The absurdity of Pretrib logic

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Taken

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Rapture Wimpism



But the promise is only for those who refuse to be rapture wimps.

Rapture wimp is your term…for whom specifically….IDK…

God gave Noah and Escape from Devastation and does the same for those IN Christ.

Christ’s CHURCH is not a “brick and mortar building”… Many attend a man-made church…who do not believe, who have no committed vow unto the Lord God…who are not soul saved or born again…Yet they may and others do call them “Christians”.

It is not wearing the “Christian” title that MAKES one soul saved or spirit born again…

It is not attending a “Christian church” that MAKES one soul save or spirit born again…

Christ the Lord is not ignorant or fooled (as men are)… He know exactly who has, who shall, willingly give their bodily life, their soul, their spirit unto Him that He is faithful to MAKE that person WHOLE…and ON HIS REDEMPTION List! ..and DELIVERED FROM the day God shall send down from Heaven, His tribulations and wrath..
THEY risen UP…above the face of the Earth…same as occurred for Noah.

Those ON earth…NOT “IN” Christ…shall be deciding…with the Lord Jesus or without the Lord Jesus…and those deciding with…shall suffer the tribulations, the wraths, and physically give their body’s unto death…during those days….and not to worry…Those who Physically DIE “believing in Jesus”….God shall raise and bring with Him…called the First Resurrection.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Freedm

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I don't know what you're talking about. Speak clearly and get to the point.
Luke 21:25-27
“There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:30
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Josephus the historian writes of supernatural signs that took place, just before the destruction of Jerusalem, including a sword above Jerusalem for a year, which was the sign of the son of man appearing in heaven.

The Sword Above Jerusalem

Thus it was that the wretched people were deluded at that time by charlatans and pretended messengers of the deity; while they neither heeded nor believed in the manifest portents that foretold the coming desolation, but, as if thunderstruck and bereft of eyes and mind, disregarded the plain warnings of God. So it was when a star, resembling a sword, stood over the city, and a comet which continued for a year." (Wars 6.5.3)

Bright Light Around Altar

Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, 21 [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. (Wars 6.5.3)

Heifer Gives Birth

At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. (Wars 6.5.3)

The Gate Opened

Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner 22 [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. (Wars 6.5.3)

Chariots in the Sky

Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. (Wars 6.5.3)

Ghostly Voice

Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." (Wars 6.5.3)

Woe, Woe to Jerusalem

But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, 23 began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus [for he was then our procurator] asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost. (Wars 6.5.3)
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Rapture wimp is your term…for whom specifically….IDK…
You don't know? Really? He's clearly referring to those who believe in a pre-trib rapture and think that we are wimps who need to be removed from the earth to avoid tribulation despite the fact that millions of Christians have gone through tribulation for almost 2,000 years at this point.

God gave Noah and Escape from Devastation and does the same for those IN Christ.
No one is denying that the rapture will happen, but do you accept what Jesus and Peter taught will happen when He comes that is just like what happened in the flood in Noah's day? All unbelievers were killed in the flood, right? Jesus said in relation to that: "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.". So, all unbelievers will be killed when He comes as well. Do you agree with Jesus about that? Peter taught the same thing when he said in 2 Peter 3:6-7 "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire.".

Christ’s CHURCH is not a “brick and mortar building”… Many attend a man-made church…who do not believe, who have no committed vow unto the Lord God…who are not soul saved or born again…Yet they may and others do call them “Christians”.

It is not wearing the “Christian” title that MAKES one soul saved or spirit born again…

It is not attending a “Christian church” that MAKES one soul save or spirit born again…

Christ the Lord is not ignorant or fooled (as men are)… He know exactly who has, who shall, willingly give their bodily life, their soul, their spirit unto Him that He is faithful to MAKE that person WHOLE…and ON HIS REDEMPTION List! ..and DELIVERED FROM the day God shall send down from Heaven, His tribulations and wrath..
THEY risen UP…above the face of the Earth…same as occurred for Noah.
Yes, we are all aware of this. This does not prove a pre-trib rapture as you understand it. Do you not also compare what happened in Lot's day to the rapture? The same day Lot went out of Sodom fire came down and destroyed the city. Jesus said in relation to that: "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30).

