CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I'm not twisting the word of God. I am untwisting it. They both look the same. I can see how you might be confused.
The absurdity of Pretrib logic
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Zacharias believed the prophets of Old. His expectation was that the promised Redeemer he, and all Israel had long awaited had come at last. Yes, when Christ was born, like always the nation of Israel still believed He would rule over a physical Kingdom through military might, and did not understand that His Kingdom now would not be physical or on this earth and that He would rule over His Kingdom through His Spiritual army and not a physical army that would be for all believers, both Jew and Gentile of faith.
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No we all don't! Yes, your analogies are a problem because they come from your own imagination and are not from the Bible.
Taken
Well-Known Member
The absurdity of Pretrib logic
The absurdity that understanding spiritual events ARE understood by the LOGIC conjured up in a created mans Carnal mind !
Glory to God,
Taken
The absurdity that understanding spiritual events ARE understood by the LOGIC conjured up in a created mans Carnal mind !
Glory to God,
Taken
Taken
Well-Known Member
The Bible is Gods APPROVED KNOWLEDGE…
UNDERSTANDING Gods Approved Knowledge….ONLY comes to a man FROM the Lord GodHimself.
A man attempting to UNDERSTAND Gods Approved Knowledge via the man CARNAL MINDFUL LOGIC….is a FAIL!
You bring up “LOGIC”….you can not believe what is Spiritual Understanding…because You are relying on your own Carnal Logical Mind…which IS A FAIL.
1 Cor 2:
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Pretribulation Rapture IS a Spiritual Event…
Expressly FOR Spirits BORN OF GODS SEED
And the SAME whose SOUL IS SAVED
And the SAME whose BODILY LIFE was ALREADY given in Death unto the Lord God.
CALLED “IN” Christ…
RAISED UP, by the POWER of CHRIST, to meet their Lord in the air….and forever BE with their Lord…(So…uh huh…when He returns…then so also shall THEY return with Him)
THEY…(body, soul, spirit) are called having been MADE “WHOLE”….and NOT subject to endure Gods tribulations and wrath that shall be sent down from Heaven UPON the whole Earth.
NO where does Scripture teach…
The SAVED and QUICKENED “IN” Christ are ON the earth, teaching, preaching, experiencing tribulations from Heaven, experiencing wrath from Heaven…
It will never make “logical sense” to your Carnal Mind….which IS AGAINST GOD…
It is a Spiritual event for men who have been MADE WHOLE…
Glory to God,
Taken
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Look in the mirror. As if you don't do that yourself? LOL.
LOL. As if we should take the guy seriously who makes up his own doctrines, such as a supposed 7,000 year plan of God and other nonsense like that.
That's bad news for you because of your false teachings.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't ask for clarification if I wasn't interested in what you were trying to say. But, it looks like you're not interested in trying to clarify what you were saying. Okay then.
Who was fighting? I was just trying to figure out what you were intending to say and that's all.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
All opinion and no scriptural evidence to back it up. As usual. This is a waste of time. The HEAVENLY Jerusalem is not on earth. Being redeemed FROM earth means you're not on earth. Your arguments are complete nonsense and are a clear case of you making scripture say what you want it to say and not worth my time. Remind me again what biblical source you actually trust? I know you don't trust any English translations. Is it just your imagination that you put your trust in then?
What are you talking about? Where did I make any mention of LOGIC?
Where in Scripture might I find this pretribulation rapture spiritual event?
This statement too appears odd to me. Scripture shows me that a man who is born of the SEED (Christ) is born again of His Spirit. The everlasting life the spirit of man is given when they are born again is not called a rapture, it's called being born again of the Spirit. Christ describes this in Jo 3 when speaking to Nicodemus. Telling him that no man can know (see) or enter the Kingdom of God without being born again of His Spirit. When man is born again, he has not been raptured, his spirit that was naturally dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2) has been made eternally alive through the Spirit sent from Christ within him (Jo 14:17).
Those who have been quickened through the Spirit of Christ in them, having been spiritually born again, will experience tribulation, not from heaven, but from all manner of evil beings who are of their father, the Devil. This shall come to those believers who faithfully teach and preach the Word of God (Gospel).
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
This is a very ironic thing for you to say to others.
The pretrib rapture theory absolutely does NOT come from spiritual discernment provided by the Holy Spirit, that is for certain. No one even believed that nonsense until the 1800s when someone conjured it up in his imagination.
No post-trib believes that any Christian will experience God's wrath. That is not a valid argument to make to support pre-trib.
