earth...
Noah was in a boat. A boat does not float above the Earth. A boat floats in the water. The water is part of the Earth.

And 1 Thessalonians 4:17, in order for that to happen, the resurrection of the dead, the first resurrection, must happen first, 1 Thessalonians 4:15... and when does that happen?
At the last trumpet, 1 Corinthians 15:52-55
After the beast, the false prophet, and the devil are thrown into the bottomless pit, Revelation 20:4-6

There is no first resurrection before the first resurrection
there is no last trumpet before the last trumpet

 

[WPM]

See what I mean Brothers & Sisters? He wont address the scripture. He tries to dance around it by asking inane questions about the same verse to try to sort of camoflauge it as an answer! But it was no answer at all. He would not address the scripture directly.

Give him one or two quick pages and he'll start saying we dont post scriptures again, lol!

Wilma, sit down and pay attention right now or you'll go into time out in the corner.

(It must be Wilma for the W in wpm. Lol)

More avoidance and more insults. Welcome to Pretrib online!

 

[WPM]

Tribulations and Wrath SHALL come upon the whole world and them that dwell upon the Earth…

IF YOU are dwelling upon the EARTH…in those DAYS…..YOU WILL EXPERIENCE WRATH.

Me…I elected an OPTION, that should I be alive in the days of Wrath sent down from Heaven….I WILL NOT BE AMONG THOSE “ON” the EARTH…

Sounds like you have CHOSEN the OPTION to be “ON” the Earth…IGNORANT, but hey…Freewill is a gift from God… Perhaps the surprise of WHICH “wrath”….you will experience intrigues you….earthquake rocks, lava upon you….or fires to burn you…or trying to hide from a beheading will intrigue you….

Glory to God,
Taken






Rev 3: 10
[10] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

So there are no believers in your future 7-years trib?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I recommend the 2016 debate between Greg Stauffer and Joe Schimme

You can repeat yourself like a parrot it all you want, doesn't change the fact that Noah was not lifted above the Earth...
Noah was in a boat. A boat does not float above the Earth. A boat floats in the water. The water is part of the Earth.

And 1 Thessalonians 4:17, in order for that to happen, the resurrection of the dead, the first resurrection, must happen first, 1 Thessalonians 4:15... and when does that happen?
At the last trumpet, 1 Corinthians 15:52-55
After the beast, the false prophet, and the devil are thrown into the bottomless pit, Revelation 20:4-6

There is no first resurrection before the first resurrection
there is no last trumpet before the last trumpet

The real issue, as I see it, is not him comparing Noah being on to the ark with the rapture, but rather him not acknowledging that Jesus indicated that just as all unbelievers who were left off of the ark were killed, all unbelievers who are left behind and not caught up to Christ when He comes will be killed.

 

[Taken]

I recommend the 2016 debate between Greg Stauffer and Joe Schimme

You can repeat yourself like a parrot it all you want, doesn't change the fact that Noah was not lifted above the Earth...
Noah was in a boat. A boat does not float above the Earth. A boat floats in the water. The water is part of the Earth.

LOL…Noah was lifted up above the earth…
LOL…Water is NOT part of the earth.
LOL..Earth IS DRY Land!

Go read the scriptures for yourself… or remain ignorant.
Your accusations and speech is false and only you, not me is accountable for your false accusations and speech.




And 1 Thessalonians 4:17, in order for that to happen, the resurrection of the dead, the first resurrection, must happen first, 1 Thessalonians 4:15... and when does that happen?
At the last trumpet, 1 Corinthians 15:52-55
After the beast, the false prophet, and the devil are thrown into the bottomless pit, Revelation 20:4-6

There is no first resurrection before the first resurrection
there is no last trumpet before the last trumpet

 

[WPM]

Scripture is NOT a convoluted mess.
ALL Scripture is True.
ALL Scripture does NOT APPLY to every individual.

Scripture is NOT a host of One Liner EXPLANATIONS!

It is the PROPER passages that speak to the knowledge of an EXPRESS point of topic…
It is multiple passages that expand the knowledge of an EXPRESS point of topic…

It is the Lord God Himself that is the source FOR “UNDERSTANDING”….explaining, interpreting the passages of the knowledge IN Scripture that the Lord God Himself APPROVED!

Rev 3:10 is SPECIFIC to those who HAVE kept Gods Word….if that isn’t you…it doesn’t apply to you.

Rev 3:10 is NOTICE TO those who HAVE kept Gods word…to be EPT from the hour of temptation….if that isn’t you … it doesn’t apply to you.

Rev 3:10 is NOTICE of being KEPT FROM a particular time frame….the hour of Temptation….If you do not KNOW what is the time frame of the HOUR OF TEMPTATION….YOUR duty to read and research and study to discover what the HOUR OF TEMPTATION IS…..
And YOUR DUTY, to decide IF you WANT to be KEPT FROM the HOUR OF TEMPTATION…(or not)…IF so…IT REQUIRES KEEPING the word of God….YOUR OWN freewill choice…regardless of what OTHERS CHOOSE!

Be advised…NOT EVERY individual freely makes the same choices…WHAT YOU do or do not choose SHALL ONLY AFFECT YOU.

YOUR JOB is to KNOW what applies TO YOU (your standing) and WHY…
YOUR JOB is NOT to contort your face in anger and flap your tongue and point your accusatory finger …. Because you are IGNORANT of an others CHOICES to read, study, elections to submit to OPTONS according to Gods Order and Way…and RECEIVE the Blessing of God UNTO THEM for Choosing Gods Offering of HIS KEEPING THEM … WITH Him FOREVER…FROM the HOUR OF TEMPTATION…FROM Gods TRIBULATIONS…FROM WRATH sent down from Heaven…FROM EVIL spirits…FROM Ever being Separated from God…

The same is OFFERED TO ALL MEN….ONLY YOU are accountable for YOUR CHOICES. IF it is YOUR choice to be IGNORANT of Gods “OFFERED CHOICES to forever be with Him”….Embrace it…Stand with it…and stop sticking your nose in what others CHOOSE…
You have ZERO knowledge of what others read, study, accept, regarding “their” one on one relationship with the Lord God…
THEIR one on one relationship with God…IS about them and God…NOT YOU.
Stop pretending you have the qualification or authority to dictate what does and does not “make logical sense to you” or “spiritually applies” to specific individuals…especially that you DO NOT personally KNOW!
Worry about yourself…be-cuz you project yourself as a meddler without being armed with the tools of righteousness.

Rev 3:10
[10] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Where is the Church mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
Where is a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
Where is a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Revelation 3:10?