Those ON earth…NOT “IN” Christ…shall be deciding…with the Lord Jesus or without the Lord Jesus…and those deciding with…shall suffer the tribulations, the wraths, and physically give their body’s unto death…during those days….and not to worry…Those who Physically DIE “believing in Jesus”….God shall raise and bring with Him…called the First Resurrection.
This is absolute nonsense. Those who are left on earth will all be destroyed without exception. There will be no time to make any decision at that point. What a horrible doctrine to teach nonsense like this that can lead people to believe they will get a second chance at that point!

You are contradicting what Jesus taught about what will happen to those who are left on earth when the rapture occurs:

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

What Jesus taught is that just like in the day Noah entered the ark and the day Lot went out of Sodom, all unbelievers were then destroyed. As Jesus said "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed". The idea of anyone surviving at that point completely contradicts what Jesus taught. He went on to explain that some will be taken and some left at that point. Believers will be taken up to meet the Lord in the air and unbelievers will be left on the earth to be killed. Jesus then indicated where this will happen. Wherever dead bodies are that the eagles will feast on. Which will be everywhere on the earth because His second coming is a global event. Both Jesus and Peter (2 Peter 3:6-7) associated heaven and earth passing away with that event by comparing it directly to the scope of destruction that occurred with the flood in Noah's day.
 
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Freedm

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Are you sure you are not a Full Preterist? This is spirutualization gone crazy. I am not going to waste my time on such nonsense.
How is it nonsense, when Jesus literally relates the destruction of the temple, with the destruction of heaven and earth?

The entire chapter of Luke 21 is about Jesus describing the destruction of the temple and the signs of the end. Jesus begins by saying "As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down." and he finishes by saying "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away".

Why would he mention heaven and earth passing away, when the disciples asked about the temple? It's because they are one and the same. He's comforting them by saying, don't worry, even though the temple will be lost, my words will never be lost. I will be with you always. That's what he was referring to when he said "heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away", because the disciples were concerned about Jesus' prediction about the temple, because they were so proud of the temple, so Jesus needed to comfort them with his words, and that was when he used the term "heaven and earth", which the disciples were obviously familiar with.

You'll notice that they never questioned Jesus' statement, because he'd already told them previously that the temple would be destroyed, so they were not shocked when he said "heaven and earth will pass away". If they thought he was talking about the entire earth and the heavens above, they would've been shocked, and the loss of the temple would've been the least of their worries, but they were not shocked.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Luke 21:25-27
“There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:30
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Josephus the historian writes of supernatural signs that took place, just before the destruction of Jerusalem, including a sword above Jerusalem for a year, which was the sign of the son of man appearing in heaven.

The Sword Above Jerusalem

Thus it was that the wretched people were deluded at that time by charlatans and pretended messengers of the deity; while they neither heeded nor believed in the manifest portents that foretold the coming desolation, but, as if thunderstruck and bereft of eyes and mind, disregarded the plain warnings of God. So it was when a star, resembling a sword, stood over the city, and a comet which continued for a year." (Wars 6.5.3)

Bright Light Around Altar

Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, 21 [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. (Wars 6.5.3)

Heifer Gives Birth

At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. (Wars 6.5.3)

The Gate Opened

Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner 22 [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. (Wars 6.5.3)

Chariots in the Sky

Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. (Wars 6.5.3)

Ghostly Voice

Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." (Wars 6.5.3)

Woe, Woe to Jerusalem

But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, 23 began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus [for he was then our procurator] asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost. (Wars 6.5.3)
Jesus did not come in 70 AD. No one saw Him come with power and great glory back then and the elect were not gathered at that time. I'm not going to waste any more of my time on this nonsense.
 
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Freedm

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Jesus did not come in 70 AD. No one saw Him come with power and great glory back then and the elect were not gathered at that time. I'm not going to waste any more of my time on this nonsense.
You can close your eyes if you want to, that's totally up to you, but the less information you're open to receiving, the less you will know.
 

WPM

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Rapture wimp is your term…for whom specifically….IDK…

God gave Noah and Escape from Devastation and does the same for those IN Christ.

Christ’s CHURCH is not a “brick and mortar building”… Many attend a man-made church…who do not believe, who have no committed vow unto the Lord God…who are not soul saved or born again…Yet they may and others do call them “Christians”.