Again, no one here, including all post-tribs, believe that God's wrath will affect any believers. The only time when believers will be taken off the earth to avoid God's wrath is when Jesus return and burns up the entire earth (2 Peter 3:10-12) which will be "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3).
The pre-trib rapture theory ONLY can make sense to the carnal mind.
What do you think it means to be "MADE WHOLE" exactly? Do you think some Christians will miss the supposed pre-trib rapture? If so, where is that taught anywhere in scripture?
Logic is basically correct thinking. Since God is true and correct, logical thinking imitates God. Logic is not a physical attribute, it is a spiritual attribute.
Here is a logical statement, if A is true then condition B occurs.
Here is logic in the Bible …
Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Gentiles being the seed of Abraham is meant spiritually yet Paul uses logic, an if/then conditional statement, as a method of coming to a truth.
The Bible is full of logical statements, I don’t know how a person can have a sound understanding without using logic.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Pardon me…that was WPM
1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
God is Spirit…Gods SEED, WORD, POWER, BEING, IS SPIRIT.
A mans spirit BORN AGAIN, is BORN AGAIN of Gods SEED!
1 John 3:9
….
No kidding.
The Rapture is the WHOLE of a new creature being RAISED UP above the EARTH … BECAUSE such a man IS NOT SUBJECT TO THE TRIBULATIONS and WRATH that shall be send down from Heaven UPON the Earth….SAME AS IT WAS IN Noah’s day…when God sent Tribulations and Wrath upon the Earth and Noah was NOT subjected to the Tribulations and Wrath send down from Heaven and INSTEAD Noah was RISEN UP ABOVE the EARTH…
No kidding!! He is called having been MADE WHOLE….and it is the Same who SHALL BE RAPTURED….RAISED UP above the earth…WHEN Tribulations and Wrath are sent down from Heaven!
Those who ARE saved and quickened EXPERIENCE TRIBULATIONS DAILY…from OTHER MEN….open eyes….look, see, experience the world’s power sitters …. Oppressing peoples Liberty DAILY!
God sent tribulations and wrath down from Heaven ONCE…flooding the whole earth…
And where was Faithful Noah? Gen 7:17
Above the mountain tops, above the face of the earth….and what is around the mountain tops? Clouds!
A SECOND tribulations and wrath SHALL come down from Heaven…And again the Faithful shall be risen up to the clouds above the Earth.
Rapture Wimpism
Any student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.
In the NT, we see in the book of Acts a complete account of how the disciples and Christ's followers were hated and persecuted as Jesus had predicted (Matthew 24:9). In Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). In Acts 5, they were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41). In Acts 7, Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). In Acts 8:1 "There was a great persecution against the church." In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into prison. In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, and brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Paul confessed that prior to his conversion, he had "imprisoned and beaten in every synagogue" those who believed in Christ.
There was, and is, no lack of tribulation for the NT Church.
But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture wimps.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.
The following partial enumeration of NT tribulation references...:
John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
...makes it clear that there is no room for rapture wimps in the Christian Church. In solidarity with other believers in parts of the world who suffer tribulation even as we read this, we must be prepared to, as did and do these, “fight to win the prize and sail through bloody seas”, as we see the hymnwriter further pen.
God has promised...:
John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.
But the promise is only for those who refuse to be rapture wimps.
The comparison is apt. Everything Jesus predicted would happen, happened. Even the signs and wonders. Bet you didn't know that.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Logic is contending between this Knowledge and that Knowledge of which one to believe…the ciphering between this Knowledge and that Knowledge occurs IN THE Carnal MIND.
The Carnal Mind IS AGAINST GOD…
Spiritual Belief is NOT ciphering between this and that….It is simply TRUSTING TO BELIEVE ALL OF GODS WORD IS TRUE…PERIOD…
No ciphering between this and that.
The Bible is SIMPLY FACTS.
The Spiritual Understanding of Gods Approved FACTS…is ONLY given a man, From the Lord God Himself…
1 Chr 22:
[12] Only the LORD give thee wisdom and understanding, and give thee charge concerning Israel, that thou mayest keep the law of the LORD thy God.
Glory to God,
Taken
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Do you agree with Jesus when He indicated that just as "the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be", which means all unbelievers will be killed when Jesus comes and we're caught up to Him just as all unbelievers were killed by the flood in Noah's day? Jesus even said that heaven and earth will pass away at that point. Just like Peter taught as well:
2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Amen! The idea that Christians will be taken off of the earth to avoid tribulation for a period of 7 years or whatever is complete nonsense when you consider that Christians have been going through tribulation for almost 2,000 years now.
Here is one more verse to add to the list:
2 Timothy 3:12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
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