It is not wearing the “Christian” title that MAKES one soul saved or spirit born again…

It is not attending a “Christian church” that MAKES one soul save or spirit born again…

Christ the Lord is not ignorant or fooled (as men are)… He know exactly who has, who shall, willingly give their bodily life, their soul, their spirit unto Him that He is faithful to MAKE that person WHOLE…and ON HIS REDEMPTION List! ..and DELIVERED FROM the day God shall send down from Heaven, His tribulations and wrath..
THEY risen UP…above the face of the Earth…same as occurred for Noah.

Those ON earth…NOT “IN” Christ…shall be deciding…with the Lord Jesus or without the Lord Jesus…and those deciding with…shall suffer the tribulations, the wraths, and physically give their body’s unto death…during those days….and not to worry…Those who Physically DIE “believing in Jesus”….God shall raise and bring with Him…called the First Resurrection.

Glory to God,
Taken
Where is your Scripture? All i see with you is noise and false Pretrib claims. Bring your evidence to the table instead of always voicing your opinions.
 
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Taken

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Amen! The idea that Christians will be taken off of the earth to avoid tribulation for a period of 7 years or whatever is complete nonsense when you consider that Christians have been going through tribulation for almost 2,000 years now.

Well…ya! tribulation and wrath of men…NOT God!



Here is one more verse to add to the list:

2 Timothy 3:12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,

Uh huh…men persecuting men…

Yep….God has ANOTHER time He will send HIS tribulations and wrath upon the Earth…

You hope to be on the earth during those days…Okie dokie….enjoy.

In a much as God RAISED Faithful Noah UP above the Earth…to AVOID destruction upon the Earth….so also shall the Power of God raise up the Faithful above the Earth…that they AVOIDe destruction upon the Earth.

Matt 24:
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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How is it nonsense, when Jesus literally relates the destruction of the temple, with the destruction of heaven and earth?
He does no such thing! Just like Peter did in 2 Peter 3:6-7, Jesus compared the scope of destruction that happened with the flood in Noah's day to the scope of destruction that would occur when He comes. He pointed out that in Noah's day the flood came and destroyed all unbelievers and then He said "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." (Matt 24:39). That was right after indicating that heaven and earth would pass away at that point and that no one knew the day or hour it would happen. It makes sense that all unbelievers would be killed if the earth passes away, right? Hello? And how can not knowing the day or hour apply to what happened in 70 AD? That's ridiculous. Neither Jesus nor Peter compared the destruction of the temple to the flood in Noah's day. What a joke! What kind of ridiculous comparison would that be? Please be serious. Full preterism is a joke.

The entire chapter of Luke 21 is about Jesus describing the destruction of the temple and the signs of the end. Jesus begins by saying "As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down." and he finishes by saying "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away".

Why would he mention heaven and earth passing away, when the disciples asked about the temple? It's because they are one and the same. He's comforting them by saying, don't worry, even though the temple will be lost, my words will never be lost. I will be with you always. That's what he was referring to when he said "heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away", because the disciples were concerned about Jesus' prediction about the temple, because they were so proud of the temple, so Jesus needed to comfort them with his words, and that was when he used the term "heaven and earth", which the disciples were obviously familiar with.

You'll notice that they never questioned Jesus' statement, because he'd already told them previously that the temple would be destroyed, so they were not shocked when he said "heaven and earth will pass away". If they thought he was talking about the entire earth and the heavens above, they would've been shocked, and the loss of the temple would've been the least of their worries, but they were not shocked.
When you read the Matthew 24 account you can see that they asked two different questions. One was about when the temple would be destroyed and the other is about Christ's coming at the end of this temporal age which has not yet occurred. He answered the questions separately. Anything He said about His coming has nothing to do with what happened in 70 AD as He did not come in any way, shape or form in 70 AD.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Well…ya! tribulation and wrath of men…NOT God!
Well, yeah! No kidding. What I'm trying to get you to address is what does His wrath result in as it relates to unbelievers? According to Jesus in Matthew 24:35-39 and Luke 17:26-37, they will all be destroyed when He comes and the rapture occurs just as occurred with the flood in Noah's day and the fire that came down on Sodom in Lot's day. So, do you agree with Jesus about that? Do you believe all unbelievers will be destroyed by His wrath just as they were in the flood and in Sodom?

Uh huh…men persecuting men…

Yep….God has ANOTHER time He will send HIS tribulations and wrath upon the Earth…

You hope to be on the earth during those days…Okie dokie….enjoy.
Do you have to resort to this nonsense? Can you not speak like an adult? No one here believes that Christians will experience God's wrath and no one here wants that. Okay? Stop acting like anyone wants that, which is ridiculous. I'm trying to get you to address the scope of His wrath that will occur at that point. You think people will survive it and get another chance to repent which is complete nonsense and does not line up with Jesus comparing the wrath that will come at that point to the wrath that occurred in Noah's day and in Lot's day.

In a much as God RAISED Faithful Noah UP above the Earth…to AVOID destruction upon the Earth….so also shall the Power of God raise up the Faithful above the Earth…that they AVOIDe destruction upon the Earth.
Yes, exactly! We all believe this! Do you not understand that? What we disagree on is the scope of destruction that will occur at that point. I say that it will be COMPLETE destruction on the entire earth and you apparently disagree with that? If so, what is your basis for disagreeing with that?
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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It's getting chilly in here. :cold:
It should be chilly for you. You foolishly deny that we are still looking forward to what Paul referenced in Titus 2:13:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
 

Taken

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Do you agree with Jesus when He indicated that just as "the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be", which means all unbelievers will be killed when Jesus comes and we're caught up to Him just as all unbelievers were killed by the flood in Noah's day? Jesus even said that heaven and earth will pass away at that point. Just like Peter taught as well:

During the trib…
Unbelievers shall “unwillingly” be killed.
Believers during the Trib, shall “willingly” be killed
The Raptured have already “willingly” given their Life unto God…and no longer occupy the face of the Earth while the tribulation and wrath from heaven is Occurring.

What do you think CRUCIFIED with Christ means?

How many times is a man REQUIRED TO BODILY DIE? —— ONCE!

WHO is SAVED….and WHEN?
The FAITHFUL WHO willingly GIVE their Bodily Life unto God.
Saved WHEN? Right after their Bodily life is given unto Death, to the Lord God.

IOW…a DEATH MUST occur for believers….BEFORE they are SAVED, QUICKENED…

Some ARE saved…by proxy so to speak..having vowed their life unto the Lord God…crucified with Christ…called a LIVING Sacrifice…WHICH BTW…is the crux of the whole GOOD NEWS OF THE NT….!!
Guaranteed, a surety of SALVATION BEFORE PHYSICAL DEATH…being crucified with Christ!

Heb 7:
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Others who shall heartfuly believe before their bodily death, but not confessed their belief…SHALL be saved at the time of their bodily death.

ONLY after a death is a man SAVED…thus…ONCE he is DEAD, he is SAVED, it is Forever…
That dead man does not receive and become “UN-saved”…OSAS

1 Cor 15:
[36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Rom 12:
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Your freewill option…to accept Christ Jesus” Assured Offering…or not..

Glory to God,
Taken
 

MA2444

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Because you refuse to be serious. Just look through some of your own posts and you can see that.

Serious talk about scripture is lost on you and your partner. It's like talking with a brick wall. So yeah I tend to see the lighter side of you guys posts because I am secure in my beliefs. So that you can see my less seriousness with you & your partner is a start. Yep. I dont take you guys seriously. You seem to have an OCD type of fixation with this subject of trying to teach people to not watch for Jesus and believe all that rapture stuff comes later (Lol). That's weird, ok? And carries the stench of untruth with it.

Tried what? Give me an example.

An example? Lol, what for? All you want to do is get some more ammo to wrgue with me with your projectionist inversion tactics. I have no further need to really discuss anything with you two.

LOL. Just like your doctrine, you have nothing to back this up. Absolutely nothing. We practically beg you pretrib guys to exegete scripture and show exactly how and why you believe what you do and you just won't do it. All you do instead is hurl personal insults like you did once again here.

Can you see how narciccistic that your being? Lol. Stop whining like a woman, lol.

You say I'm unteachable? I used to be a premil. How did I become an Amil if I'm unteachable?

Ok you asked the question, remember that!
You have not proved that you are teachable. You have proved that you are deceivable. (I have scripture for that if you like? (didnt think you wanteed it.)

I have different views on a number of things since I started studying end times doctrine more closely. So, you have no idea of what you're talking about. I have been studying scripture for many years, so, naturally, I'm past the point of changing my view on a regular basis and constantly learning new things. But, I do still learn new things here and there and am not unteachable.

You have just stated that there will be no serious discussion with you and you are past the point of changing your view, and I already knew that so stopped being serious with you! (Duh). And you are unteachable unless you take it to the Lord in serious prayer. But from the tone of your posts it is as if you hold yourself (and your partner) to be somehow...above and beyond us peons and that begs the question...where is your Christ=like character in your posts? Point it out once for me where you made anything approaching a Christlike response to a pretribber....

So what's with that? If you (arrogantly) hold yourself above pretribbers...and that is not how sccripture instructs us to be towards our neighbor(s) so I ask again, what's up with that?? In case you hadnt noticed, I dont respond to other people that I disagree with like I do to you & your partner. Ask yourself, why would I be like that? It's nothing other than your negative energy and I can not see Christ in what you write, ever. And you can have a mouth on you! A big mouth that belittles others and declares opinion to be truth. That is evil at it's core. Maybe you thought you could chase away me and my mouth from taking away some of your ability to talk unfettered nonsense to other members here!
I can play that game too brother, lol. You want to play? Put me down? So what?

Who cares if you disagree with pretribbers. Believe anything you want to! You think you are teachable but not anything from a pretribber! (LOL). Because you know and are beyond us pretribbers with your relationship with God and yet you display pride and arrogance within that. How is that possible? I'm no Moses but I know the Lord somewhat and we can sit and trade Testimonies all night long and maybe you can tell me why the Lord God does these things for me if I am so bible illiterate? All I am telling these people here is, you better take Pre-Trib seriously and be watching for the Lord Jesus sooner rather than later. (That upsets you & your partner to no end! Why is that?

Come on bro let's trade some Testimonies! Not conversion Testimonies, or your inversion testimony, but what good God is doing for you in your life since you became born again and picked up the plow...

The Lord sent an Angel (looked like a man) to my garage sale and way overpaid me for household junk ($2400), He delivered to my home 2 pounds of Gourmet coffee beans when I was out, He came and spoke audibly to me and asked for me to pray for someone who needed help, He hid me from the Police when they were searching for me with 3 teams to arrest me and I was on foot. They never found me! He supernaturally changed my NIV Bible into a NKJV Bible (and this one has two witnesses besides myself, Another time the Lord had a staranger who didnt know me call me and give me accurate financial advice, another time He had a stranger call me and tell me to give away my business and move to Ohio....

Which one(s) would you like to hear about? One thing about the Lord and how He does miracles for people is, He always confirms that it was Him and this is real. I have lots more Testimonies than those but I aint bragging so that's enough. So if I am so wrong about watching for Jesus...why doesnt He have Holy Spirit steer me into all truth? Why does He do these things for me if I so deluded? That don't make sense!

How many Testimoies do you have my friend? Because if you are so much closer to the Lord than I am and know all things...then you certainly have even more Testimonies than I do, right? I'm just a deluded peon in front you and your priest. So yeah, let's hear some Testimonies from you! I can't wait to hear your Testimonies!

This is the kind of nonsense you come up with on a regular basis. Who said you shouldn't look for Jesus before He comes? Not me. You're just making things up. What does that say about you? I pointed out that we should ALSO be looking and watching out that we're not deceived as Jesus said to do (Matt 24:4). There are certain things that scripture says would happen before Jesus comes, such as a mass falling away from the faith and a significant increase in wickedness, so we should look for those things that tell us when His return is near. If we think those things are already happening, then by all means we should start looking for Jesus while also remembering to look out for false prophets and false Christs and such like Jesus talked about.

I must have missed that post of yours. This thread has been going fast. Would you kindly reference this post for me as an example of you telling people to watch for Jesus?

You make it impossible to take you seriously. I would if you actually acted serious and actually backed up your claims with scripture while exegeting it and showing clearly how and why you interpret it as you do. But, you never do that. You seem to be completely incapable of defending your doctrine.

No sir, I cal BS on this what you said. There was one day that you forcefully restrained yourself from talking like a punk and we were headed that direction but as soon as your partner & personal priest chimed in, you lost it and your mouth went wild again ignoring what I wrote and agreeing with your girlfriend that we pretribbers are all in a state of delusion. So we never got that far because you jumped ship on a reasonable conversation and began holding yourself above all others again and not responding to the scriptures and discussion. SO I stopped. You bet I did. You aint worth my effort. But I'm not running from you. You & the so called priest arent chasing the truth away. So it's up to you if you can ever muster being serious again?

What in the world are you talking about? I think you dislike me and think I'm evil (LOL!) just because you have a false understanding of something I've said. I've NEVER told you to not watch for the Lord. Not once! All I've told you is that there are certain things that scripture says would happen before He comes and we should watch for those things. He wasn't going to come until those things happen first (2 Thess 2:3). Once those things happen or start happening (like the falling away Paul referenced in 2 Thess 2) then we can watch for the Lord to come.

No I dont dislike you. Lately when I respond to you, it isnt really to you that I speak to but what is behind you. (Ephesians 6).

So you never said to not watch for Jesus huh? This thread is named "The absurdity of pretrib logic" and you have been in full agreement with the OP all through the thread.
You almost sound like you want to distance yourself from him and his dont have to watch for the Lord doctrine.

So whatever. I am still here. Too bad you fellows dont work and play well with others like scripture says to. ( I contacted you Kiddiegarten teacher and she told me that was on your report card!) (sic). I could already see it.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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During the trib…
Unbelievers shall “unwillingly” be killed.
Believers during the Trib, shall “willingly” be killed
Believers during a supposed time of tribulation after the rapture? Where do you get this nonsense from? Did you read my post? I went through Luke 17:26-37 where Jesus talked about how the scope of destruction at His coming when the rapture occurs (one taken, one left) can be compared to the flood in Noah's day and the destruction of Sodom in Lot's day. Tell me, how many unbelievers survived those events? None. How many repented and became believers after Noah entered the ark and after Lot went out of Sodom? NONE. Your belief does NOT line up with what Jesus taught in Matthew 24:35-39 and Luke 17:26-37. Please go through those passages and show how you can possibly reconcile them with what you're saying.

The Raptured have already “willingly” given their Life unto God…and no longer occupy the face of the Earth while the tribulation and wrath from heaven is Occurring.

What do you think CRUCIFIED with Christ means?

How many times is a man REQUIRED TO BODILY DIE? —— ONCE!
Where is any of this described in Matthew 24 or Luke 17 where Jesus compares the destruction at His coming and the rapture that occurs at that time to the destruction that occurred after Noah entered the ark and after Lot went out of Sodom?

WHO is SAVED….and WHEN?
The FAITHFUL WHO willingly GIVE their Bodily Life unto God.
Saved WHEN? Right after their Bodily life is given unto Death, to the Lord God.

IOW…a DEATH MUST occur for believers….BEFORE they are SAVED, QUICKENED…

Some ARE saved…by proxy so to speak..having vowed their life unto the Lord God…crucified with Christ…called a LIVING Sacrifice…WHICH BTW…is the crux of the whole GOOD NEWS OF THE NT….!!
Guaranteed, a surety of SALVATION BEFORE PHYSICAL DEATH…being crucified with Christ!
For goodness sakes, I don't need to be told how someone is saved. That isn't the topic here. Are you just trying to distract from the fact that you have nothing to offer in response to the points I made? Tell me where Jesus taught that anyone will survive when He comes and one is taken and one is left? How does your view agree with the comparisons Jesus made to Noah's day when the flood destroyed all unbelievers and Lot's day when fire destroyed everyone left in Sodom?
 

grafted branch

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Spiritual Belief is NOT ciphering between this and that….It is simply TRUSTING TO BELIEVE ALL OF GODS WORD IS TRUE…PERIOD…
No ciphering between this and that.
I agree, logic doesn’t play a role when it comes to whether a person believes in God or not, that’s why the term elect is sometimes used. I suppose a person who believes in free will would conclude that a person must use logic to see that it’s better to believe in Jesus than not to believe. People should be able to look at creation and come to a logical conclusion that there is a God and thus be without excuse but to believe in the God of the Bible, a person must be one of the elect.

However, Amill, Premill, Preterist, and others can all be elect and have faith but come to different understandings. There probably aren’t two people on the planet that completely agree on every single verse. I think we are all incorrect somewhere but if a true Christian knew where they were incorrect they would abandon what is incorrect and change their view.

So, since Premill is convinced they are correct, Amill is convinced they are correct, and so on, I use my mind to logically determine which interpretation is correct, I can’t simply believe another person’s interpretation, I have to compare scripture with scripture and pray for God to give my mind the wisdom. Of course I think the Bible is without errors but our methods of interpreting the Bible have to be scrutinized and certain methods have to be eliminated when they allow contradictions to occur. Logic plays a significant role in this process.
 
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MA2444

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Give us a break! You do not even know what that looks like. You are totally incapable of exegeting Scripture. That's because you need to know what it says before you explain it. That seems to be a bridge too far for you.

I think it's funny how you use inversion tactics, lol.

But darnit, I guess I gotta drop outta the thread cuz you just proved me wrong by teaching me that the bridge is too far for me to understand. Oh great Pastor, now I shall follow you....NOT!

You even tried to be reasonable one day for part of a day. You never let the conversation go anywhere before you freak and shreik like some kind of hurt woman or something.

Why is tis the only topic you hardly talk about? WHy is so important to you that pretribbers who disagree with you to come to your way of thinking and stop watching for the Lord Jesus to come? You act like this is an OCD thing for you. Geez, let it go man. So we disagree, so what?


Blahblahblah, I can hear it coming lol.
 

Freedm

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It should be chilly for you. You foolishly deny that we are still looking forward to what Paul referenced in Titus 2:13:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
I used to believe everything you say, and I even argued in favour of your same arguments, and yet, here I am. What does that tell you? No one moves from understanding to ignorance, only from ignorance to understanding.

Maybe I'll set up a preterism thread and we can chat there. I mis-read the title on this thread when I started, so I apologize for the hijack. It was not my intention. Adios muchachos! :locked1:
 

Taken

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Well, yeah! No kidding. What I'm trying to get you to address is what does His wrath result in as it relates to unbelievers? According to Jesus in Matthew 24:35-39 and Luke 17:26-37, they will all be destroyed when He comes and the rapture occurs just as occurred with the flood in Noah's day and the fire that came down on Sodom in Lot's day. So, do you agree with Jesus about that? Do you believe all unbelievers will be destroyed by His wrath just as they were in the flood and in Sodom?


Do you have to resort to this nonsense? Can you not speak like an adult? No one here believes that Christians will experience God's wrath and no one here wants that. Okay? Stop acting like anyone wants that, which is ridiculous. I'm trying to get you to address the scope of His wrath that will occur at that point. You think people will survive it and get another chance to repent which is complete nonsense and does not line up with Jesus comparing the wrath that will come at that point to the wrath that occurred in Noah's day and in Lot's day.


Yes, exactly! We all believe this! Do you not understand that? What we disagree on is the scope of destruction that will occur at that point. I say that it will be COMPLETE destruction on the entire earth and you apparently disagree with that? If so, what is your basis for disagreeing with that?


IN brief….
the Life of ALL man’s body is it’s BLOOD.
ALL bodies must die. God requires that.

Any time a body DIES IN BELIEF…it shall be saved…THEN.

During the TRIB..all who reject Belief…SHALL Die…their departed living soul sent to hell.

During the TRIB…some BELIEVING (but not converted IN Christ, shall NOT be Killed…they are called a Remnant. )They shall continue living, reproducing offspring, die….this occurs for 1,000 years, which during these 1,000 years….satan and all fallen angels are NOT on the earth…

They repopulate, establish towns, cities, nations….WHILE the Lord is ruling from His Kingdom (Land) original Israel…from His throne…King David’s throne in Jerusalem.

1,000 years completed….satan loosed, with his demon angels…encourage the Nations of mortals to come against Christ Jesus’ Kingdom….and JUST LIKE NOW….as generations of men are blessed with provisions and wealth and comfort…they drift away from their NEED of God….AND thus the Nations WILL YEILD to Satan’s trickery and engage in a WAR against Christ’s Kingdom…only to be met with…the Power of Gods two edged sword…ie His word that shall smite them…and THEN has the END of Mortal man become Effected….And the Separation of the Divided….WITH and WITHOUT God…commence…Forever.
 
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